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Shut Up and Listen.....

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posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 08:45 PM
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If we leave Iraq now... what then?

I am hearing a lot of people around me, on the internet, and in the media screaming “get out of Iraq now”. Is it that simple?

Has anyone stopped long enough to consider the implications of withdrawing all U.S. military and personnel from Iraq?

Fine, make a case that makes sense please? Why should we leave now? There are so many bitching about the war in Iraq, and frankly, I am tired of it. Give me some logical reasons. What do we gain by leaving now? Why would this be a good thing at this point in time? Why is leaving so damned urgent?

If we leave Iraq now, have we not given radical Islamic terrorists a victory? And now a nation which they can use to train even more future terrorists, and a base from which to launch even more attacks against the west?

No matter what took us to this war.. We cannot simply walk away now.. Can we?

If it happens, and we do leave what has the U.S.A. accomplished in Iraq? What have we gained from our own blood spilled in the sands there? Has good come from the deaths of thousands on both sides? Tell me, how can we walk away?

Because if it is possible, I am all for it, if not... please shut up and support the war!

We can fight them there now, or here at home later, we can feed them democracy until they like it, we can help rebuild their war-torn nation, and in the ultimate end.. For what?

Security?

Are we feeling more secure now?

Are the calls to bring home our troops more of a cry of shame? Could it be that some of us are actually ashamed of this war?

Thank you for reading my rant, and perhaps before it gets moved or trashed, someone will be brave enough to answer any one of the questions asked here.





ESP




posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 08:50 PM
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The easy solution is to actually train Iraq's own army like Rumsfeld said we were going to do (but hasn't happened yet despite plenty of time), and then gradually pull out bit by bit while allowing the Iraqis to take responsibility for the terrorism in their own country.

What do we have to gain by staying? Is killing more people a gain? Or letting more of our soldiers die?

But maybe returning total control back over to the Iraqis is a gain. At least, a moral one that would maybe help us restore a certain respectability that we have lost as a people.



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 08:57 PM
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Put it this way. You have to leave eventually. What would be the difference between sooner rather than later? The alternative is to never leave. is that what you would like?

Also, I don't appreciate being told to shut up.

[edit on 25-8-2005 by cargo]



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 09:03 PM
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We were the ones who decided to invade them. I don't necessarily agree with that decision, but as long as it was us who started it, we shouldn't back out until things are better for the people there.

If you *naughty word* something up, you fix it. That is what we need to do.

[edit on 26-8-2005 by alien]



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 09:10 PM
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We should leave soon, but not now, imo. We need to find a clearly marked watershed event, such as the reduction in frequency of terror attacks to something managable by Iraq's own developing security forces, before we leave. I believe this will be possible if the US works with other countries to make them see the benefits of a stable, productive Iraq, rather than treating it (as they currently are) as a "winner takes the spoils" situation, leaving out those countries which were against the war and threatening Iraq's neighbours such as Iran and Syria (which isn't to say in some cases a hard line towards these nations isn't justified.)

Pulling out now would be just plain ridiculous though, I agree.

-koji K.



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 09:28 PM
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Wow, I thought we’d hear from some of those screaming for a quick exit from Iraq by now. Perhaps they are all hanging out in Texas now?

It is all to easy for the “armchair Generals” these days. They can dictate policy from a political point of view, yet offer so few REAL solutions. Watch them run from facts and logic.

It is all to easy for us, for everyone to be critical of this war.. From a safe distance. However I find it more than shameful that so many seem to believe the blood shed there was so far a waste and that all the sacrifice on all sides has been based on lies, so we should now just drop everything and run away.

This kind of talk will only serve the enemies that will one day bite the collective ass of all of us, unless we can bite our lips and support the fight.

Then again, maybe America needs another 9/11 .. Yet another perhaps even more dramatic wake up call.

We should stay the course.. And not be lead by those who will be critical because of pure political motives.


ESP



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 09:35 PM
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Good post.


Of course we can't leave now.

BTW - I LOVE JAGGER!!!!!!!!!!!!



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 10:16 PM
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Originally posted by American Mad Man
Good post.


Of course we can't leave now.

BTW - I LOVE JAGGER!!!!!!!!!!!!


Thank you, and CHEERS!

This one is for all of those brave men and women who face these enemies, the struggle for democracy, the pain of distance between friends and family, despite all who have forgotten them.

I am proud of them all, as each and every one of you should be.

They will fight on despite the politics at home.

If we give up the fight, we give up on them and paint an even larger target on them and ourselves.

I would love nothing more than to see each and everyone of these brave Americans come home.. and the sooner the better, but not one second before we can say "Job Done"!!!


ESP



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 10:29 PM
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We pulled out of Vietnam. Or rather we were run out...either way we left and not only did the country pull together but they ended up a few years later coming to the rescue (militarilly) of the Cambodians. Remember Pol Pot?

Its western arrogance that thinks people of other cultures and colors are incapable of deciding and enacting their own destiny.

What the west is REALLY scared of is losing the ability to push its weight around because its super powerful army got showed up by disorganized militias....and everyone knows it!

Too bad....you reap what you sow.


There is no enemy anywhere - Lao Tse



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 10:35 PM
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How can you walk away from killing? Since when is killing other humans mandatory or involuntary? Of course you can walk away.

The violence initiated by the U.S. coalition invasion and occupational forces is going to continue no matter what. This is certain. The only thing that can be done to minimize the violence taking place is for one group to leave and end their killing. If its not going to be the rebellion, then it has to be the occupational force.

Create an Iraqi reserve in a U.S. territory and allow those who wish to become refugees to escape the violence in Iraq to leave. From there you can screen them and allow them to become U.S. citizens, be deported, or remain in the reserve. And of course, pull completely out of Iraq. Afghanistan too while you're at it.

Thats about all that can be done.

[edit on 25-8-2005 by Frith]



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 10:48 PM
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Whatever argument you are trying discuss, I think you nullify it when you start with: "Shut Up and Listen....." It seems as if you are not willing to listen to an opposing view, so why should they listen to you?



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 10:50 PM
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I don't care about the Iraqi people. If they didn't like being ruled by a tyrant they could have revolted just like our forefathers did or any other country that says ENOUGH!

What I do care about is the lives of our troops. I saw a sign by a protester that read; How is death support? I'm not willing to sacrifice any more of our precious young people for some Macho ideal that is just illusion anyway.

Now if it's about oil; thats another story isn't it? Sacrifice all those kids so I can continue to drive my SUV. Painful sarcasm no?

One more time I Don't care about the Iraqi people. I do care about our troops. Bring them home alive not in body bags or all tore up.

It's not cutting and running; it's called choosing your battles wisely.



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 11:12 PM
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Originally posted by Frith
The only thing that can be done to minimize the violence taking place is for one group to leave and end their killing.


Sorry to quote you bro, but this is another thing people keep saying that bothers me. The Jihadists are killing Iraqis. It is a war between them, that unfortunately, America is partly responsible for. Removing the heavy guns keeping the jihadists in check will only make matters worse. We need to give that power to the ISF, but that takes time. Its not just us versus them.



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 11:12 PM
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I think you should take a second look at your thread title and consider changing it.

After that, I may read your thread.....................



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 08:08 AM
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every war that america starts they havent Succeeded in their primeoral objective. why wont they learn their lesson.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 08:52 AM
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Originally posted by EvilSockPuppet
I would love nothing more than to see each and everyone of these brave Americans come home.. and the sooner the better, but not one second before we can say "Job Done"!!!
ESP


How does one differentiate between "Job Done" and "Mission Accomplished"?

What is the "Job/Mission"? Do you really know?

I don't think we can just turn and run at this point. We've made a horrible mess that needs to be cleaned up.

It all boils down to one thing for me. I do not trust those who are executing this war. I can't help but think that many of these powerfull people are helplessly addicted to power and wealth and actually need help dealing with their addiction.

I think, in the end, this war will cause irreparable damage to the US.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 09:03 AM
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A simple and effective solution..

Take a 'pro-western' ambitious dissident...give them plenty of support militarily and financially...give assistance to train a national army to put down the insurgency... turn a blind-eye to methods of social control to keep the populus subordinate to prevent further 'terrorist' activity...and finally, as a fully fledged 'client-state' get them to resolve territory and resource disputes with neighbours on your behalf to 'maintain regional stability'

....ermmm, now i think about it, isn't that why we put Saddam there in the first place???

[edit on 26-8-2005 by timski]



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 02:23 PM
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I especially like the comments from the user above me.

Very stimulating.

6 more posts!

Odysseus



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by timski
A simple and effective solution..

Take a 'pro-western' ambitious dissident...give them plenty of support militarily and financially...give assistance to train a national army to put down the insurgency... turn a blind-eye to methods of social control to keep the populus subordinate to prevent further 'terrorist' activity...and finally, as a fully fledged 'client-state' get them to resolve territory and resource disputes with neighbours on your behalf to 'maintain regional stability'

....ermmm, now i think about it, isn't that why we put Saddam there in the first place???

[edit on 26-8-2005 by timski]


Excellent point. Very few are willing to look at America's involvement in bringing about the mess the world finds itself in today.

There is evil in the world today and America's enemies do not have a monopoly.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 03:45 PM
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After returning from overseas just a few months ago, it became immediately obvious the American public has no clue as to the true situation.

- The US is isolated from the rest of the world, separated by two oceans and a language barrier.
- Most educated people in the world speak multiple languages; some of us barely speak one.
- Most Europeans are educated in history, geography, and world events. If you recall back to the days before the Bush/Gore election, one of the candicates (ahem) failed to identify entire nations and their leaders.
- Europeans receive over 200 news channels from around the world, of which our ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, and CNN are simply 5 and not well respected at that.
- We Americans were shielded from the explicit horrors of 9/11 which were broadcast in other nations. Frankly, I was grateful not to see people leaping from the WTC, but yes, we were protected from that knowledge.
- Likewise, we are shielded from the horrors happening in Iraq. For example, when a wedding party was bombed, Rumsfield said the US was looking into this doubtful situation, but in the rest of the world, the splattered bodies of the bride, groom, families and children were available from Reuters and other international agencies.
- We have no clue how hated we have become. No American travels anywhere in Iraq without bodyguards. Americans live in guarded compounds or guarded hotels. News cameras show reporters talking to 'common people' which are generally heavily guarded staged events. (We aren't told that this is also true in Saudi Arabia and some other places.)
- During the Iraqi election campaign, the parties ran ads claiming 'vote for us and we'll outst the Americans'.
- Iraqis are cynical about our brand of freedom and democracy. For example, our administration banned the first two political parties which tried to register (one religious, one socialist).
- The US also banned Aljazeera, not because they were anti-US, but because they wouldn't broadcast the propaganda Rumsfield wanted. Instead, the US has spent our tax money to build a TV studio to put out our administration's message, which has become thoroughly distrusted.
- We are breeding more and more anti-US terrorists every day. That is unlikely to change.
- We are NOT winning. This is the biggest message that the American people aren't getting. We aren't told this because our liberal press doesn't want us to feel bad. We are, effectively, kept in an isolation of actual happenings unless we step outside our limitations.

Do I have the answers about when and how to pull out? No. All I have tried to do is lend a little balance to the pictures painted by our liberal media, and trust that we can find a solution from this mess.



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