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Anti-War Protests Target Wounded at Army Hospital

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posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 01:38 PM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
BH, it seems you've been spared the pain of body trauma and don't realize how much of a spiritual and emotional drain it can be.


You assume way too much, Thomas Crowne.



They have a "right". Well, that makes it A-ok, doesn't it?


Yes, legally, it does.



That doesn't mean the demonstrators' actions are decent, right or honorable. The soldiers are honorable, on the other hand. The less than honorable crowd has no respect and shows no respect. That has no bearing on their "right", it simply speaks volumes about those people.


It almost sounds like you're suggesting that soldiers are never 'dishonorable', which we all know isn't true. It would be very easy and simplistic to put ALL the soldiers into the 'honorable' camp and ALL the protesters into the 'dishonorable' camp, which is what it sounds like you're doing there.

But it's just not that black-and-white, Thomas Crowne. And I think you know that. It's all muddy and brown and swirled around. All groups, whether soldiers, protesters, politicians or preachers, behave at times with honor and at times without.




posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 01:43 PM
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So what's your point, BH? Because not all soldiers are honorable, all should be punished? Because not all soldiers are honorable, we should assume nasty, dishonorable things about them until they can somehow prove our assumptions wrong? I understand where you're coming in making a qualifier for TC's point, but I don't understand the purpose of it in the context of this thread.

Also, we accept that legally this is acceptable. It is a legal protest, they've filled out all the paperwork and gotten their permit. That's not really the issue here in the thread, either. The question is to ethics. Is it right ethically for them to be doing this in the location they've chosen to protest?



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 01:52 PM
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It's not that I am not callous or indifferent to the patients in the hospital. I am a generous and compassionate person.

I think the biggest factor is that I simply withhold judgment. I don't agree with everything war protesters do and I wouldn't choose to protest in front of a hospital if I thought people would be offended. But that's me and since I'm the boss of me, I get to choose what I do, see? I simply don't get to run these people's lives. It's really none of my business. They're adults, they're within the law, they're standing up for their beliefs, they're NOT HURTING ANYONE. So I support them.

Just because you disagree with their beliefs and their tactics, doesn't mean you get to be the moral or honor police. Sure you can disagree with them, call them names, protest them, I'm not stopping you. But you're trying to stop me (or make me wrong?) defending them and you don't get to do that, either.


I won't stop defending and supporting them unless and until they hurt someone. It is their Constitutional right and that is my litmus test.


Edited to add:


Originally posted by junglejake
So what's your point, BH? ... I understand where you're coming in making a qualifier for TC's point...


Then you got my point. Nothing more to it than that.



The question is to ethics. Is it right ethically for them to be doing this in the location they've chosen to protest?


Explained earlier in this post. (I just saw your post)


[edit on 25-8-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 02:13 PM
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There is not a single soldier in that hospital that would deny you the right to stand where ever you wish and protest to your heart is content. In fact everyone of them would give their life to see that you always have that right. Everyone of them looked death in the face not because they support Bush or not even because they believe in the Iraq war. It is because they swore an oath to the United States of America and to the Commander in Chief. Everyone needs to realize that soldiers don't make policy. When you protest soldiers you might as well be preaching to the choir. Do you think that we want to get our a** blown off in some smelly, nasty, god forsaken arm pit of a country because we love the smell of powder and rotting flesh with our morning coffee? So you may say that soldiers have a choice and can choose not to fight. Then the words Honor, Duty and Country have absolutely no meaning to you. Presidents and other politicans come and go at the whim of the voters. Politicans make policy. It is American Policy that put soldiers in Iraq. Protest the policy and the policy makers, they are in a place called 'The District of Columbia'. It is suppose to house a government of the people, for the people and by the people. Hold these folks accountable for every dead, wounded or maimed soldier. Line your flag draped coffins on the Capitol steps so that our Honorable Senators and Congressmen have to step over them to make their policy. Hang banners and yell your slogans infront of the White House, at the National Monument, the Lincoln and Washington Memorials. Then when you are done and ready to head home to your warm and comfortable life, take an extra day to visit the new WW2 Memorial, the Vietnam Memorial, the Tombs on the Unknown soldiers and a nice little garden of stone, the Arlington National Cemetary. Stand there among all the fallen soldiers that paid the ultimate price and then just maybe the words, Honor, Duty and Country might mean something.

[edit on 25-8-2005 by Yorga]

[edit on 25-8-2005 by Yorga]



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 02:15 PM
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But obviously you have an opinion. We are here in an intellectual community discussing issues on many different sides. No one here is trying to stop you from defending them. They're pointing out why they believe the protesters are wrong and supporting their reasoning. If called into question, they're addressing the points raised just as I am with what you just posted, BH. I'm not trying to stop you from believing that way or even posting your opinions and thoughts. I'm pointing out the flaws I see in your arguement just as you are mine. That's the nature of debate


So don't be silent, you contribute well to threads and debates by stating your opinion and justifying it. At the same time, I'm sure the rest of us will do the same. No one here is being the moral or honor police; we're stating how this contests with our own beliefs, and explaining why.



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 02:26 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake
I'm not trying to stop you from believing that way or even posting your opinions and thoughts.


Oh, I know you're not. I was responding to my good buddy, Thomas Crowne:


Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
There is no decent way to support or defend those types of people. Don't even try.


Sorry for the confusion. We had a couple U2Us going at the time.




So don't be silent...


pffft!
Not a chance!



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 02:29 PM
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maybe the protestors should head for the Arlington memorial where soldiers have died in Iraq. thats the best place to show opinion and views to the media that would no doubt record it all.



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by Yorga
Everyone needs to realize that soldiers don't make policy.


I think most people realize that. It's not the soldiers these protesters are upset about. They support the soldiers.



When you protest soldiers you might as well be preaching to the choir.


Nobody is protesting the soldiers. They're protesting the war that wounded so many of the soldiers in that hospital. They're shining light on the fact that so many soldiers are being wounded and nobody's really talking or thinking about that. That's their position, from what I understand from the article. They're sympathizing with the soldiers, in their minds, anyway.



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 03:03 PM
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As someone who has suffered traumatic disabling injury, I can attest to the emotional trauma it causes and the mental challenges it presents. I was never in the conventional military on active duty during wartime, but I can imagine the combination of both factors would be doubly devastating, at least. That is why I don't personally approve of the site of this protest, legal or not.
It is bad enough if you have lost a limb or limbs, or feel like you are being struck by lightning every time you try to move, if you can, but how about if you have a bunch of folks protesting vehemently the very activities you were involved in at the time of your injury while you are at it. I don't care if they say they are on your side or not, it makes things worse for the injured individual. That is why I think they are very possibly doing these injured soldiers harm by their presence and activity. They should take it somewhere else, out of respect and decency.

Respect and decency. If any of that is still around, it is in short supply, except, of course, here on ATS.

[edit on 25-8-2005 by Icarus Rising]



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 03:18 PM
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First off, if everyone understood that soldiers don't make policy they wouldn't be protesting outside a Military Hospital that cares for the wounded. If the protestors care so damn much about the wounded then they should go inside and meet them, talk to them and thank them for there sacrifice.

Secondly they wouldn't line the streets with flag draped coffins so that wounded soldiers can see them from thier hospital rooms. Now that is real f****** support for the troops.

Thirdly, if they are so damn concerned about shining some light on the matter why are they delebrately stalking the families! Yes, I said stalking. They time their protest so that they are around when the soldiers families come to visit. Now that shows real f****** concern.

Fourth, I saw this same sorta concern when I came home from Nam. You can try to whitewash it as much as you wish but I don't buy it. These people are deliberatley targeting the wounded for shock value. Anyone who is part of this type of protesting or supports this type of protesting is lower than the bastards that put those soldiers in that hospital to begin with.


[edit on 25-8-2005 by Yorga]

[edit on 25-8-2005 by Yorga]



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 03:46 PM
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I do not agree that we had reason to invade Iraq. Saddam was not planning a chem/bio/nuke attack on the USA. He didn't have the means to procure the complex equipment needed to produce plutonium, sarin/vx or botcholism toxin (Quoting: Colon Powell) let alone the means in which to deliver a WMD.
We are in Iraq for one reason and one reason only and that is OIL.

I give 2
to these protestors for taking the protest to those that have the power to try to help change this situation, change the governments idea that we can simply take what we want and it's rather funny to me that these soldiers are the ones that would probably be most open to a new idea.

Liberals are not trying to kill anyone. We just want you to hear our side of things and see that it is the right thing to do. Dropping bombs on cities and sending 100's of thousands of soldiers to kill people and take things that don't belong to you isn't my idea of "moral values".



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 03:54 PM
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This is a mistake because it gives the pro war movement a stick to beat the anti war folks with.

The protesters may well be right. but the words 'protesting' and 'hospital' and 'wounded' just sound bad together. Also if i were wouned i wouldnt want to see a bunch of people shouting outside regardless of what they were saying.



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 04:03 PM
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DjOsiris,


This thread is not about whether or not you support the war in Iraq or why we are there. It has nothing to do with your and anyone else's right to protest. Damn you can protest till the cows come home and I wouldn't so much as blink and eye. I don't give a rat's behind about your politics or how you feel about Bush and the US Government. I simply don't care, PERIOD! It is about wounded soldiers and Jackasses preying on the suffering of those soldiers and their families. There is a time no matter how much you are against policy that you have let human decency come through. Maybe these soldiers agree with the war, maybe they don't but they have ever right to be left the f*** alone as you do to protest. Where is the human compassion for those poor men and women and thier families.
God help us if this is consider acceptable behavior.


[edit on 25-8-2005 by Yorga]



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 04:05 PM
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This is the same BS I came home too.

There is a time and a place form everything. This was not the time nor the place.

I support the right of anyone to protest, hell I FOUGHT for that right.

But having the RIGHT to do something doesnt make it the right thing to do.



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 04:48 PM
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Same wacko "I have the right to" protesting by the anti-war movement as they did during the Vietnam war, except this time around, it comes with the added cliche' of "we support the troops".
What Our Wounded Soldiers First See Upon Arriving Home...

Won't be long before they will be spitting on those troops returning home, just as they did during the Vietnam war.






seekerof

[edit on 25-8-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 04:59 PM
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Heh:

"Mothers don't let your sons grow up to be killers"
"We support the troops"


I was actually suprised to find this letter on Code Pink's website, though:


As an active military person, currently, NOW, in Iraq, I would like to thank you for killing me. By you protesting this, it disables me and the people I work with. We don't get the supplies we need. You are the same people that protest against the war because you are concerned about the troops, and their lack of armor and gear. Well, it is because of organizations like yours that we didn't have it. Thank God that we have a President that cares about the American people, and about the American troops.

From: Brian Danials


I think they thought their response was pretty clever in ignoring the reason we don't have as much equipment and protection in Iraq as we'd like.



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 05:10 PM
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I know some of you think I'm worse than the terrorists who put these soldiers in the hospital beds, but take a few minutes please and read exactly what these protesters are doing. Read about their intentions. Read just a little bit of the 'other side of the story'. A little education never hurt anyone, right?

You've read one obviously slanted article (Protesters Target Wounded?) but I doubt you've educated yourself to both sides of this issue. And as we all know, that's what denying ignorance is all about.

Source



Bring friends, candles, a sign or a banner. It is worth noting that many of the soldiers we have met so far do not support the war, but others do. Take the opportunity to hear their stories and share perspectives.


Source



We vigil to:
-Shed light on the seriously injures
-Support soldiers in their efforts to achieve adequate lifetime disability payments
-Protest unequal health benefits for injured National Guard
-Protest minimizing of numbers of injuries
-Protest budget cuts in soldiers health care
-Protest overall cuts in VA budget
-Protest budget cuts in education and family support programs impacting veterans


Source



Activists see deception in night arrivals at Walter Reed

The activists say the practice seems too much like the White House ban on the filming of honor cordons repatriating war dead to U.S. soil in flag-draped coffins.

“The guys in here are the real cost of the war,” says George Taylor, a former Navy officer and veteran of the 1962 Cuban Blockade, shrugging off the night cold among about two dozen activists outside the Walter Reed gates Tuesday night.

“It’s just shameful that the military would try and sneak them in like this and hope no one notices their wounds,” he adds, as a red minivan sporting a “Support our troops” yellow ribbon passes by. The driver honks the horn, yelling “We support you!” to the activists.

Kevin McCarron, a former Marine intelligence specialist and a veteran of the 1991 Gulf War, said he thinks the late-night admittances are a dishonor to the troops.

“They should be feted as they arrive, honored as heroes, not slipped through the back door like this,” he said.


So it appears that they are talking to the soldiers and that they're not just protesting the war, but very active in the details of taking care of these soldiers after they come back home. Consider, if you are able, that these very protesters might just be the people who get some protection for the very soldiers you are sitting back typing about honoring.

You say you honor and respect the soldiers, well, what are you doing about the fees and the higher perscription drug prices they have to pay?

Granted, this protest location may not be in the absolute best taste according to some, but can you really demonize these people who are dedicated to helping the soldiers you claim to care so much for?

My intent is not to try to change your mind, but to show you something you perhaps haven't considered. That's all.

Peace.



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 05:27 PM
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Although their tactics may not be 'politically correct' at least they are making an effort to help our troops. To give them a voice. Some people think that tying a yellow ribbon around something is enough, but our soldiers need more active participation to ensure that they are treated fairly by our government, either deployed, or when they return home.

Maybe they aren't the best messengers, but at the very least it will get people to talk about the message: our troops need our help, don't let them down.



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 05:36 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Hereticthey're sympathizing with the soldiers, in their minds, anyway.


really, do you think constand reminders of their misfortune and what they sacraficed and the constant noise is a being sympathetic or unharmful?

why does everyone forget this.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

i mean these patients are being denied their right to privacy, happiness, and peace, these protests could be shut down for violating their rights if someone decided to press the issue or sue the protestors.



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 06:13 PM
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Originally posted by namehere

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic they're sympathizing with the soldiers, in their minds, anyway.


really, do you think constand reminders of their misfortune and what they sacraficed and the constant noise is a being sympathetic or unharmful?


Do I think? Man, if I was in the hospital under these conditions - looking down on the bed where my feet used to be would be a constant reminder. I wouldn't need to be reminded. Any other reminders would be moot.

What I would LIKE to be reminded of, though, is that someone I don't even know cares enough about me to devote their time and energy to making sure I'm taken care of financially by the country I freaking lost my legs for!!

As far as the noise? I'm not defending their choice of protest location, and I have been searching to find out more about the lay of the land there at Walter Reed, and I can't find anything, but I SERIOUSLY doubt the soldiers up in their rooms in an Army hospital can hear much of what's going on outside, down on the street where the protesters are allowed to be! It's not like they're 20 feet away, I don't think. Does anyone know?

And finally, I did find a forum of military people and as many appreciate these protesters (and Cindy Sheehan) as here. It's a mixed bag. Some people like it and some don't. That's just the way it is.

Big surprise! It's not RIGHT or WRONG, it just is.


[edit on 25-8-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]



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