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Originally posted by df1
Not really, I usually ignore pointless questions.
Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
Df1,
Yes I know that Axeman is an intelligent poster and a benefit to these boards, I am in no way questioning Axeman’s legitimacy.
I am under the impression that Axeman means:
Conspiracy theories regarding the Illuminati and Adam Weishaupt ALL started with Webster’s books.
If this isn't the case, then I am wrong, and I apologize.
BTW in anyone is interested you can read Webster’s book here:
ca.geocities.com...
The section relating to the Illuminati is here:
ca.geocities.com...
and in its sources we find:
1. Barruel, III. p. xi. quoting Gaultiert
And
4. Mémoires sur le Jacobinisme (edition of 1819). Vol. III. p. 9.
both volumes mentioned by Loungerist previously.
Originally posted by Loungerist
If the only place I can find a certain piece of information is a group of circuitously referenceing conspiracy sites, red flags go up. I was simply demonstrating that I had indeed searched for it.
Do your red flags also go up when you can only find liquid nails at Home Depot and not at the 7-11?
Context is the missing ingredient here.
Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Oh, I'm sorry!
You wanted a response?
Let's see, you'd have me believe your authors who have a bit of an agenda, and your thread put together for an agenda, over the likes of Antony Sutton, Chris Millegan, Steve Sewall and Carl Oglesby, not to mention Robert W. Lee?
I seriously think not, sir.
Ok, I have given a response. May I be excused now? I see no need in sitting in a class given by a teacher who knows less than I do. I had to do that in college in the general classes and vowed I'd not do that again.
Originally posted by The Axeman
Heheh. Context. Funny you should mention that when your whole argument is based on you taking my statements out of context, and quoting little snips of my posts to make it sound like I'm saying what you want me to say, so you can prove me wrong. You still have yet to get the point and show that what I have actually concluded is incorrect.
originally quoted by Axeman
Regarding the "Illuminati runs the world and is working toward establishing a New World Order" conspiracy:
It looks as though it all started with a certain Nesta H. Webster.
originally quoted by Axeman
*citing the Webster article* There you have it: the beginnings of the “Illuminati conspiracy,”
originally quoted by Axeman
I'm talking about the whole business of the Illuminati, and the fact that the whole idea started with this one woman
originally quoted by Axeman
The point is, that according to the research I've done, the Illuminati conspiracy theory started with Nesta Webster's book.
originally quoted by Axeman
Yeah, it would be... if that's what I had said. The seeds of the conspiracy theory revolving around The Illuminati were sown by Webster and Pope-Hennesy in the early 1900's;
originally quoted by Axeman
...the Illuminati conspiracy theory started with Webster, it is a conclusion based on documented fact.
originally quoted by Axeman
You post like you think I'm some kind of idiot. I may have fallen off the turnip truck, but it damn sure wasn't yesterday.
Originally posted by Loungerist
I feel there's only one way these numerous statements can be properly interpretted with English.
Originally posted by Loungerist
...I feel there's only one way these numerous statements can be properly interpretted with English.
originally quoted by Axeman
Regarding the "Illuminati runs the world and is working toward establishing a New World Order" conspiracy:
It looks as though it all started with a certain Nesta H. Webster.
originally quoted by Axeman
*citing the Webster article* There you have it: the beginnings of the “Illuminati conspiracy,”
originally quoted by Axeman
I'm talking about the whole business of the Illuminati, and the fact that the whole idea started with this one woman...
originally quoted by Axeman
The point is, that according to the research I've done, the Illuminati conspiracy theory started with Nesta Webster's book.
originally quoted by Axeman
Yeah, it would be... if that's what I had said. The seeds of the conspiracy theory revolving around The Illuminati were sown by Webster and Pope-Hennesy in the early 1900's;
originally quoted by Axeman
...the Illuminati conspiracy theory started with Webster, it is a conclusion based on documented fact.
You know what's going on in your head more than anyone else so if you say you didn't actually mean what you said numerous times repeatedly then we'll go with that. But I find it difficult to believe. And even though this is probably my last post in this thread I still like to know why you asked for this:
"So tell me; how is this improbable, much less impossible? Show me some literature, website, cite a book, quote a politician (that is not an ambiguous assertion) before 1921 who makes mention of Adam Weishaupt in a conspiratorial sense..."
...if you did not believe the Weishaupt conspiracy theory started with Webster as you said. Because I can't imagine why you would ask for this if not for a belief that you thought it started in the 1900s at the time.
And as I've stated before,even with the modifiers of "contemporary" or "modern" your claim that it started with Webster is still incorrect as Webster herself was aided by other people's work before her and built upon by people after her. So any way you slice it she is not who started it in any form. Contemporary,antiquated,or otherwise. Webster is just one name who helped contribute. As I,others in the thread,and the very article you used have said.
According to Mrs. Webster, one man started it all: Adam Weishaupt, a renegade Jesuit priest and professor of canon law who founded the Order of illuminati of Bavaria on May 1, 1776. By this account, Weishaupt was the principal architect of internationalism as it became manifest in the 20th century. World Revolution terms him the mastermind of the "terrible and formidable sect" that launched "the gigantic plan of World Revolution" and so earned him a place on the dark side of history as "the profoundest conspirator that has ever existed." At least some mention of Adam Weishaupt or the Illuminati is found in virtually all contemporary conspiracy literature.
originally quoted by Axeman
You post like you think I'm some kind of idiot. I may have fallen off the turnip truck, but it damn sure wasn't yesterday.
Not at all. I get the impression that you think other people are more dim-witted and less competent than they really are,but I certainly don't think you yourself are an idiot. In fact I think you're smarter than the average bear. I think you let your personal interests in issues heavily skew your reasoning,but I believe you're otherwise very intelligent. And despite DF's implication to the contrary,even though I think you're mistaken in this thread I'm well aware of your participation on the boards and in my opinion you're one of the sharper members around.
You have voted Loungerist for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.
Originally posted by df1
Originally posted by Loungerist
I feel there's only one way these numerous statements can be properly interpretted with English.
You distort what Axeman is saying by treating what he says as a serious of independent statements removed from the context in which they were used then applying your own narrative to arrive at the meaning you desire.
Originally posted by Loungerist
So before I respond,let me now make sure we're all in understanding with absolute clarity. Emphasis on points you say were misinterpretted. Your stance Axeman is that:
The theory that the Bavarian Illuminati/Weishaupt sought world dominance was started with Nesta Webster?
Originally posted by df1
I'd suggest that you reread what has been previously written in context rather than trying to restate 3 pages of thread in a single short sentence.
Without a good, clear thesis that presents an intriguing arguable point, a paper is doomed to seem unfocussed, weak, and not worth the reader's time.
Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
I doubt very much that a central thesis can be taken out of context.
Originally posted by Loungerist
So before I respond,let me now make sure we're all in understanding with absolute clarity. Emphasis on points you say were misinterpretted. Your stance Axeman is that:
The theory that the Bavarian Illuminati/Weishaupt sought world dominance was started with Nesta Webster?
Originally posted by Axeman
My argument is that contemporary conspiracy theory (i.e. www.forbiddenknowledge.com; www.illuminatiarchive.com; www.threeworldwars.com; and several others -- this post was originally written as an investigation into the "3WW" Albert Pike hoax) can be directly or indirectly traced back to Nesta Webster.
AN ASSOCIATION HAS BEEN FORMED for the express purpose of ROOTING OUT ALL THE RELIGIOUS ESTABLISHMENTS, AND OVERTURNING ALL THE EXISTING GOVERNMENTS OF EUROPE.
Originally posted by Loungerist
So before I respond,let me now make sure we're all in understanding with absolute clarity. Emphasis on points you say were misinterpretted. Your stance Axeman is that:
The theory that the Bavarian Illuminati/Weishaupt sought world dominance was started with Nesta Webster?
Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
Does Axeman mean: ALL contemporary conspiracy theory Or contemporary conspiracy theory has depicted in www.forbiddenknowledge.com; www.illuminatiarchive.com; www.threeworldwars.com; and several others sites?
so:
Axeman central argument is:
1. ,My argument is that contemporary conspiracy theory can be directly or indirectly traced back to Nesta Webster.
or
2. My argument is that contemporary conspiracy theory as depicted in www.forbiddenknowledge.com; www.illuminatiarchive.com; www.threeworldwars.com; and several others can be directly or indirectly traced back to Nesta Webster.
Sorry, is I'm being picky but there is a huge diffeerence between the two statements.
Originally posted by The Axeman
My argument is that contemporary conspiracy theory (i.e. www.forbiddenknowledge.com; www.illuminatiarchive.com; www.threeworldwars.com; and several others -- this post was originally written as an investigation into the "3WW" Albert Pike hoax) can be directly or indirectly traced back to Nesta Webster.
Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
Actually, what Lougerist is asking for is confirmation of Axeman’s central thesis before proceeding (since there has been a misunderstanding regarding this for the past 3 pages, this isn't so strange.)
Originally posted by The Axeman
My conclusion is this:
If you look at most (key word; the vast majority, even) contemporary conspiracy theory that concludes that the Illuminati (let me point out here that most of the literature I've seen holds that the Bavarian Illuminati, upon disbandment, went underground and has been manipulating world policies and leaders covertly ever since, which accounts for the seperation of "The Illuminati" of contemporary conspiracy theory and "The Bavarian Illuminati") being responsible and indeed in control of world events, and ushering in a New World Order, can be traced back to Nesta Webster; either directly, or by citing someone who used her work as a springboard for their own.
Axeman
Now, I just used these sites as examples in an attempt to allow you to grasp the meat of what I am saying. If you look at conspiracy theorists today, if they are talking about the Illuminati, either in books, websites, pamphlets, flyers, whatever, then most of the time (there are sure to be some original ideas out there, though I have yet to see any ) you can trace the source of the information back to Webster; either by citing her directly, using her ideas with no credit given, sometimes taking her ideas as a base and expounding on them with their own (which wouldn't be possible without the precedent set by Webster)...
Good grief, I feel like a broken record... a broken record... a broken record... a broken record... a broken record...
Originally posted by Axeman
My argument is that contemporary conspiracy theory... can be directly or indirectly traced back to Nesta Webster.
Originally posted by Loungerist
Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
Actually, what Lougerist is asking for is confirmation of Axeman’s central thesis before proceeding (since there has been a misunderstanding regarding this for the past 3 pages, this isn't so strange.)
Exactly. This would go without need for explantion to most people. But as DF always appears to try to avoid the actual topic itself I can see how it threw him.
Well as I said earlier Webster's work has had an impact so if that is your thesis no one has argued against it. How much impact one thinks she's had likely depends on where they've personally looked.
But when dealing with referrence literature having someone cited as a source is standard procedure. It doesn't mean everything is based on that source or that it makes all the same errors of that source if some exist.
Research methods and information improve and old sources can be used in cooberation with new for greater accuracy. And as Webster's work is said to be almost mirrored by earlier writers of the same period I'd quibble with saying it goes specifically to her.
Though Weishaupt ushering in a new world order was something Robison spoke about as well. Robison said Weishaupt's ultimate goal was world domination and single world government through means of orchestrated crises. If he happened to speak just of the French revolution it was only because that's all that had happened by that time. A later writer would have more to link Weishaupt's machinations to but it's the same premise.
As I'm sure later writer's who've cited Webster have expanded with things that occurred beyond her time as she has with writers she cited before her. And so on.
That's so broad and wide that I wouldn't try to disprove it as it cannont be proven to begin with. It relies on the assumption that the ideas are automatically Webster's whether she's cited as a source or not. The conspiracy theory of the Bavarian Illuminati is the result of research and investigation and not a tale pulled from the ether even if some of it may be speculative.
So different people can arrive at the same belief if that's where the trail of study leads. It's not something that necessarily changes with each teller as history it's based on doesn't change. Because someone reaches a similiar conclusion doesn't automatically mean they got it from someone else. Robison and Barruel for example reached similiar conclusions independently. That's just where their research led.
from: freemasonry.bcy.ca...
The Edicts [on June 22, 1784, for its suppression] of the Elector of Bavaria [Duke Karl Theodor] were repeated in March and August, 1785 and the Order began to decline, so that by the end of the eighteenth century it had ceased to exist.... it exercised while in prosperity no favorable influence on the masonic institution, nor any unfavorable effect on it by its dissolution."9
In 1785 Weishaupt was deprived of his chair and banished with pension from the country. He refused the pension and moved to Regenburg, subsequently finding asylum with the Count of Saxe-Gotha, Ernst. Weishaupt was later appointed a professor at the University of Gottingen, remaining there until his death in 1830
I can feel your pain since from my end it read like different records being played instead of a broken one. Made it impossible to dance to.
AN ASSOCIATION HAS BEEN FORMED for the express purpose of ROOTING OUT ALL THE RELIGIOUS ESTABLISHMENTS, AND OVERTURNING ALL THE EXISTING GOVERNMENTS OF EUROPE.
Leaders of this Association disbelieved every word that they uttered, and every doctrine that they taught; and that their real intention was to abolish all religion, overturn every government, and make the world a general plunder and a wreck.
And when we see that the methods which were practised by this Association for the express purpose of breaking all the bands of society, were employed solely in order that the leaders might rule the world with uncontrollable power, while all the rest, even of the associated, will be degraded in their own estimation, corrupted in their principles, and employed as mere tools of the ambition of their unknown superiors;
And, lastly, I have seen that this Association still exists, still works in secret, and that not only several appearances among ourselves show that its emissaries are endeavoring to propagate their detestable doctrines among us, but that the Association has Lodges in Britain corresponding with the mother Lodge at Munich ever since 1784.
The Association of which I have been speaking, is the Order of ILLUMINATI, founded in 1775, by Dr. Adam Weishaupt, professor of Canon law in the university of Ingolstadt, and abolished in 1786 by the Elector of Bavaria, but revived immediately after, under another name, and in a different form, all over Germany.
Originally posted by The Axeman
Have you read the book? If such is the case I'd be appreciative if you would cite a source and/or give a quote or an excerpt where he states this. If you'll notice I most generally give sources for what I say, I would appreciate it if, for the sake of scholarly research and debate, you would do the same. That doesn't mean you have to post a bunch of links, as that's "annoying" ( ), but some kind of source to back up what you say would be nice, not only for my benefit, but for the benefit of all those who might be reading this thread. Hi guys!
originally posted by Loungerist
Though Weishaupt ushering in a new world order was something Robison spoke about as well. Robison said Weishaupt's ultimate goal was world domination and single world government through means of orchestrated crises. If he happened to speak just of the French revolution it was only because that's all that had happened by that time. A later writer would have more to link Weishaupt's machinations to but it's the same premise. As I'm sure later writer's who've cited Webster have expanded with things that occurred beyond her time as she has with writers she cited before her. And so on.
Yes but the thing is, what connects those occurances to Weishaupt and the Illuminati is Webster's assertion that the Illuminati is bent on World Revolution and that Weishaupt was "the profoundest conspirator of all time."