Intellegent Design without Christianity?, page 1


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reply posted on 23-8-2005 @ 08:27 AM by Quest
You asked for it....

www.venganza.org...

The Flying Spagetti Monster actually has the EXACT same chance of being the designer as God does.

Stop worring about creationist. Right or wrong, the evolutionist will keep making medicine and running society and keeping them all alive and evolving.



reply posted on 23-8-2005 @ 12:01 PM by Rren
Uncle Joe
Intellegent Design without Christianity?....

...I was just wondering if anyone who didnt beleive in God beleives that we were designed intellegently, or if this idiocy is a natural product of too much religion and too little education.


Michael Behe is one of the more prominent advocates of Intelligent Design Theory, he holds a PhD. in Biochemistry from the University of Pennsylvania. Here's a quote from him: "The theory of intelligent design is not a religiously based idea, even though devout people opposed to the teaching of evolution cite it in their arguments…" (See "Design for Living," New York Times, February 7, 2005.).

Most opponents of the theory would argue it's stealth Creationism and it certainly can be, but it makes no predictions or assumptions as to whom the designer is ... supernatural or otherwise. I as a christian can as easily "plug-in" GOD, as a non-believer could "plug-in" aliens(or whatever). There are even some Christians and Muslims(perhaps others as well) who argue IDT is sacreligous in that it goes out of the way to make no mention of GOD/Allah, opting instead for the generic "intelligent designer" in hopes of maintaining some credibility in the scientific community. Although some Muslims and Christians have found a common ground in Intelligent Design Theory.
Interestingly, Said Nursi, in the 1950s, foresaw an alliance between Islam and Christianity against materialism. He prophetically wrote, “A tyrannical current born of naturalist and materialist philosophy will gradually gain strength and spread at the end of time, reaching such a degree that it denies God. ... Although defeated before the atheistic current while separate, Christianity and Islam will have the capability to defeat and rout it as a result of their alliance” (Nursi, Letters, s. 77-78). Half a century after Nursi, the stage for that alliance is set.



Here is a good paper on Intelligent Design by William Dembski: www.designinference.com...
As a theory of biological origins and development, intelligent design’s central claim is that only intelligent causes adequately explain the complex, information-rich structures of biology and that these causes are empirically detectable. To say intelligent causes are empirically detectable is to say there exist well-defined methods that, based on observable features of the world, can reliably distinguish intelligent causes from undirected natural causes. Many special sciences have already developed such methods for drawing this distinction—notably forensic science, cryptography, archeology, and the search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI). Essential to all these methods is the ability to eliminate chance and necessity.

Definately a good read if your interested in IDT and its proponents, and the above paper makes no religous statement...take that as you will. Another good paper on this by Dembski, much longer though. www.designinference.com...
Dawkins may be right that design is absent from the universe. But design theorists insist that science address not only the evidence that reveals the universe to be without design but also the evidence that reveals the universe to be with design. Evidence is a two-edged sword: Claims capable of being refuted by evidence are also capable of being supported by evidence. Even if design ends up being rejected as an unfruitful explanation in science, such a negative outcome for design needs to result from the evidence for and against design being fairly considered. On the other hand, the rejection of design must not result from imposing regulative principles like methodological naturalism that rule out design prior to any consideration of evidence. Whether design is ultimately rejected or accepted must be the conclusion of a scientific argument, not a deduction from an arbitrary regulative principle.


Here's a link to Dr. Dembski's bio: www.discovery.org...
A graduate of the University of Illinois at Chicago where he earned a B.A. in psychology, an M.S. in statistics, and a Ph.D. in philosophy, he also received a doctorate in mathematics from the University of Chicago in 1988 and a master of divinity degree from Princeton Theological Seminary in 1996. He has held National Science Foundation graduate and postdoctoral fellowships. Dr. Dembski has published articles in mathematics, philosophy, and theology journals and is the author/editor of seven books.


IOW Intelligent Design Theory is NOT creationism biblical or otherwise...although any debate your every likely to have around here on IDT will most likely be with a (Christian) creationist. isn't it ironic?

BTW i am a Christian (old-Earth)Creationist and i can't help but see GOD's design all around me and honestly don't know why some do not. To each his own i guess, if you like your trillion to one long-shots every step of the way...so be it, if you willing to accept that nothing i could say will change your mind...i'm not entirely convinced either IDT or Creationism are truely scientific(testable or falsifiable) but that does NOT make it irrational or untrue, no?



reply posted on 24-8-2005 @ 02:23 PM by Nygdan
Originally posted by suzy ryan
One part is essays by those who believed first and the other part by those who came to believe BECAUSE OF THEIR WORK IN SCIENCE.

There is no evidence for the creation of the world in six days. These people are beleivers, who have faith in a their religion, they have not 'arrived' at this conclusion based upon a consideration of the evidence.
Argue with the scientists in the books not me. As to not being credible, well their employers seem to think they're credible

Forget about 'credible' or 'incredible' or 'scientist-nonscientist', what is the evidence that they present? If they have no scientific evidence then they can't consider their personal beleifs to be scientific or rational. They are choosing to beleive in YECism. This book seems to try to make the claim that there is evidence, and this this 'second portion' is made up of scientists who came to creationism by studying science, and without the influence of the bible. No bible, no YECism.

Michael Behe is one of the more prominent advocates of Intelligent Design Theory,

He's also a christian, and his ideas are an extension of christian natural theology, there is no evidence for intelligent design in nature, and behe has never been able to scientifically demonstrate that there is. Also, notably, Behe accepts that not only does evolution occur, but that man evolved from apes. Or perhaps its dembski, I often confuse the two to tell the truth.
the above paper makes no religous statement

It also does not demonstrate that intelligent design can be detected.

UJncle Joe
But are those people Christians?

There are, supposedly, jewish creationists who take something like a 6 day aproach, and there are lots of muslim creationists who take a literal, adam and eve, approach. As far as Intelligent Design, there are lots of people that 'promote' it, but I can't think of any non-christians at the moment, tho I seriously doubt that there aren't any. What would be difficult to find is an atheistic advocate of intelligent design. Thats because the intelligent agent in intelligent design is deity. Aliens from another dimension could've made man, but eventually you get to the first living intelligent beings, and they'd have to have arisen by the actions of a supernatural creator-god in intelligent design.
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