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Albert Pike - Did he author the 3 Great Wars?

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posted on Aug, 22 2005 @ 08:49 PM
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Greetings,

My first post and a question regarding the fellow Albert Pike.

It is my understanding from reading "Morals and Dogma" that Mr. Pike may be subject to much misunderstanding. However, I have noticed that the negatives attributed to his person's character and/or actions, are based more upon the letters he wrote and other writings than what is just written in "Morals and Dogma".

No doubt, this presents itself as an important question and we must search for the truth. The answer to him writing this letter can only be "YES", "NO" or perhaps "partially so". Although it can be said that Mr. Pike does not speak for all Masons, it likewise cannot be ignored as something of irrelevence that he may have had input into some great truths.

My questions to all of you are simple, yet the answer may be difficult to come to know for certain.

1) Did Albert Pike actually write (as seen in his vision or otherwise) about the three great world wars?

2) Was the language in this letter (as we read it today) correct or were their alterations made to either present it as grammatically correct, or to attack Mr. Pike's person? (Ex. illuminati, Nazism etc.)

3) If Albert Pike was not the author, than who or what could have had this notion of truth during an early time and then also have put it into writing?

4) If it was not Mr. Pike then what kind of imposter could do as much, yet rest this upon the hands of another innocent person, be it a Mason or otherwise?

Let us discuss our ideas, research and opinions on this matter.




posted on Aug, 22 2005 @ 09:25 PM
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Originally posted by knight_star_gazer
Greetings,

My first post and a question regarding the fellow Albert Pike.

It is my understanding from reading "Morals and Dogma" that Mr. Pike may be subject to much misunderstanding.


Welcome to ATS!

Have you read Morals and Dogma in its entirety?


1) Did Albert Pike actually write (as seen in his vision or otherwise) about the three great world wars?


Simply, no.


2) Was the language in this letter (as we read it today) correct or were their alterations made to either present it as grammatically correct, or to attack Mr. Pike's person? (Ex. illuminati, Nazism etc.)


It is a hoax. More in a moment on this.


3) If Albert Pike was not the author, than who or what could have had this notion of truth during an early time and then also have put it into writing?


His name was Leo Taxil.


4) If it was not Mr. Pike then what kind of imposter could do as much, yet rest this upon the hands of another innocent person, be it a Mason or otherwise?


See #3.


Let us discuss our ideas, research and opinions on this matter.


This has been discussed many times here, but I'll go ahead and answer it again.
You can probably find plenty by just doing an ATS search or googling "Leo Taxil" or "Taxil hoax."


from: www.masonicinfo.com...

It was a practical joke which has gone on to have a 'life of its own': Gabriel Jogand-Pagès, better known as Léo Taxil, was born in France in 1854 and educated by the Jesuits who caused him to be embittered toward religion. Taxil became a 'free-thinker' and actually joined Masonry but was expelled as a result of wrong-doing. Further angered, he chose revenge in a literary manner and decided - perhaps in an effort to redeem himself with Masonry by making the Roman Catholic Church look foolish - to ridicule their credulity about Freemasonry by creating an elaborate story in which the leader of the Southern U.S. Scottish Rite, Albert Pike, was the brunt of the fabrication.


Some further information:

freemasonry.bcy.ca...

en.wikipedia.org...

www.brainyencyclopedia.com...

www.casebook.org...

altreligion.about.com...

www.phoenixmasonry.org...

That should about do it.

Here's one more very long narrative about the whole Taxil affair, from when he was expelled from the lodge up until he came out with the confession that it was all a hoax. Happy reading!

www.mit.edu...

Welcome, again, and I hope ATS treats you well.


[edit on 8/22/05 by The Axeman]



posted on Aug, 22 2005 @ 10:31 PM
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Hi Axeman and thx for the welcome.

I read through the links with interest. It appears that this Mr. Taxil was a real character and was proven to libel, and bearing false witness. Moreover, the fact that he was able to stir up so much controversy, lasting up until this very day. Although, I have not read anywhere Mr. Taxil confessed to writing this particular letter (from Pike to Mazzini), I understand how someone else could write it to frame Mr. Pike. Certainly I dare not imply that Mr. Pike wrote the letter but I am saying that I am also not so sure that we can accuse Mr. Taxil of crimes which he may be not guilty of committing. If Mr. Taxil is not guilty and someone else wrote this prediction of things to come, then the spotlight should be planted upon that fellow also, see?

I also find it troublesome to accept that this man perhaps not working alone but in league with Jesuits, could write such a frightening letter containing terminology such as illuminati, Nazism, the state of Israel etc.

Were these words actually known to the people in that time to incite such fear and strife? Would Taxil or perhaps even Jesuits, care to mention a Muslim World War against the Jewish state of Israel? IMO, it’s seemingly irrelevant and hardly foreseen and as per the intent that Taxil may had wished to insult Christians and Freemasons. Early Thomas Jefferson’s take on Adam Weishaupt being a harmless aristocrat, we are told that the Illuminati disbanded and were not even a threat worth mentioning, yet we are believe this sad little man’s tales had to include so much extra information?

What about if I put it in this fashion? Whether a fake or not, how many of these predictions how come to pass and why was it not stopped before we spilt upon the earth, so much innocent blood?



posted on Aug, 22 2005 @ 10:49 PM
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Originally posted by knight_star_gazer
It appears that this Mr. Taxil was a real character and was proven to libel, and bearing false witness. Moreover, the fact that he was able to stir up so much controversy, lasting up until this very day.


He was able to stir up so much controversy because back then, just like conspiracy theorists do today, Taxil preyed on people's emotions and fears and told them what they wanted to hear. People were wary of Freemasonry, and Taxil's "confessions" only helped to perpetuate the heresay of the day.



Whether a fake or not, how many of these predictions how come to pass and why was it not stopped before we spilt upon the earth, so much innocent blood?


WHO would you expect to have done WHAT? Do you think that if someone wrote things like that today, that action would be taken? Does anyone really take predictions of the future seriously enough to take action?



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 08:05 AM
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Originally posted by knight_star_gazer
Certainly I dare not imply that Mr. Pike wrote the letter but I am saying that I am also not so sure that we can accuse Mr. Taxil of crimes which he may be not guilty of committing. If Mr. Taxil is not guilty and someone else wrote this prediction of things to come, then the spotlight should be planted upon that fellow also, see?


Agreed. The letter was almost certainly written in the 1990's (when it first started popping up on the Internet), a century after Pike's death. Some anti-Masonic websites claim that the original letter is in the British Museum. The Museum curators say that no such letter exists. It appears to have been a recently devised hoax, not from Taxil, but from someone inspired by him.



What about if I put it in this fashion? Whether a fake or not, how many of these predictions how come to pass and why was it not stopped before we spilt upon the earth, so much innocent blood?


I would say that these "predictions" came to pass because they were written after the fact. Instead of prophecy, it's seems to be a historical review, placing the blame on a couple of guys who've been dead for a hundred years.



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 09:10 AM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light

Agreed. The letter was almost certainly written in the 1990's (when it first started popping up on the Internet), a century after Pike's death. Some anti-Masonic websites claim that the original letter is in the British Museum. The Museum curators say that no such letter exists. It appears to have been a recently devised hoax, not from Taxil, but from someone inspired by him.

...

I would say that these "predictions" came to pass because they were written after the fact. Instead of prophecy, it's seems to be a historical review, placing the blame on a couple of guys who've been dead for a hundred years.


I stand humbly corrected. It seems I had my hoaxes mixed up... My apologies, but welcome nonetheless.


Now where did I see that 3WW thing... *searches*



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 10:39 AM
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Originally posted by The Axeman
Now where did I see that 3WW thing... *searches*


You must be looking for this conspiracy "gem," a new "member" favorite icebreaker here in the Secret Societies Forum:

www.threeworldwars.com...

Miner Monkeys, not just for striking it "rich" anymore...



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 11:34 AM
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Originally posted by Mirthful Me

Originally posted by The Axeman
Now where did I see that 3WW thing... *searches*


You must be looking for this conspiracy "gem," a new "member" favorite icebreaker here in the Secret Societies Forum:

www.threeworldwars.com...

Miner Monkeys, not just for striking it "rich" anymore...


Yes, I found it already... I'm more searching for the origins and propagators of this particular hoax, as it has recently come to my attention that I was in error...

Working on it...



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 02:52 PM
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Please forgive the long quotes; I felt it was necessary to make my point.


Well, I haven’t been able to find who actually wrote the letter, but I have found some very interesting material nonetheless...

It looks as though it all started with a certain Nesta H. Webster. She wrote three books of consequence: World Revolution; The Plot against Civilisation, Secret Societies and Subversive Movements and finally The Surrender of an Empire; Plus an autobiography entitled Spacious Days.

She made many claims that, when examined, don’t hold up well to scrutiny, much like today’s conspiracy theorists (which isn’t surprising, as most conspiracy theory today was directly or indirectly influenced by her work).


from: www.cooperativeindividualism.org...

The central tenets of contemporary conspiracy theory owe much to the British author Nesta H. Webster's World Revolution; The Plot Against Civilization (1921), a book that testifies powerfully to the endemic flaws of conspiracy notions.[1] World Revolution describes minute similarities (differences receive little or no mention) found in a variety of secret societies and intellectual movements between the late 18th century and the early 20th century. These, it says, are "proof" that the source of revolutionary upheaval in the modern world "is not local but universal, it is not political but social, and its causes must be sought not in popular discontent, but in a deep-laid conspiracy" (emphasis added). Accordingly, parallels between the rituals, methods, and symbolism of various societies, and the teachings of individuals as various as Rousseau, Robespierre, Owen, Fourier, Marx, Bakunin, and Louis Blanc are interpreted as evidence of an "occult force, terrible, unchanging, relentless, and wholly destructive, which constitutes the greatest menace that has ever confronted the human race."

According to Mrs. Webster, one man started it all: Adam Weishaupt, a renegade Jesuit priest and professor of canon law who founded the Order of illuminati of Bavaria on May 1, 1776. By this account, Weishaupt was the principal architect of internationalism as it became manifest in the 20th century. World Revolution terms him the mastermind of the "terrible and formidable sect" that launched "the gigantic plan of World Revolution" and so earned him a place on the dark side of history as "the profoundest conspirator that has ever existed. " At least some mention of Adam Weishaupt or the Illuminati is found in virtually all contemporary conspiracy literature.


So here we have an author of the 1920’s, attributing the whole of the Illuminati conspiracy to one man. Weishaupt, of course; labeling him as "the profoundest conspirator that has ever existed." Coincidence? I think not... The article continues:



To attempt to refute the Webster account of global conspiracy by pointing out every historical fallacy of the work would be an enormous waste of time. It would be so not because there are no factual errors but because she does not offer support, by references to verifiable "facts," for the crucial aspect of her thesis -- that the key people involved conspired to achieve a common purpose. That critical notion is an inference she makes from the evidence presented, but it is not the only plausible inference. Indeed, other inferences seem more plausible.

Thus, to attempt to refute Mrs. Webster's conspiracy thesis and those of other conspiracy theorists -- one must contend with facts not presented more than with those offered. And to prove a negative -- that is, that there is no conspiracy -- is virtually impossible. That, however, in no way suggests Mrs. Webster's thesis is accurate. Her method is fundamentally flawed; it permits neither verification nor refutation. Consequently, "believers" can accept the conspiracy theory and "nonbelievers" can reject it.


There you have it: the beginnings of the “Illuminati conspiracy,” still shabbily researched and presented; still un-provable and speculative. Is it any wonder modern conspiracy theorists don’t have a leg to stand on?

Then we come to this book: Pawns of the Game by William Guy Carr. It appears that William Carr took the ideas of our Ms. Webster and ran with them; compounding lousy source upon lousy source, going by the already debunked Ms. Webster’s “information” as well as the Taxil Hoax... Well you can see already that his guy just reeks of credibility, right?


"But Axe, www.biblebelievers.org just loves him..."



from: freemasonry.bcy.ca...

...Carr erroneously depicts the USA seal as an insignia of the Illuminati and describes the "all spying eye" without citing any source or documentation. In a later footnote he again claims: "the Great Seal of america is actually the insignia of the illuminati." [p. 53 footnote]

"The significance of the design is as follows: the pyramid represents the conspiracy for destruction of the Catholic (Universal Christian) Church and the establishment of a "One Uorld", [sic] or UN dictatorship, the secret" of the Order; the eye radiating in all directions, is the "all-spying eye" that symbolizes the terroristic, Gestapo-like, espionage agency that Weishaupt set up under the name of "Insinuating Brethren", to guard the "secret" of the Order and to terrorize the population into acceptance of its rule." [p. xiii]

With a breathtaking lack of historical accuracy, Carr claims: "It should be noted that this insignia acquired Masonic significance only after merger of that Order with the Order of Illuminati at the Congress of Wilhelmsbad, in 1782." [p. xiii]

Jumping off from Taxil's lies, Carr continues: "...[Albert] Pike accepted the idea of a one world government and ultimately became head of the Luciferian Priesthood. Between 1859 and 1871, he worked out the details of a military blue-print, for three world wars, and three major revolutions which he considered would further the conspiracy to its final stage during the twentieth century." [p. xiv] "Pike organized the New and Reformed Palladian Rite." [p. xv]

When Carr makes the following claim, it is time to seriously question his sources: "Long before Marconi invented wireless (Radio), the scientists who were of the Illuminati had made it possible for Pike and the Heads of his councils to communicate secretly." [p. xv]

Carr purports to quote Pike's August 15, 1871 alleged correspondence in the British Museum Library but neglects to provide citation. [p. xvi] He also quotes Taxil's lie about worshipping Lucifer citing it as being in a letter sent to his Palladian councils July 14th, 1889 [p. xvi]


And people buy it hook, line, and sinker. Why? They choose to take these people’s word for it, without bothering to research the information themselves.

Then you have guys like Sonny René Stermole who compound the errors and back them up without so much as a shred of personal research... Another victim of this scam, but one who (like some people on this very board) choose to forward it along as fact with no proof.



from: www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...

What, among other things, appears so significant in the Illuminist/Masonic plan for three world wars is that the Third Planned War has been enunciated by conspirators as revolving around tensions with the Moslem "world." While the Middle-East has been specifically pointed to in the Luciferian conspiracy as providing the strategic and tactical basis for a Third World War, corollary components could be in the construction stage in other regions of the world, notably India/Pakistan/China.

A Plan for Three World Wars, you might say ? Not my idea. Not my conspiracy. Not my prediction. It is, however, a plan by persons who have much more power and influence than that expressed through the power of the pen. It does, however, substantially include persons who have the lion's share of the power of the pen, that is, the "press." Or, one might say, includes those who have the lion's share, the vulture's share, and the jackal's share. And I'm just trying to hold on to my First Amendment share. And that's a principle shared by many patriotic Americans and Christians around the world.

When was the alleged plan for three world wars penned and by whom?
It was put to writing in 1871 under the auspices of two prominent godfathers of Freemasonry, Mafia founder Giuseppe Mazzini who viewed the subversive and occult structure of Freemasonry as a profound vehicle or "lever" for world revolution, and America's Confederate General Albert Pike, co-founder of the KKK and Supreme Pontiff of Lucifer who re-wrote the degrees of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry and who instituted the diabolical Rite of the Palladium to dominate Freemasonry, with the Palladian Rite providing an intensified hands-on course in "fleshly glove" demon possession leading to walking/talking possession of human initiates by Lucifer-associated spirits, demons. The ultimate objectives of the "occult conspiracy" include the establishment of a One-World Government to exercise overt occult oligarchic ruler ship world-wide.

The "Plan" embodies the ultimate in human rights violations, and the world wars which it has spawned have been instruments to achieve even more diabolical objectives. Within the scope of what "Plan" has Freemasonry elicited oaths embracing murder, perjury, and treason ? To what extent have persons been culpable who have operating within the United States as U.S. citizens ? Enemies Within ? Including Presidents ? Beyond Bill Clinton ? Brace yourself.


So many errors, so little time...


And then there’s Myron Fagan, who appears to be, in conjunction with and indeed inspired by William Guy Carr, one of the main contributors to the Illuminati conspiracy theory:


from: www.prolognet.qc.ca...

Recently I came across a tape entitled «The History of the Illuminati» by Myron Fagan in which Mr. Fagan explains in detail what the Illuminati is, how it started, and their conspiracy to form a one world government by the end of the 20th Century. Following are excerpts taken from this tape, based on William Guy Carr's book, "Pawns in the Game".

- Melvin Sickler


So while the crux of the matter, that is, who wrote the “letter to Mazzini” and when, still remains unanswered (we may never know – all that can be said with certainty is that it did NOT come from the hand of one Albert Pike), we can plainly see that the origins of the conspiracy theory surrounding it are dubious at best. When you consider the fact that most if not all of the modern conspiracy sites are repeating this same stuff and using it for a base of their own theories and speculations, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that most of it holds no water. Are there people that are up to no good in the world? Surely. Are there people about that don’t have all our best interests in mind? Certainly. But, when you ask if those people are tied in to a worldwide conspiracy being carried out by Weishaupt’s Illuminati a la Freemasonry, the answer must be a resounding NO.

Case closed.

-Axe out.


Nearly every misconception I've heard of on this subject... all in one place! Goody!
:bnghd:

[edit on 8/23/05 by The Axeman]



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 06:11 PM
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My, you have been busy. A very interesting post, but far too much debunking for some on this site.

Your just a big ol' spoilsport ain'tcha



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 11:08 PM
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Originally posted by The Axeman
Well, I haven’t been able to find who actually wrote the letter, but I have found some very interesting material nonetheless...


A GREAT job, Axeman! You definitely have my vote for Way Above


Man, if Adam Weishaupt only knew how glorified, agrandized and mythologized his pathetic, powerless, pointless and not-so-secret society has become by conspiracy theorists... well, I'm sure he'd be pleased.



posted on Aug, 24 2005 @ 02:53 AM
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You have kindly taken the time to answer me and I shall put forth an old idea:

Sometimes, a question is asked yet we ignore some facts and choose to replace others with still another falsehood.

You cannot defend the idea of a man’s personality, nor place him upon the pedestal, or that of the depths of hell; shall we call this an Albert Pike or a Leo Taxil and at the same time, denounce one while placing the other higher when it serves us and only to remove it again, when it does not. Do we not see some others laugh at the weak display by the corrupt and petty Mullah Clergy, as they energize their angry emotional-thought forms toward Salman Rushdie for writing his biased and grade school level “The Satanic Verses”? So why conjure up a defense for this personality Mr. Pike or anyone else and does this in any way work for or against Masonry? Are these the tenants of true Masonry? This should be an answer the Mason must also seek, see?

Mr. Pike, such a positive influence. Yet, should we be able to pounce upon him and denounce his credentials in some way; now what bearing is this upon Masonry? Do certain people praise Mr. Pike and still not blame him for any KKK affiliation? Do all the lies about Masons lie on Taxil and not on any other, including the Masons themselves? If Masonry stands true, timeless and sprang forth from that universal truth which is inherent into which we are Oneness, then why the fascination over either man, and why defend one so selfishly, yet hate the other?

Are not both Mr. Taxil and Mr. Pike our brethren? Should we be speaking harshly or play up the favoritisms in their name? Do we choose to attribute wrongdoings or great deeds onto a system of truth, or a creed of a lodge? Or do we place blame upon the personality we call Mr. Taxil and while at the same time, turn our heads to Mr. Pike’s own fallacies? Both entities were as men but BE as souls; each is beloved by the Father, yet each surrounding themselves within an illusion they call their own little “personality”.

How many already know of Mr. Pike’s other works and have read them? How many already know of his escaping to hide from prosecution? Would a man so placed upon a pedestal, rest his faith in fear of losing his very material being? Would a man so capable of impressing upon the esoteric understandings live in opposition to his own teachings? Now who can say these things for sure? I will not judge this man Pike, nor will I judge another like Taxil! Now just as some of us do not yet know who wrote the 3 War letters without more evidence, it does not grant us the right to spit upon the personality of one, having him upon many Mason websites, so utterly despised. There is no excuse for why this is so, other than a display of weakness by behaving ‘slightly’ reactionary.



[edit on 24-8-2005 by knight_star_gazer]



posted on Aug, 24 2005 @ 07:36 AM
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Knight, I think the difference here is that Pike didn't go on record slandering innocent people, while Taxil did. And even though this happened over a century ago, we Masons still feel the repercussions of it today through the conspiracy theorists, who believe the Taxil hoax to be true.

Now, I don't "hate" Taxil. He's long dead, for one thing. For another, when he started all this stuff, he probably did not expect to be taken very seriously, anyway. His writings about the "Palladian Rite" mention certain things such as Lucifer whisking Pike to the planet Venus every Friday to have tea together. The fact that this stuff was, and is, taken seriously by many anti-Masons is much more a testament to their own gullibility than to Taxil's deception.



posted on Aug, 24 2005 @ 01:07 PM
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Originally posted by knight_star_gazer
You have kindly taken the time to answer me and I shall put forth an old idea:

Sometimes, a question is asked yet we ignore some facts and choose to replace others with still another falsehood.


Have I done this? Please show me where if so; as you can see from my posts above, I don't like it when I am in error, and if I am, please correct me.


You cannot defend the idea of a man’s personality, nor place him upon the pedestal, or that of the depths of hell; shall we call this an Albert Pike or a Leo Taxil and at the same time, denounce one while placing the other higher when it serves us and only to remove it again, when it does not.


Uhhhh... OK? I'm not quite sure I understand what you are getting at. Yes, I respect Pike, but I fail to see where I have put him on any kind of pedestal in my posts on this thread.


Do we not see some others laugh at the weak display by the corrupt and petty Mullah Clergy, as they energize their angry emotional-thought forms toward Salman Rushdie for writing his biased and grade school level “The Satanic Verses”?


I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with what you are talking about.


So why conjure up a defense for this personality Mr. Pike or anyone else and does this in any way work for or against Masonry? Are these the tenants of true Masonry? This should be an answer the Mason must also seek, see?


Why? I can only speak for myself, but from the research I have done, and what I know of Pike's life and work, he is a man worthy of honor and respect. That is why I choose to defend his work and his ideas. I make no claim to the type of man he was, or the soul he had. We can not judge any other man in that fashion. To paraphrase the man himself: How are we to know that a man who, in the eyes of the people, is a good man, wouldn't be worse than the lowliest, basest criminal, given the same circumstances and temptations? Perhaps the good man wasn't tempted so, and by virtue of that fact alone, is considered to be a good man? Perhaps he would be worse than the criminal, given the same temptations? God and God alone can judge men's souls. I go by words and deeds, therefore I can not judge the man, I can merely either respect or abhor what he has said or done in his lifetime.


Mr. Pike, such a positive influence. Yet, should we be able to pounce upon him and denounce his credentials in some way; now what bearing is this upon Masonry? Do certain people praise Mr. Pike and still not blame him for any KKK affiliation?


It should be mentioned that no proof exists to link Albert Pike with the KKK.


Do all the lies about Masons lie on Taxil and not on any other, including the Masons themselves? If Masonry stands true, timeless and sprang forth from that universal truth which is inherent into which we are Oneness, then why the fascination over either man, and why defend one so selfishly, yet hate the other?


I don't hate anyone, first of all. Taxil himself I could care less about. He's gone. He made his peace with God, or he didn't. At least (as was the plan all along) he confessed that what he wrote was a hoax; however what I do have a problem with is that now people read his admitted lies, and take it as fact, and what's worse, repeat it all over the internet as fact! All the while neglecting, of course, to mention that it was an admitted hoax. Is Taxil the only one who ever lied about Masonry? Certainly not. There are many who have lied, or in some cases, propogated misconceptions as truth, having been duped into believing what they were saying was true. Are the Masons themselves to blame? Partly yes, mostly no. They have a shroud of mystery about them; for years they kept a low profile, and did not answer the cries of the anti-Masons (A suggestion which is often made to Masons here, by anti-Masons, of course.), which in turn, caused some of the lies to be taken as true, when nothing was heard from Masons to the contrary. Now they fight an uphill battle, because we all know that a lie left uncontested for long enough becomes truth to many.


Are not both Mr. Taxil and Mr. Pike our brethren? Should we be speaking harshly or play up the favoritisms in their name? Do we choose to attribute wrongdoings or great deeds onto a system of truth, or a creed of a lodge? Or do we place blame upon the personality we call Mr. Taxil and while at the same time, turn our heads to Mr. Pike’s own fallacies? Both entities were as men but BE as souls; each is beloved by the Father, yet each surrounding themselves within an illusion they call their own little “personality”.


Indeed they are, and as I said above, peace be upon them both. God has judged them, and that is the end of it. Their legacies, embodied in their writings and deeds, however, are still ours to come to our own conclusions about. Was Pike perfect? No. He was a man. Did he do and say great things? Yes he did. Can the same be said for Taxil?


How many already know of Mr. Pike’s other works and have read them? How many already know of his escaping to hide from prosecution? Would a man so placed upon a pedestal, rest his faith in fear of losing his very material being? Would a man so capable of impressing upon the esoteric understandings live in opposition to his own teachings? Now who can say these things for sure?


Please explain. I have not read Pike's other work yet, but I intend to. I am not aware of the instances you reference; perhaps you can provide some facts about these incidents you refer to? As far as I am aware, Pike did live by his principles, though I am willing to hear you out if you have evidence to the contrary.


I will not judge this man Pike, nor will I judge another like Taxil! Now just as some of us do not yet know who wrote the 3 War letters without more evidence, it does not grant us the right to spit upon the personality of one, having him upon many Mason websites, so utterly despised. There is no excuse for why this is so, other than a display of weakness by behaving ‘slightly’ reactionary.


As I said before, I think the reaction is more to the impact his work had on Masonry as a whole, rather than to the man himself. Every man is different. Some will harbor ill feelings toward Taxil becuause of what he did, some will simply show the error in his work and call it a day. In this country, everyone has a right to their opinion, and a right to voice it.

This is a refreshing change, thank you. I look forward to your response.


[edit on 8/24/05 by The Axeman]



posted on Aug, 24 2005 @ 03:16 PM
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I found the incident you were commenting on about Pike escaping arrest, and I have also discovered that accounts of it vary, sometimes greatly, in the details. Some things are fairly certain; he did escape arrest after somewhat of a scandal, and hid in Arkansas for a time, sending a resignation to the Confederate army from there. He was later arrested, and was briefly detained (for a little over a week) in Warren, Texas. His resignation accepted, he moved back to Arkansas. As a result of the goings on at Pea Ridge, was treated with suspicion, apparently from both sides. He moved to New York, then to Canada for a time, having been excluded from the pardons given by President Lincoln to Confederate officers. He was later granted a pardon by President Andrew Johnson, at which time he moved back to the States and resumed his law practice, and also began his serious work with and for the Scottish Rite, Southern Jurisdiction, ultimately becoming Sovereign Grand Commander of the Supreme Council, 33°.

I found this very interesting on a personal level, not only as someone who respects Pike's work and is interested in History, but also the Pea Ridge battlefield is mere miles (about 10) from where I grew up; I remember taking field trips there when I was in elementary school. I used to drive by it all the time. Very cool.


Some of the more detailed sources I found:


from: en.wikipedia.org...

After Pea Ridge, Pike was faced with charges that his troops had scalped soldiers in the field. Maj. Gen. Thomas C. Hindman also charged Pike with mishandling of money and materiel, ordering his arrest. Both these charges were later found to be considerably lacking in evidence; nevertheless Pike, facing arrest, escaped into the hills of Arkansas, sending his resignation from the Confederate Army on July 12. He was at length arrested on November 3 under charges of insubordination and treason, and held briefly in Warren, Texas, but his resignation was accepted on November 11 and he was allowed to return to Arkansas.



from: www.civilwarhome.com...

The Confederate Indians of Colonel Stand Watie's regiment, and those of Colonel Drew's regiment, who had returned to the Confederate service under Pike and Cooper, also participated in the battle of Pea Ridge in March, 1862, where they were charged with scalping and mutilating the Federal dead on the field. General Pike, hearing of the scalping, called up the surgeon and assistant-surgeon of his field-hospital for reports, and in their reports they stated that they found one of the Federal dead who had been scalped. General Pike then issued an order, denouncing the outrage in the strongest language, and sent a copy of the order to General Curtis. General Pike claimed that part of the Indians were in McCulloch's corps in the first day's battle; and that the scalping was done at night in a quarter of the field not occupied by the Indian troops under his immediate command.



freepages.military.rootsweb.com...

On August 15, 1861, he was commissioned Brigadier General in the army of the Confederate States, and at the battle of Pea Ridge he commanded a brigade of Indians. Pike's Civil War career was unfortunate, to say the least, and ultimately resulted in his arrest by General Hindman and the remark by General Douglas Cooper that he was "either insane or untrue to the South."

With the Indian troops Pike fought at Elkhorn Tavern [Pea Ridge], and their dubious conduct reflected, perhaps unjustly, on Pike. He later alleged they had been recruited only for service in defense of their own territory. In his defense, it must also be noted that Pike had little opportunity to work with or drill his Indian troops. When the deaths of Generals McCulloch and McIntosh left him as the senior surviving Confederate officer at Leetown, Pike was ineffective in rallying or reorganizing his troops. After much acrimony Pike resigned his Confederate commission on July 12, 1862; and his resignation was accepted on November 5, 1862.

[brackets mine]

So there seems to be more or less of an agreement between all the sources I found, though some were less detailed. I tried to find non-Masonic sources, a) to avoid the appearance of biased information, and b) because most Masonic sites deal only in Pike’s work within Masonry.

I still stand by what I said regarding Pike’s work and ideas. From what my research shows, his legal troubles were more a result of circumstance than personal actions; however, as I said previously, I invite you to provide evidence to the contrary.

[edit on 8/24/05 by The Axeman]



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 05:02 PM
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Just wondering if knight_star_gazer is still around...

I was rather looking forward to this discussion...



posted on Sep, 23 2005 @ 01:53 PM
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I was googling around and came across this... priceless...

Henry Makow, meet Masonic Light:

www.rense.com...




posted on Sep, 26 2005 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by The Axeman


I was googling around and came across this... priceless...

Henry Makow, meet Masonic Light:

www.rense.com...



Hahahaha, that was pretty good.



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