education and the media ..future con jobs

I read in a news article on yahoo this evening concerning the three states out west..California, Oregon, and Washington State adopting the same "high standards" for automobile emissions. Other states on the eastern seaboard are considering adopting similar standards.

I have been musing on this topic for some four weeks now with incredulity at the trends in what I consider to be ignorance on the part of politicians and leaders... ie..."experts"
I am very curious to see how and what is going to happen in these three states when gasoline goes to $3.50 or higher ..say .$5.00 per gallon.
My point is that at those prices.,.and it is already happening on a smaller scale nation wide,..people will sharply curtail thier driving and purchasing habits. What are the "Experts and media pimps" going to blame pollution on ..what new causes. ??
Simple logic and reason tells you that the very price mechanisms involved are going to reduce the driving habits of Americans drastically. We have a whole sector of the economy dedicated to keeping Americans on this fear of pollution treadmill. These people including "higher education" are going to find themselves out of a job or a job tactic ...if people start driving less. What excuses or pretexts will they use to keep themselves employed??? Including the media who also use this line of fear to get credibility with the public?? Try to imagine them picking on motorcycles and mopeds as the next job opportunity to stay employed???!!! Wow..talk about hard up!!
Keep a eye on this one closely in the future as gasoline and diesel prices go through the roof.

One more thing for you folks to consider.and it is not being spoken about on the media or by politicians of which I know ..
If gasoline and diesel go to $3.50 or $5.00 per gallon many farmers will find themselves unable to plant. This means shortages of every foodstuff in the grocery shelves. It also means the inability of this country to export food to much of the world. It means starvation for much of this world at least for about 25% or more of the world population. Especially in Asia and Africa. Think about that ..starving people tend to go to war for food and sustinance.
Find a expert or a politician willing to teach you or inform you along this line of thought. How about a media shill??? Think about it??
Pollution concerns pale next to this line of thought ...wake up people!!!

Thanks,
Orangetom

These "new high standards" on emissions will push used cars off the road, since most older cars can not meet high emission standards. That will leave a whole section of poor out of a car, since the newer used cars are expensive themselves. You think car manufactuers are pushing for this with their money?

Higher gas prices means less mobility for Americans. I wonder if this is more of a plan to keep us immobilized instead of reducing emmissions.

If diesel goes up too high, the trucks will stop running, and the country will become immobilized, since no products will be shipped anywhere from groceries to office supplies. Right now what is happening is that the companies who reimburse their drivers for fuel are transfering some of their costs over to their customers, who in turn transfer the cost to the consumers. That is one reason why prices have risen so much since the gas climb started.

It can get to the point where the company can can not absorbe any more fuel costs, and their customers will refuse to take on any more costs because the consumers are not buying the item at such a high price. The company can try to pass on the fuel costs to the drivers, but many of them will quit driving instead. They have a dangerous job, are pushed to the limits and beyond by their companies, are forced to deal with bad HOS (hours of service) rules, and in many cases receive low pay for what they are doing. Either having to accept lower pay, or having to pay even a part of the fuel costs may be the last straw that breaks their backs so to speak.

Then you get to the lease drivers and owner operators who have to pay for thier fuel costs. Very high deisel costs will shut them down, because it will get to the point where it will not be worth it for them to keep driving.

I wouldn't be suprised to see regular gas prices climb higher than diesel. Of course regluar gas prices going too high could shut down the economy as well. It could get to the point where people will not be able to afford to go to work, and public transportation where it is available would raise their prices so much, that it would be expensive for people to buy their passes. Only a very few could walk or ride a bike to work.

As for starvation, you can look for more and more people in our country who can not buy enough to eat, and yet our grocery stores shelves are packed to the brim.

I would be very hard pressed to debate your points from the opposite position.

A further note to your points. Here where I live on the east coast gasoline is less expensive than diesel at present but this could fluctuate back and forth with market trends.

Yes I am aware that conditions and pressures on drivers both private and company are very hard in attempts to meet schedules. Also that it is a dangerous occupation. Most of America has no idea how much of what they consume is shipped across this nation begining in the hours when most are asleep. Nor are most Americans aware of the dangerous cargos some of them transport and must have specific qualifications/training to do so. Most Americans are asleep at the wheel on this one.

Thanks,
Orangetom

I don't think that the pollution concerns are trivial, Tom. And I don't think you've factored in things like fuel additives. Alcohol ("gasahol") was popular the last time fuel got very high, but it faded when gas got cheap again.

While I agree with Mystery Lady's wonderful analysis (you got my last WATS vote, ML!) I also think that we'll see a move toward the cars that get the highest gas mileage -- the hybrids -- and we'll see fuel cell cars starting to become available.

We're also seeing resistance to nuclear power drop. If there are more nuclear power plants, this frees up other resources to be turned into fuel.

Finally, there's also a move toward various types of biodiesels.

So I think we'll see a move toward alternative fuels over the next 10 years. People aren't going to pay these high prices (although it's not as high as in Europe) and we'll see more moving toward public transportation and alternative fuels in the future.

Im not sure you get the point . Costs alone are going to curb much of driving meaning they cannot blame pollution on the sources specified today. This represents a huge shift in job opportunitys for some. They will not be allowed to produce but so much bio fuels..this will not happen when you can by government policy enforce a captive market. Monopsonist..control of the supply and demand.
I believe we will see a shift to two wheeled transport as us done in much of Europe. People with any sense will be husbanding their fuel much more carefully. You already see this happenng.
Nuclear power....I am a nuclear fueler ..in a shipyard on the east coast...do you have any idea how much uranium fuel is left in the world..you might want to look this one up some time.

Our plans for the mid east are to gain access to all of the oil. All of it. We are not there to gain access to this oil for American consumption. This is obvious at the pump. The oil simply is not coming to America. We are in the mid east to cut off competitors who had for a brief time found a way around the oil embargo. Germany and France. We are in the mid east to insure that the oil goes to Asia to feed the industrys created by massive loans and technology transfers from the west. Asia now has oil prioritys by way of the banks, insurance companys insuring the loans, and manufacturers who insured the technology transfers to a location with much cheaper labor.
IF we wanted that oil for American consumption the price at the pump would be going down ..not up..this requires no rocket material between the ears. Nothing would stop us. The fact that this is not happening means the oil is going somewhere else...but not to America.
All those technologies you speak of will not satisfy the demand for energy in America.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Well, I am split on this whole topic. Like Mystery Lady, I think that the new demands for lower emissions, it is going to force people to have a hard time just meeting the demands for life. However, I would like to point out the fact that most american automakers haven't fully caught up to the low emission vehicle production. So, in essence, aren't we mostly supporting the foreign automakers? Plus, the American low emission vehicles are still rather expensive. However, Honda, Toyota, Hyndai have all been making inexpensive autos with low emissions since the early-ninties. I have a 93 honda civic. It falls in the low emissions standards and the value for it is rather low. Granted, I don't know the exact cost (it was a wedding gift from the in-laws).

I do feel however, that if the government is going to force emission standards on the population, then they need to work on the public transport system. Would it really be so bad if less people had cars IF the public transport system wasn't such a mess? In most cities people don't want to be at a bus stop or subway stop after dark. It is way too dangerous. Overall, daytime hours are better, in certain areas, but still have high crime rates.

Additionally, while the biggest impact on the new standards is going to be on those households that are supporting old vehicles, it is very frustrating at times to see the number of households that get new vehicles every other year. How many have 2 or more brand new vehicles, for a 2 driver household? Cars/Trucks should be more of a luxury than they are. However our society has made it such that it is required that we have a vehicle per driver plus one for travel, because from experiance, no one wants to travel in a tiny car.

At $3.50 to $5.00 per gallon pollution will quickly become a non factor with the number of people who will be giving up thier cars merely because of being priced out of the market. Those who will even be able to afford a car will be using them very sparingly. Got the point yet or are you people still stuck back in the 1980s. In a time warp. Look foreward not backwards. IF gasoline goes even higher, and it may well do so, and more people are forced by pricing mechanisms to give up their cars or curtail much more of thier driving...whom will they blame pollution on.
Let me see if I have this straight ..what some of you are saying. Public transportation is in a bad state in many citys and dangerous too. Yet the intelligent, educated sophisticated mind of our leaders says..increase pollution controls on automobiles and use government to force more of this but do nothing about the quality of public transportation or public safety. Is that about the summation of the nations prioritys??? Who is stuck in a time warp here??? Think it through. Some people are just educated enough to use last years thinking and then boast of this greatness in the news media.

What does a 40% drop in people driving their cars do to the pollution factor nationwide because they must husband the gasoline or diesel. If it goes higher how about a 60% drop. Ok lets do it on a low side ..how about 30% drop??? This is happening already. People are not planning long vacations in thier cars they cant afford the gas.

Thanks,
Orangetom

I don't think you quite get it. Ok, just let's say for argument’s sake that gas prices climb so high, that it forces a 50% reduction of cars and trucks on the road. First of all, I don't think the environmentalists will stop until the last car is off the road. Who will they blame for pollution next? Hmmmmm, they never ran out of sources in the past blaming every thing from aerosol sprays to air conditioners. Not ot mention bubble wrap. When I was in elementary school, I actually had a tree hugger of a teacher expounded on the dangers of bubble wrap especially when the bubbles get popped.

More than likely they will attack the next biggest polluter, which may be what is left of our industries. So many of them have packed up and left to other countries that they may not really have much to attack there. Hmmmm, I wonder if they will attack utility companies. I'm sure they could find "something" against them.

The ramifications go way beyond not being able to plan for a long vacation. What do you think it will do for those who can’t even afford to take one vacation in their lifetime? They can’t take their vacation money to put gas in their cars. It could very well come to the point where they will not be able to afford the gas to get to work. Carpooling can only go so far. Many places do not have any public transportation systems especially the suburbs and rural areas. We still have to pay for the public transportation through taxes. Amway, which the government is trying to save, is giving us quite a tax beating right now. If the government decides to try to expand the public transportation system, our taxes will go up taking even more bill and food money out of our pocket. Too many of us live too far away to be able to bike or walk to work even if we were all fit and in top shape. In the US many of our highways have restrictions on bikes, because it is too dangerous for bikes.

What do you think will happen to the prices in the stores when the trucking companies keep raising their prices to deliver the products you use on an every day basis? The price of the product will keep increasing, since there will not be as much product moved. How would you take to buying milk over $5.00 a gallon, or a cheap loaf of bread that costs $3.00 or more. Not to mention people will have a much harder time paying rent or their mortgage. Many are a pay check away from the bankruptcy or the streets. If the prices get so bad, the trucks may stop which would truly immobilize the country and create a crisis.


[edit on 30-8-2005 by Mystery_Lady]

Originally posted by Indellkoffer
While I agree with Mystery Lady's wonderful analysis (you got my last WATS vote, ML!) I also think that we'll see a move toward the cars that get the highest gas mileage -- the hybrids -- and we'll see fuel cell cars starting to become available.

Thanks for the vote, wow I actually got a vote . I would like to see a true alternative. Hybrids still depend on gas and oil. I would like to see more work in solar power.

www.msnbc.msn.com...
Jump start for solar? Car race shows potential
Tapping the sun, students drove 2,500 miles from Texas to Canada

These college kids have already traveled at highway speeds over a very long distance. I honestly believe that solar power for cars, if it has not already been created and hidden by the governments, can be developed for cars. For those who think it can't be done, look back to when the first hand cranked car was invented. I'm sure many people couidn't have imagined traveling at an average of 55 or 65 miles per hour let alone above 100 mph. I'm sure they wouldn't have evisioned NASCAR. Yet that is all possible today. It is time for cars to take the next step towards their evolution.

Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
How would you take to buying milk over $5.00 a gallon, or a cheap loaf of bread that costs $3.00 or more. [edit on 30-8-2005 by Mystery_Lady]

Wow. That sounds like Norway! Haha, everything is expensive over there!

Anyways...Orangetom, what your asking is 'when the gas prices go too high, no one will drive. If no one drives, who will the (tree huggers) blame for pollution. I think Mystery Lady had it nailed. They will blame the next highest pollutant on the scale, and they will continue to do that until we're back in the Iron Age.

Although I agree that pollution tshould be kept to a minimum, instead of whining about emissions, why not do something about it. Invent a perpetual engine or find an abundant/cheap/clean fuel source. Then, go to the Senate and LOBBY your arse off!

I doubt you'll be able to get the car companies to make the switch though, since the big oil industry can looby with millions if not billions. It also seems to be their plan (among others) to rid the US of a middle class. In which case, rasing gas prices (as well as never rasing minimum wage) is an excellent way to do that. I remember 10 years ago, gas was about $1.00-$1.10 a gallon, and minimum wage was around $4 something. Now, gas is almost $3.00 a gallon, and minimum is $5.15 (in Florida). Do the math, the poor and middle class drop off the end of the scale.

I'm not really sure why this is happening, but you can be sure the people who lobby for emissions aren't doing the right job. They need to lobby for different propulsion systems, not gas/oil burning cleanliness.

[edit on 30/8/2005 by FallenOne]

There is alot of speculation in certain arenas as to why and what would happen if prices for commoditys took off as posted in your senerios.
With no middle class you have only the slobs and royalty. This is feudalism no matter what name/spin "intelligentsia " tries to put on it.
Speculation for years in some arenas is that someone wants to return this world back to the feudal systems of yesteryear. Rulers and rulees. Pricing mechanisms are one way of doing this.

As to electric cars..I can tell you that motor technology has taken off ..big time in the last 7 years. New milestones have been broken in the area of bearing technology and motor effeciency. This means more likelyhood of effecient motors to work off of solar power. A effecient storage device would be needed too..one which would be able to keep the automobile working in the dark while running and also charging up the storage device in the daytime sufficent to run all or most of the night.
All of this of sufficient weight and functionality to work in a automobile priced correctly and functioning on todays roads.
I do know that superconducter technology is being studied by the US Navy to replace many of the electric motors that they currently have in inventory. A good percentage of the motors can be replaced by one size fits all to where the warehousing can be tremendously simplified. Today the Navy has a huge storage problem keeping track of the many types of electric motors they need. Simplifying this by deleting just 30% of thier motors means huge warehousing savings. These new motors will put out the same amount of work at a much smaller size.
So what will they do in a electric automobile.???
As to batterys or a storage device. I have often wondered and speculated...what kind of battery works on a spacecraft going out into deep space for ten years or so and is capable of surviving temperatures from the minus ..like well below zero..to the temperatures over 212 farenheit. It must be some kind of battery. Wow!! For that is what one has to have to survive deep space. Someone has designed and invented it no doubt.
A more effecient type of solar cell would also help alot.

Just speculation on my part..some of you may know more than me in these arenas.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by orangetom1999
As to electric cars..I can tell you that motor technology has taken off ..big time in the last 7 years. New milestones have been broken in the area of bearing technology and motor effeciency. This means more likelyhood of effecient motors to work off of solar power. A effecient storage device would be needed too..one which would be able to keep the automobile working in the dark while running and also charging up the storage device in the daytime sufficent to run all or most of the night.
All of this of sufficient weight and functionality to work in a automobile priced correctly and functioning on todays roads.
I do know that superconducter technology is being studied by the US Navy to replace many of the electric motors that they currently have in inventory. A good percentage of the motors can be replaced by one size fits all to where the warehousing can be tremendously simplified. Today the Navy has a huge storage problem keeping track of the many types of electric motors they need. Simplifying this by deleting just 30% of thier motors means huge warehousing savings. These new motors will put out the same amount of work at a much smaller size.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Man, I hope it gets shared. Like I said before it needs to be lobbied hard. Just because it exists doesn't mean anyone can build/mass produce it. If the army holds the patent, chances are e won't see it for a long time...but I may be wrong. I 'm jus a pessimist.

I am somewhat of a pessimest too. I am sure that more effecient batteries are in existance but I am also sure they dont want them on the market. To do so would collapse many current industries dependent on keeping the public on the battery buying treadmill. Just like with light bulbs.

I know the motors are becoming rapidly more effecient and smaller. The very motors used in your Sony Walkman are a prime example. The early models used four AA type batterys. The newer ones use two AA type batterys and do a better job. That is a 50% increase in effeciency. Nothing at which to turn ones nose up.

I often wonder and speculate about inventions which might have made our lives better and more effecient but would destroy existing industrys so they are bought up or government is used to keep them off the market. The Fish Cauberator seems to be just such a invention.

Thanks,
Orangetom

americains...*shakes head in sypathy*

iam afraid that you have blinkers on when looking at this subject. amercia is not the only country in the world

peak oil is gonna happen. people are gonna run out.

the oil companies in america are feeding the amercain people bullsh*t to keep them from knowing the truth-they cause 40% of the worlds emisons.

you run massive cars, you WASTE so much! this is not meant as a personal attack, just america as a whole.

what about the rest of the world? Mystery_Lady said about food shortages. this is only gonna happen in 1st world countries, such as america, europe, japan. why? because in 3rd world countries, they have 'evoled' to deal with this. starvation is part of daily life. and, they acually grow there own food in farms. what these people need is education. [but thats a different subject.]

america is a very rich country-in fact it is the only remaining economic super power; but when peak oil happens, you are gonna crash, because compared to the rest of the world you DRINK energy.

and this is not just gonna happen to oil. gas is gonna peak in 100 years or so, and coal in 250 years. think of all the power stations that are gonna be without fuel... all the homes without heating... and winter closing in...

doesnt bear thinking about.

and here, in britain, our goberment is actually decommisioning nuclear power... huh?

when i look at this problem, the only way i can see foward is when amercian TAKES AN ACTIVE PART in decressing their emmsions and cutting there oil consuption.

amercians could install a council system like we have over here, that is a recyling system. one sorts ones rubbish, and one puts it out, and one gets free bags to put rubbish in.

this would sovle anthor problem: landfill.

and just as a passing coment, i dont like the way you sneer at envirmentlists. these people are trying to conserve the world for you and your children. its not about them attacking you too cause trouble.
also, if it takes the americans raised taxes to DO SOMETHING then so be it.
you dont acually suffer that bad taxes compared to us.


none of this was meant to offend anyone

Your government is decommissioning nuclear power because they dont exactly have huge areas to deposit the waste byproducts which nuclear power produces. My guess is that when they get done nuclear submarines are all that will use nuclear fuel sources.
Also if history/memory serves me isnt England and another country heavily invested in the North Sea oil production areas. I am not sure how long the projections are on this source of energy.
Here in America there is plenty of energy up in Alaska. As a matter of fact oil and natural gas have been discovered from Alaska to the eastern seaboard ..along the northern slopes of Canada.
Alaskan oil has never been allowed to come to American but goes overseas to Japan and China so as to not depress prices below the offical autorized price levels. Translation of this is keep prices up by controlling the market just like diamonds. Keep competitors out.
Oil and natural gas is in abundance through out Central America down to Venezula. Same thing in Vietnam. Speculation has oil off the coast of China in territorys under dispute in age olde disagreements between nations there. Translation ..look for future conflicts here.
Recycling is fine...it is not life per se. Enviornmentalism is often used to prevent certain industrys from coming to fruitition ..translation ..it is often a political tool to keep certain industrys entrenched at the expence of the competition.
One thing I know Blue Sky 9...this is America. Most Americans are very dumb about the way most of the people in the rest of of the world live. Ive been to England. RAF Mildnhall. I was not impressed with how the English live. We are Americans ..not Englishmen or any other ..not Europeans.
It is very easy for alot of Europeans, Brits and Australians to make Americans feel guilty about our standard of living. We are a very dumb bunch of people we Americans.
You see Blue Sky 9...most of the world can never come to our standard of living..even England....we can however be made to come to the standard of living of the rest of the world. Very easily...most Americans are dumb on this accout too. They watch way to much television and let the tele do thier thinking for them. A dumb easily lead bunch of people we Americans. Especially after 50 years of continued progressive education..and John Deweys successors.

by the way Blue Sky 9..I am in the nuclear industry buisness...they dont speak of it much but find out how much nuclear fuel or raw uranium is left in the world..this will also give you a clue to why England is getting out of the nuclear buisness. You might be surprised here.

Thanks,
Orangetom

orangetom1999, you again are saying about fossil fuels, how much there is suchlike. this subject is sometimes confused with climate change, and now iam gonna bring it in. not only is oil gonna run out, the more we (the 'english' as well) use, the more the ice caps are gonna melt, and the more water is gonna be added to the sea. the more water there is, the higher the sea levels, which means that low lying areas, such as parts of the british east coast, are gonna be flooded.

it also means that sea currents will change, like the gulf stream, which comes from florida, takes warm water to northern scotland/ southern iceland, will not happen becaus the salt density in the water will not be high enough. so, britain will be plunged into the next man-made ice age; places like southern france will turn to desert.



you are correct on the oil being found, there is also better techonogy that is making more oil come out of existing resivors.

and there is 10 000 years worth of urainum left. enough for the human race to destroy itself.

it is often a political tool to keep certain industrys entrenched at the expence of the competition.

this is right. it is used by goverments to make money. this is wrong. it is like using peoples goodwill donating money to charities to buy weapons. (which happens)

i think that the 'oil age' is not gonna end because of lack of oil; just like the stone age never ended because of lack of stones, it will end because humans will either have to do away with oil, (climate change) or because we find something better.

I have not heard that figure of 10,000 years of uranium left in the world. The figures Ive heard are about 125 years left for nuclear power plants. Uranium for bombs we already have enough ..especially when coupled with dial a yeild devices built in them so bang is not a problem.
Most of the public has no idea how much and rapidly nuclear power plants use up fuel. Especially here stateside where we like our airconditioned houses. Plants run close to 100% capacity ..especially when the heat index climbs. Fuel cells are regularly changed in commercial power plants. They have a robot like arm that can pull them out and insert new ones in the pile.
No doubt fossil fuels will peak..I just dont believe that the peak is here yet. What peaks we have are politics. The politics of scarcity raises prices. Man made. Oil like diamonds is a controlled market. Scarcity breeds higher prices. This has been going on since the first world war.

Thanks,
Orangetom

i cant give you a source; sorry! i just read it somewhere.

thats intresting about the robotic arm. logicalcaly the uranium is still radioactive, so how does the arm not get affected by that?

You posted:

"i cant give you a source; sorry! i just read it somewhere.

thats intresting about the robotic arm. logicalcaly the uranium is still radioactive, so how does the arm not get affected by that? "

Shielding in critical areas of importance to the functioning of the robotic arm.
Mechanics is not affected in the same manner and for the same reasons as is human flesh.
It is intresting that under operation reactors often have a lead lined/impregnated viewing window to see critical gauges and instrumentation. These viewing glasses have a yellow tint to them. They often have a static charge on them like a television when under operation.
A robotic arm like that when removed or replaced is contained in a wrap or enclosure and moved to a work area to remove the contamination which may be on it before being repaired. Strict proceedures are used in this operation. It is similar to what one sees in the X-files format when working on potent biological substances. Drapes or what is called Glove bags in specially ventelated and secured rooms.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by blue_sky_9

and just as a passing coment, i dont like the way you sneer at envirmentlists. these people are trying to conserve the world for you and your children. its not about them attacking you too cause trouble.
also, if it takes the americans raised taxes to DO SOMETHING then so be it.
you dont acually suffer that bad taxes compared to us.


none of this was meant to offend anyone

You are right I don’t like them. I’m not talking about the normal, rational people concerned about the environment and do the best they can to protect it. These people who recycle, watch what they use, and are concerned about pollutants. If an industry was polluting, they let the proper authorities be known, voice their opinion, start a boycott, or go the normal routes to combat those pollutants. They do not really consider themselves environmentalists.

The ones who usually call themselves environmentalists are irrational people who value the life of an insect and plant life over a human life. They like to destroy businesses, and their two most frequent methods are standards that are way too strict, and finding or planting an endangered species in the area of the business. Some of them will go to the extremes from doing something illegal to setting up a major falsely staged media event. They will lie to get their way. They do their best to stop any type of building on new land as much as possible. They would love to see a building destroyed, and let nature take back over the area where the building use to stand. That is why these people got the nickname of “environmental wacos”.

You are right I really don't understand how the rest of the world lives, and neither do our children eventhough our schools push multiculturalism. Much good that agenda does. I know third world countries have a heavy plight, I have given to relief efforts to help them when I can. I can only do so much. It really gulls me that those making billions upon billions of dollars hardly do anything for others. They may make a tiny drop in the bucket to charity only if it helps them out with some type of tax break or some type of PR. Hear those coins clanging in the bottom of that bucket? I'd better stop here before I really start ranting about how our government pays farmers not to farm, when they could be paying the farmers to farm and send that food where it is needed. Or how our great nation can't even seem to lift their pinky finger to help the homeless when there is food rotting on the grocery store shelves.