Romans 6:23....

They had eternal life before, but after they ate the fruit they will die, eventually, from old age. It doesn't neccessarily mean a spiritual seperation from god.

Bingo!

As for the meaning, the intended meaning, is likely that. Given that the Bible is compiled from various sources and myths, and from various authors, it is simply another example of the myriad of inconsistencies that abound throughout the entire book....

Valhall:
We have:

2 Thessalonians 1:5
5. All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.
6. God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7. and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
8. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
10. on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Jude 1:6
6. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
7. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

I would like to make the following points:
1. From Revelation 20:10-15, there is an indication that at least Satan and his angels will receive an extended period of punishment.
2. From Luke 16:19-31, there is an indication that there is some existence in which the unrepentant sinner is aware of their state. There is at least a state of consciousness of some form. This state must be entered sometime soon after death. We see that the rich man is aware of his condition. Now if this terminates in the lake of fire, then the rich man gets to suffer 2000 years more than those die unrepentant today.
3. Then there is some evidence that there is a form of eternal condemnation.
4. As for me, I DO NOT WANT to find out what it is. I much rather go with the Lord Jesus Christ. His plan sounds much better to me.
5. It always strikes me as somewhat strange why people worry so much about what Hell is like. My question to these people would be, "Why are you so concerned about Hell, are you planning to go there?" All you need to do is have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior, then you don't need to worry about what Hell is like.

My view:
It is more important to be concerned with hell then how to get your next wild orgy.

Wow, tell that you have to believe in Jesus Christ to Hindus, Buddhas, and Muslims.

[Edited on 1-9-2003 by TheManWithThePlan]

As one might expect from its position in this chapter of the Epistle: it�s a forceful, rhetorical summation (there�s no verb �to be� in the text: �wages� (It�s plural in the Greek �opsonia�):death/ gift life. (the strong antithesis is conveyed in the Greek by a word �de� and wages and gift �charisma� are as much contrasted and opposed as �death� and �eternal life�.

I think the great interest here is of course the relevance of this famous verse to the idea of salvation by grace: it seems to be saying that all that any of us is entitled to by virtue of what we�ve done �and only by virtue of that �is our �wages� i.e. death: eternal life is a gift and depends not upon what we have or haven�t done, but on the grace of God.

**Estragon**

AMEN! Bingo and spot-on.

man w/plan...you hit on 2 things:

1. yeah, it should be more important to consider the eternal state of your soul than to spend the equivalent time planning your next big orgy.

2. There are ample threads on this board that address the exclusionary nature of the christian faith, the jewish faith, Islam and other beliefs, but for the matter of this discussion one must set aside any irreconcilable issues between faiths as being extraneous to the topic. In other words, this thread is discussing a christian scripture. It is given, at least by me, that if you reject the christian faith, the scripture in question becomes irrelevant.

**JAG**

Originally posted by jagdflieger

2 Thessalonians 1:5
5. All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.
6. God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7. and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
8. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
10. on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

I take this passage to support my stance. "eternal destruction"...not "eternal agony", etc.

Jude 1:6
6. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
7. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Interesting, and admittedly problematic scripture from my point. BUT, let's look at the greek word being translated as "punishment" in your quotation:

dike - right (as self-evident), i.e. justice (the principle, a decision, or its execution) - has been translated as judgment, punishment, vengeance.

So if we were to to look at this with this meaning in mind it would become...look at what happened to the populace of Sodom and Gomorrah (i.e. the manifestation being they DIED by fire and brimstone) and you will have the example of rightful (or just) judgment/punishment/vengeance of like sinners. The eternal nature of the fire does not necessarily apply to the death, but that the fire is always there, always ready.

But also, let's make sure we view this particular scripture in context or we could get ourselves into a sticky wicket. ALL of Jude and any warnings of punishment that are spoke of are directed not to all sinners, but to a particular group of sinners - those dedicated to not only rejecting Christ and the christian faith, but actively proselytizing AGAINST the faith. Also, repeated allusions to some type of lasciviousness these characters are bringing INTO a situation that sounds to me like they are calling themselves christians, incorporating perverting acts into their rituals, and then denying the Christ. I personally have no problem believing that there is some type of big slap going to take place for people who intentionally lead others AWAY from Christ.

I would like to make the following points:
1. From Revelation 20:10-15, there is an indication that at least Satan and his angels will receive an extended period of punishment.

Yes, different issue.

2. From Luke 16:19-31, there is an indication that there is some existence in which the unrepentant sinner is aware of their state. There is at least a state of consciousness of some form. This state must be entered sometime soon after death. We see that the rich man is aware of his condition. Now if this terminates in the lake of fire, then the rich man gets to suffer 2000 years more than those die unrepentant today.

Yes, I believe there is some state that both believers and nonbelievers enter into immediately after death, but this is not the eternal state. The eternal state (or termination) takes place in the 20th Chapter of Revelation. You either suffer the 2nd death (termination for eternity) or you don't.

Concerning the fact that the nonbeliever immediately after Christ has suffered 2000 years in some form of not-a-happy-place state, while the nonbeliever who dies immediately before Christ's return suffers a couple of seconds. Please refer to the parable Christ used to point out that (great segue back to the language of the original quoted Roman scripture) the "wages" we earn are meted out not FAIRLY, but JUSTLY.

"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. After agreeing with the laborers for the usual daily wage, he sent them into his vineyard. When he went out about nine o'clock, he saw others standing idle in the marketplace; and he said to them 'You also go into the vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' So they went. When he went out again about noon and about three o'clock, he did the same. And about five o'clock he went out and found others standing around...He said to them, 'You also go into the vineyard.' When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his manager, 'Call the laborers and give them their pay, beginning with the last and then going to the first.' When those hired about five o'clock came, each of them received the usual daily wage. Now when the first came, they thought they would receive more; but each of them also received the usual daily wage. And when they received it, they grumbled against the landowner, saying, 'These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.' But he replied to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for the usual daily wage? Take what belongs to you and go, I choose to give to this last the same as I give to you. Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me?..."

Matthew 20:1-16

3. Then there is some evidence that there is a form of eternal condemnation.
4. As for me, I DO NOT WANT to find out what it is. I much rather go with the Lord Jesus Christ. His plan sounds much better to me.
5. It always strikes me as somewhat strange why people worry so much about what Hell is like. My question to these people would be, "Why are you so concerned about Hell, are you planning to go there?" All you need to do is have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior, then you don't need to worry about what Hell is like.

We are in agreement in that I do not want to know what the nature of the second death is. To me, no matter the state, if it includes separation from God's presence and spirit, it definitely would be hell for me and I intend to stay too far away to see what's happening.

I do believe there is merit in discussing how this "eternal burning" depiction of hell may be a bit flawed. This depiction is problematic when talking to nonbelievers about God. A God that would set up an eternal misery factory is extremely hard to explain...so why did this concept get introduced? Did some minister decide that Dante's depiction was scarier and more effective than trying to explain a condition of total separation from God to a person that may not have ever realized they were/are connected to God in the first place? I kind of suspicion that may have been what happened.

I think there needs to be an emphasis made on the difference between spiritual death and physical death.

Physically, man is mortal. When he left the Garden of Eden a cherubim with a flaming sword was placed at the Tree of Life so man could not become immortal.


Spiritually, man was made in God's image though. Could this mean he is eternal in soul no matter what? A form of life that cannot be extinguished but may take on different shapes and forms?


Spiritually, does death have the same meaning as it does physically? We understand it to be an end - a finality. But if man has left his mortal life behind would death necessarily mean an end or finality even if he has sinned?
Logically not as there was no end in mortal death. The spirit continued. Maybe spiritual death leads onto another plane of existence.

Maybe spiritual death and a subsequent eternity in hell isn't a form of non-existence. Maybe spiritual death is a darkness and silence where the soul is still aware and living alone.

Originally posted by Leveller

Maybe spiritual death and a subsequent eternity in hell isn't a form of non-existence. Maybe spiritual death is a darkness and silence where the soul is still aware and living alone.

Exactly. This is my image of hell. The spirit lives on to realize for eternity it has been banished from the presence of God, that it now lingers in a place where there is no goodness. This would be the ultimate hell in my mind. It does not require any physical torture be added to it. It's already as bad as it can get.

P.S. Leveller, it is nice to see you! I have missed your input.

[Edited on 1-9-2003 by Valhall]

How was man spiritually created in gods image? Do we have infinite power? No. Man is not like god in the sense of his power. So, it must be easier to destroy us. If he can make us, he can destroy us too.

To everyone, I must apologize for my inactiveness on this subject. I have been terribly busy with my current college coarse loads and with my current side activities/part-time government job....forgive me.

Valhall,
You asked how this 'doctrine' came about and I think one can find a number of sources to answer this but I found one that is quite informative and scholarly done. There is another good source and that is by the Nun Karen Armstrong who wrote the books: "Battle for God" and the "History of God."
"The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment" by Thomas B. Thayer
hellbusters.8m.com...

"The Bible Hell" by J.W. Hanson
hellbusters.8m.com...

I know that we all believe and interpret differently. I respect that though I may question it as others would question my beliefs and interpretations. This is something that we naturally do....to question.
One of the reason's I started this was to show that we all percieve things differently. We all interpret differently. We all reach our own conclusions based on these interpretations and also based on what we have been taught by others, etc.
This topic combined many topics and thoughts. Mainly, it raised the issue of 'hell' and 'eternal punishment.' This is a doctrine that is held by almost every Christian denomination. Millions, if not billions, believe in a literal 'hell'..... a place of eternal punishment, created by a wrathful and condemning God. Many claim and say that this doctrine was taught by Jesus. Personally, I don't see it that way nor see Jesus teaching it that way.
Here are some reasons I reject eternal punishment.

1) It teaches that the 'lost' will live forever, which is contrary to Scripture's plainest statements.
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20
"He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:12
"The wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23

2) It robs us of a God of love and substitutes a being whose wrath is never appeased.
"Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God" Ezekiel 18:23
"The Lord is .... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

3) It cannot be reconciled with the picture the Bible gives of Jesus Christ. Will the same Jesus who reassured the woman caught in adultery, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." (John 8:11); who took the children in His lap; who wept over Jerusalem and prayed for the forgiveness of those who crucified Him --- will this same Jesus consign sinners to burn forever in the fires of Hell?

4) It makes the redeemed, who will have a part in the final judging of the lost, condemn their fellow creatures to an eternally burning hell.
"Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?" 1 Corinthians 6:2
Humanity's sense of justice could never allow it to have a part in sentencing husbands, wives, children, parents, friends to an unending eternal torment.

5) It imposes a punishment all out of proportion to the crimes committed.
"We are sure that the judgement of God is according to truth against them which commit such things." Romans 2:2
"Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Genesis 18:25
Even a human judge would never impose such a sentence on the most depraved offender.

6) It would forever cast a shadow over the peace and happiness of the redeemed. Could God or Jesus ever "wipe away all tears from their eyes" (Rev. 7:17) if they knew that somewhere in the universe a loved one was suffering in undying fires and eternal punishment?

7) It demands that the plague of sin continue to taint God's universe forever. God will make a complete end of sin and sinners. See Malachi 4:3; Hebrews 2:14; 2 Thessalonians 2:8; 2 Peter 3:13.
"And there shall be no more curse." Rev. 22:3

8) It perpetuates and immortalizes sin, suffering, and death.
"There shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Rev. 21:4

9) It vilifies God's character and makes Him into a monstrous agent of Satan. To keep sinners burning throughout eternity, God would have to become a miracle-worker, using His supernatural powers to sustain their lives in a fire that burns but cannot consume. He would become worse that Satan himself. Instead, "good and upright is the Lord." Psalm 25:8

10) It brings forth evil fruit here on earth. Hundreds of thousands, if not more, have rejected a cruel God who would inflict such punishment on sinners and have become bitter opponents of Christianity. It has caused others, in the name of God, to carry out unspeakable persecutions against their fellow humans in order to save their souls from eternal damnation in the eternal flames of hell.....eternal punishment.

I believe there is a "Hell," but it is not what we think it is and what we are "supposed" to experience is different from what we are being told and taught and have come to believe.
I find that the 'doctrine' of "Hell" and endless punishment is a mockery to and of God and to the teachings of Jesus Christ. I believe it is a product of a "fear-based" theologies. What purpose would God have for "hell?" If one answers, because of the need for justice, would not simply denying one from communion or being with God serve the same ends? Would not just simply 'extinguishing' or blotting one from any type existence also serve the same purpose?
Here's a thought or two....why would God want to punish us for making a choice that He Himself have laid before us? If He did not want us to make the second choice, why would He create other than the first? Instead, many choose to make God play the role of a condemning, vengeful, wrathful God....I just don't see it....


regards
seekerof


[Edited on 2-9-2003 by Seekerof]

Here are some interesting additional comments on the subject of Annihilationism:

www.tektonics.org...

www.tektonics.org...

christian-thinktank.com...

Thank you for presenting them Jagd.
Having read the 'tektonics' article's previously to posting this topic, they only serve and confirm one point I was making in bringing this topic forth: 'interpretation'.
Scholarly research has been done by many sides into this subject and like subjects. Each provide their particular scriptures and sources, sometimes overlapping each other in the process. One thing I did notice with the tektonic sites is that in many cases, as with scripture, hell has an 'alternative' meaning.
Example:
Mark 9:43 And if your hand makes you.....to go to hell*, inot the fire....." Hell is denoted here as implying the word Gehenna.
This is applied in most cases when the word hell is used.
Nonetheless, its all word/scripture semantics anyhow right? Hence the different denominations today. Interpretation and interpreting are the "dividing walls?"
We all believe in God but believe differently accordingly.

The question is, other than through prayer and asking God for guidance and to reveal what He wishes us to discern, which is the correct 'interpretation'?

Btw, did you read the links I provided or are the links you provided in answer to those links?

Thank you again for your time in commenting to this topic. God bless.

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 2-9-2003 by Seekerof]

you either live life and love or dont and see the damnation of our ancestors sins.