Romans 6:23....

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

First off, this is not a thread to "push" religion on anyone. I posted this for thought and opinion and perhaps structured debate.

Questions:

1) What does anyone feel or think of this particular passage from scripture?

2) "If the wages of sin is death," how does "death" refer to one going to Hell and eternal damnation?

From what I see above in the passage given is either your 'dead'-- no longer exist, or you are given 'eternal' life.
Anyone have their opinions or views to this particular passage and what it means to the church or to ones self?

Thank you for your responses.

regards
seekerof

it's the death of your eternal spirit

**Grommer**

I totally agree with your response. This is my belief as well.

In some lost thread I stated what my personal belief in what hell is. I won't go in as much detail here, but I believe it to be spiritual death. No longer in the presence of, or connected with God's spirit. Total darkness, no good present - to me this is "death", to me this is "hell"

And that is how I take this scripture as well.

The term "death" here is used figuratively to mean "separation from God". This is illustrated back in Genesis 2:16.

16. And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
17. but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Well we know that Adam and Eve did eat of the fruit and did not acutally die, but suffered "alienation/separation from God".

A good parallel passage for the message of Grace is Ephesians 2.8:
8. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
9. not by works, so that no one can boast.

"free gift is eternal life"-sounds like god is shelling out eternal life passes to everyone. I don't get the first part though. If you sin, then you die. Lots of people that sin die at a ripe old age. Must mean a spiritual death and the end of your presence. The two statements, under this logic, are contradictory in that they must be mutually exclusive.

"Well we know that Adam and Eve did eat of the fruit and did not acutally die, but suffered "alienation/separation from God"."

They had eternal life before, but after they ate the fruit they will die, eventually, from old age. It doesn't neccessarily mean a spiritual seperation from god.

[Edited on 31-8-2003 by TheManWithThePlan]

correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought that was romans 3:23...

nope, I was wrong.


[Edited on 31-8-2003 by Fury]

Well we do have Luke 16:19 which does indicate that the sinners will suffer eternal damnation:

19. "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
20. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
21. and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22. "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
23. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24. So he called to him, `Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25. "But Abraham replied, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
26. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27. "He answered, `Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house,
28. for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29. "Abraham replied, `They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30. "`No, father Abraham,' he said, `but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31. "He said to him, `If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"

Therefore, I conclude that there is a Hell and a place of damnation.

I can see what you are saying Jagd and I do thank you for your response but the correlation that I see in this passage is that it is dealing with "death" and "eternal life".....two opposites on the same spectrum. It also seems that "wages" refers to a result.

Does this passage deal with the state of the "sinner" verses the "saved" or does it refer to an actual condition of an individuals "soul" upon taking his/her last breath? Or both?

regards
seekerof

The Bible makes it pretty clear that we will have some form of physical body rather than being pure soul or spirit, that is what is meant by the ressurection.


Matthew 22:29
29. Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.
30. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
31. But about the resurrection of the dead--have you not read what God said to you,

Luke 14:12
12. Then Jesus said to his host, "When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid.
13. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,
14. and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."
15. When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, "Blessed is the man who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God."

Romans 6:3
3. Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4. We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.
6. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin--
7. because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
8. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
9. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.
10. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

1 Corinithians 15:12
12. But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13. If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
14. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.

1 Corinithians 15:41
41. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42. So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
43. it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44. it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Hebrews 6:1
1. Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,
2. instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

Ezekiel 18:4 --- God says, throught the prophet...:
"Behold, all souls are mine: as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die."

Does this not clearly indicate that the "soul" is not immortal? If the "soul" is not eternal, how can it recieve eteranl torment and damnation?

Solomon wrote: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

Again...."The wages of sin is death...." Life is promised to the righteous; death to the unrighteous. Rom. 6:23
I see conflict here between "eternal hell" being compared to "death". Over and over again "death" is emphasized as punishment of the wicked.
Sinners are declared "worthy of death" Romans 1:32
The end of sin is death Romans 6:21
And "sin, when it is finished, bringth forth death." James 1:15


As to the doctrine of "Hell":
Psalms 145:20
"All the wicked will be destroyed."

Evil angels once declared, in the presence of Jesus, "Art thou come to destroy us?" Mark 1:24

And again, the wicked will be "punished with everlasting destruction" 2 Thess. 1:9

And even the Devil himself, the one who introduced iniquity into this world, will be destroyed. Hebrew 2:14

Psalms 37:20
"The wicked shall perish."

Psalms 37:10
"The wicked shall not be."
This is paralleled in the New Testament by Jesus's statement that "whosoever believeth in him should not perish" John 3:16


Just some thoughts.

regards
seekerof

I am first going to quote the scripture here from the NRSV translation:

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."


To me this scripture is pivotal in delineating the states of sin and of salvation.

"wages of sin" - you get what you earn. If your master is sin (i.e. you have opted to stay in your sinful nature without accepting the offered gift of salvation) you work toward spiritual death just past that last breath you spoke of.

"Free gift of...eternal life" - salvation is nonmeritorious. You are no longer working for the sin-master. You have opted to accept the gift via the belief in the saving grace of the Christ's sacrifice.

I would urge anyone who might consider this topic to read at least the full chapter 6 and chapter 7 of Romans to bring this scripture into its context. It is in these writings the matter of the nonmeritorious nature of salvation, and the paradoxical tendency to continue to commit sinful acts is addressed.

Would like to follow up with a comment on Jag's post. I believe you are correct that the Bible is clear that the saved will have some form of body in eternity. But I do not recall any biblical indication has been made that that holds true for the lost.

"The Bible Hell"
hellbusters.8m.com...


regards
seekerof

I'd like people to know: I don't dismiss or recognize the notion of god. My philosophy is to open to all points of view. For instance the notion that god exists or does not.

The word eternal could be used to mean forever or tell the end of time or even tell the end of the world. At the day of judgement, all souls in hell and earth will be judged and i think will be destroyed if deemed sinful. Until the end or the world, which could be described as eternity, the souls of the sinful will be subjected to "eternal damnation." What does everyone think of this theory. I haven't read much of the bible, but from the examples of scripture here, It seems, to me, that this explains the contradictory statements.

Indeed, if you are looking for contradictory statements then you should compare religions. Compare Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam and Christianity. Not all of these teachings could be the truth.

Well we have this passage from Revelation 20:10 which seems to indicate that Satan and his followers will suffer punishment:

Revelation 20:10
10. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
14. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The term "day and night for ever and ever" does sound like some form of extended time period.

Okay, I knew this one was coming

Look at what it says:

"This is the second death, the lake of fire;..."

It does not say anything about some type of eternal physical or spritual torture. It says that this is the second death. i.e. into the lake of fire and you are no more.

And again, if you look in Revelation 21:8, "...their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

Death is a very specific word being used here. If there had been the intention to mean "punishment" or "torture" or "agony" or even "state" I don't believe "death" would have been used here. And to make sure that I'm being clear the exact same Greek word is being used in these passages (including Romans) as is used in all citations of the New Testament that refer to PHYSICAL death. Thanatos - death; deadly; with root thano - to die; be dead; die.

[Edited on 31-8-2003 by Valhall]

It says that satan and the antichrist were to eternally suffer. What would happen if a non-angelic being was thrown in. They could die in the spiritual sense.

Maybe the pool of sulfur is like a black hole. A black hole could cause the sky to darken and turn completely black, like in the prophecies. You know, the stuff about the sun turning black and all that. "Burning Surfur" sounds pretty hot and the atoms would generate visible light. Except, of course, if the gravitation pull was too great to let the light escape. A black hole would consistantly suck all the light from the stars, and the moon too.

[Edited on 31-8-2003 by TheManWithThePlan]

[Edited on 31-8-2003 by TheManWithThePlan]

To me arguing scripture is a totally worthless pastime. If you do not read ancient Greek, or Armenian, or Hebrew, or whatever ancient language the original text is in, then you do not know what the Bible says. YOU ONLY KNOW WHAT THE TRANSLATOR TELLS YOU IT SAYS. The people who have done the translating for you down through the centuries have always had their own agenda for including/omitting what they chose from their translations.

Actually, manw/plan, I don't think considering the "lake of fire" might be a blackhole out of the question. I have considered this myself. And you took the words right out of my mouth concerning the effects on human spirits/souls versus the effects of the nonhuman (angelic, demon, etc.).