Black Light Power

I am a Neandertal, so I'm most likely late with this, but have you guys heard of it?

Here isthe link to the inventer's site. He'll license you for commercial applications!

www.blacklightpower.com...

Black light is UV radiation, which will ionize molecules depending on what the material is.

I hadn't heard of this before, but it seems plausible and well explained at first glance. In theory you could be generating power from this process ... however, it does still involve the generation of hydrogen gas (by dissassociation from water via electrolysis).

It's not clear if the energy out (the chemical process they talk about) is significantly greater than the energy in (electrolysis to generate H2).

Seems like a great idea in theory, but from what I have read about plasmas and other high energy induced elements, its is very difficult to harness their potential energy. Like trying to harness the energy of a nuclear explosion (nuclear power uses radiation to turn a turbine). Which I do not see anything about on the website, please correct me if I am wrong.

Oh!!! How I long for the day that we dont rely on fossil fuels, taking the power away from the scum of the earth (bush, cheney, al-saud family, iranian theocracy and the likes).

I am a Neandertal, so I'm most likely late with this, but have you guys heard of it?

I first went to this site several months ago, when an ATS member used it as an example of bogus science, but I think the website has been around a lot longer than that, even

www.blacklightpower.com...

Dr. Mills has built on the field generally known as Quantum Mechanics by deriving a new atomic theory of Classical Quantum Mechanics (CQM) from first principles, which unifies Maxwell’s Equations, Newton’s Laws, and Einstein’s General and Special Relativity. The central feature is that physical laws hold over all scales, from the scale of subatomic particles to that of the cosmos.

If this was true, Dr. Mills would be hailed as a genius surpassing Einstein, Newton, and Hawking. He is basically claiming to have solved Unification theory, whereby all physical laws are reduced to a single, unified law. If he had managed to mathematically show this, he would be the greatest scientist of all time. If that's true, why has no one heard of him?

I'm quite skeptical of this, myself. He does have a lot of peer-reviewed papers and an online textbook on quantum mechanics, which I will check out. My suspicion is that Dr. Mills is just fishing for money. I think Mills has probably taken accepted quantum physics, put it in his book, then gone out on a limb with conjecture and theory with the blacklight stuff, and is hoping someone will buy the licencing. If this blacklight tech is really so promising, why isn't Mills himself manufacturing anything?

If the electrons in hydrogen were somehow made to move closer to the hydrogen nucleus, they would indeed give off energy as Dr. Mills claims. I haven't done the calculations, but I don't think it would be a significant amount, although it might be enough to get some practical use. What I don't see (and what I don't see Dr. Mills explaining, either) is just HOW the electrons are moving closer to the hydrogen nucleii, at least in any way that will produce usable energy in excess of the energy put into the process.

My training is in engineering, not physics, so I'm not up to snuff on some of this quantum stuff, so I welcome anyone with expertise to critique what I've said.

As a last note, why is Mills' textbook copyrighted with BlackLight Power? Does that mean his company published the book? If so, was he unable to publish the book with a mainstream publisher for some reason? It just seems rather odd to me that he hasn't published his book with some technical publisher, like McGraw Hill or Addison Wesley, who published several of my engineering books.

I've personally looked at Blacklight power before and asked colleagues who are internationally reknowned scientists (physics/chemistry professors) to do the same. The collective conclusion is unanimous: when you wade through all the stuff they throw out there (BLP's ability to spin equations and physics is quite impressive) you come down to some rather easily debunked pseudo-science:

BLP claims that hydrogen has a quantum state that is below the universally recognized ground state. They claim that they have a process by which they can force hydrogen into this lower state with a little UV generated from a discharge. Basically, the discharge causes H2 to dissociate. It recombines back to H2, but with their special process, it recombines and relaxes to a 'zeroth state'. The heat release caused by the relaxation into the heretofore unknown state is large - and is basically free energy because you only used a small amount of UV -based energy to tickle the H2 into dissociating. Indeed, there have been published papers in reputable physics journals examining this concept. Essentially, the papers are calorimetry studies that say that some small amount of energy may be produced, but calorimetry studies are notoriously innacurate. My old Chem I & Chem II students routinely demonstrated cold fusion with water, oil, and a bunsen burner.

Now, let's consider some facts:
1) QM theory of H2 has been extensively studied. Every student who ever takes a theoretical chemistry course calculates the energy states of H2 because it is a simple model system. The calculations can be done by hand or computer and compared to easily measured parameters. We know more about this molecule theoretically than any other. The QM calculations are absolutely, quantitatively confirmed by hundreds, if not thousands of experiments. The ground state of H2 is known. The existence of a 'zeroth' state of H2 would stand 80+ years of QM on its head.

2) If this zeroth state indeed existed, then there would be a finite possibility that every H2 molecule in the universe would find its way to it. Even if the transition is forbidden a dozen different ways by the selection rules of QM, it would still eventually get there given enough time. Given the age of the universe and prevalence of H2 within it, most (if not all) of the H2 in existence should be in this state. In fact, we shoudn't be able to detect any of the 'normal' H2 because it should all be in the zeroth state and undetectable by methods which look for traditional ground state H2. Physicists and astronomers see absolutely no evidence to support this.

3) This theory would stand chemistry on its head too. We know how H2 reacts to the Nth degree. Believe it or not, there are dozens of university research groups out there who to this day still study the reaction H + H2 both experimentally and theoretically. The agreement between theory and experiment is exact and to such a level of sophistication and minute detail as to be well, ridiculous. If the state of H2 existed that BLP claims, there would be absolutely no way that we could have the kind of agreement between theory and experiment that we now have. The theories used to achieve this agreement underpin all of chemistry. If they are proven to be wrong, then you can throw 100 years of textbooks out the window.

The bottom line is that BLP has fooled a lot of people. This has been looked into many, many times. An obscene amount of money has been invested into the company and by various government agencies. It is bogus.

BTW, scientific revolutions of the kind that made Einstein, Newton, Boltzmann, etc. generally are produced when a problem or clear, unambiguous contradiction within science is identified or solved. The ultraviolet catastrophe, double slit experiment, and the experiments that destroyed the aether theory are examples. BLP has not identified such a contradition. They have some rather ambiguous experimental results that can easily explained a dozen different ways with known chemistry and physics.

Originally posted by ChemicalLaser

BLP claims that hydrogen has a quantum state that is below the universally recognized ground state. They claim that they have a process by which they can force hydrogen into this lower state with a little UV generated from a discharge. Basically, the discharge causes H2 to dissociate. It recombines back to H2, but with their special process, it recombines and relaxes to a 'zeroth state'. The heat release caused by the relaxation into the heretofore unknown state is large - and is basically free energy because you only used a small amount of UV -based energy to tickle the H2 into dissociating.

Yea this rather peculiar ... if we can compute the lowest energy state of the H2 molecule via solution of schroedingers, then it's difficult to believe that it's possible to obtain a lower state.

But is H2 at room temperature in the lowest energy state? I would think it would not necessarily be due to thermal fluctuations.

Additionally (also coming from engineering to physics), are there several possible configurations of electron spins that can exist in an H2 molecule, or only one?

Originally posted by grad_student

Originally posted by ChemicalLaser

BLP claims that hydrogen has a quantum state that is below the universally recognized ground state. They claim that they have a process by which they can force hydrogen into this lower state with a little UV generated from a discharge. Basically, the discharge causes H2 to dissociate. It recombines back to H2, but with their special process, it recombines and relaxes to a 'zeroth state'. The heat release caused by the relaxation into the heretofore unknown state is large - and is basically free energy because you only used a small amount of UV -based energy to tickle the H2 into dissociating.

Yea this rather peculiar ... if we can compute the lowest energy state of the H2 molecule via solution of schroedingers, then it's difficult to believe that it's possible to obtain a lower state.

But is H2 at room temperature in the lowest energy state? I would think it would not necessarily be due to thermal fluctuations.

The electronic partition function of H2 at 300 K is 1. While numerous rotational states are populated at room temperature and there might be a very tiny fraction of molecules in the v = 1 state (I forget the vibrational frequency of H2), BLP is referring to a nonexistent lower electronic state in their theory.

Additionally (also coming from engineering to physics), are there several possible configurations of electron spins that can exist in an H2 molecule, or only one?

Ortho / Para Hydrogen is well known and well understood:
scienceworld.wolfram.com...

Facts #1 and #3 are almost certain to be correct. They indicate a very good chance BLP is full of it, but they don't prove it. Science has been stood on its head before. Ask Planck or Einstein about that.

Fact #2 proves BLP is false. If it was possible for hydrogen to exist in a state lower than the first level, then this would be it's natural state, due to energy favorability conditions, and most hydrogen in the universe would be in that state, just as most hydrogen is in the first energy state now, unless it has been excited somehow.

Incidentally, since it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that BLP is false, that online textbook on their site is probably a bunch of hooey, too.

While I support the serious doubts that have been expressed here, I would like to add however that the forming of such a hydrogen plasma is not yet understood and seemingly impossible with current physics, while it does seem at first sight to coincide with some of the hydrino theory predictions.

If that is the case Chemical what is your take on this? While I fully don't understand the mechanics of it, this would be able to solve the fuel crisis. Weither or not it is cost effective or not, I wouldn't know.

Also is this a hoax site or is this actually possible?


-Aza

Originally posted by Azathoth
If that is the case Chemical what is your take on this? While I fully don't understand the mechanics of it, this would be able to solve the fuel crisis. Weither or not it is cost effective or not, I wouldn't know.

Also is this a hoax site or is this actually possible?


-Aza

The website you link to contains the following rather alarming paragraph.

Brown's Gas is simply WATER ~ in a special and unique form. This 'high-energy' form of water has the capacity to positively affect every aspect of our lives. It can enhance our health; dramatically lower the cost of manufacturing products; improve the environment; even neutralize radioactive waste. Sounds too good to be true? We know. In fact, even once you experience this gentle, eco-friendly, yet powerful gas, you'll still be astounded.

I haven't the slightest idea what they mean by high energy water. Neutralize radioactive waste? It sounds like BS to me, but unfortunatly they don't provide near enough details to make any kind of quantitative or qualitative analysis.

Well that site i got from a site which i first found it on

Browns gas Rhodes Gas

It looks to be a H2 O2 combination. How it chemically works i don't know. it has a few research papers on this site. I just want to know if this is real or bogus.

thanks

-Aza

There is an interesting news article about the brown gas posted by GradyPhilpott here: www.atsnn.com...

I did find one semi interesting article from Fox TV that says:

The duo is already in negotiations with one U.S. automaker and the U.S. government. Members of Congress recently invited Denny Klein to Washington to demonstrate his technology and his company is currently developing a Hummer for the U.S. military that can run on both water and gasoline. So far, his water-powered engines have passed all performance safety inspections.

Hum. The Duo? This is one guy with an idea and an accountant? Still not a smoking gun.

Moving on, there was also the statement

Denny Klein has just patented his process of converting H2O to HHO, producing a gas that combines the atomic power of hydrogen with the chemical stability of water.

Well ATS members should be able to find that patent and analyze it PDQ.

Thats all I had time for, cuz I think that it is probably a bunch of hoowie.

Very good post Chemical . It's great that ATS has people with the knowledge to debunk what the rest of us might easily believe. I read through it and it fooled me, but then again, my knowledge of physics and chemistry is limited so I couldn't spot anything wrong.