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ABUSE CRISIS: Claims By Soldier - Superiors Ordered Prisoner Abuse

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posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 07:53 PM
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Sergeant Javal Davis, a US soldier who was sentenced to six months jail after admititng to deliberately stepping on the hands and feet of handcuffed prisoners, has stated that the orders came from his superiors. Davis, a guard at the now famous Abu Ghraib prison said he was instructed to "make life as unpleasant as possible' for the prisoners he was guarding. He said he found some of the things he was asked to do distressing but he was left with an open door to do almost anything he wanted.
 



www.abc.net.au
Sgt Davis says he found some of the things he was asked to do distressing.

"For example, the nakedness, the hooding, the handcuffing of the detainees in compromising positions, like handcuffed behind their back in an uncomfortable way or handcuffed to the bar door door or something," he said.


Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


Sergeant Davis also stated that he asked for orders for abuse to be put in writing but despite repeated requests his superiors refused to.

Once again this soldier is a scapegoat. he admits to taking part in the abuses but says the orders came from higher up. Why are just the lowly soldier being charged over these incidents. Why hasn't the officers involved had to face the world over the abuse claims. Soldiers follow orders. To refuse orders is to ask for a court martial.




posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 08:05 PM
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I don't know who I'm talking to here...lol, but if you've been here any length of time you should know I agree that the stink goes further up the line than just the lower-level MP's being tried for the Abu Ghraib abuses. But I'm not ready to say "just another scapegoat"...nope, to me there is far too much evidence against several of these twerps at the bottom that they were just sadistic little bastahds who got a kick out of being cruel.

It's easy to say somebody told you to do it...you actually have to prove that though.

Like I said, that doesn't mean I don't believe there are people up the chain of command who need to be brought to accountability on this.



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 08:10 PM
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I voted yes, i think we all need to look at whats really happening and not blame it all on the troops. Their directives come from their superiors.
I dont beleive our people go there and abuse them "just because" . Americans are good by nature and if they do any abusing its with the blessing of those in charge.



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 08:28 PM
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Originally posted by dgtempe
Their directives come from their superiors.
I dont beleive our people go there and abuse them "just because" . Americans are good by nature and if they do any abusing its with the blessing of those in charge.


That's a bit naive. There wasn't any one in charge of the BTK killer, now was there? He's an American. There are bad people dgtempe...bad bad people just looking for an opportunity to do warped stuff.

My point isn't to redirect investigation from the chain of command - because like I said before I think this goes up and there are people "up" who need to be brought to accountability - my point is that these sick people at the bottom who got kicks out of torturing people don't need to try to get out of the consequences of their sadistic behavior with defenses. If they want to bring some one above them down with them...that's great...but using it as a defense makes it hard for me to swallow.



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 08:42 PM
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I agree with the fact that nobody made them do it at gunpoint. They did it of their own free will. It took a few bad apples. I guess the point i was trying to make was that these mal-intentioned people were instigated by a few superiors and they were off and running with the abuse.
They had it in them, to begin with.

If we as citizens didnt have the police to worry about, and didnt have to uphold the law,Lord knows what crimes and mayhem would be committed
out there. Just think we do have laws and look at the news!
The subordinates are suppose to control the troops, imho



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 08:50 PM
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Great catch Mayet. One of my first WATS votes in a couple of months for you!

This soldier is only stating what was confirmed in the leaked memorandums that came from Defence Secretary Rumsfeld himself. The ones that he offered to resign over.

[edit on 20/8/05 by subz]



posted on Aug, 21 2005 @ 05:49 AM
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I knew this Orders came from the Very Top of the "Food Chain".

It's just a Matter of Time, when we will find out, which Big Fish did order such abuses and where the hell is he hiding!

Great Find Mayet!





You have voted Mayet for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.



[edit on 21/8/05 by Souljah]



posted on Aug, 21 2005 @ 06:05 AM
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Yes Valhall I do agree, Violence begets violence and unfortunately social restraints taught to us from birth were stifled and base cruelty allowed to rampage unchecked.

The soldiers have no excuse but the officers have less of one. As superior officers they should be setting a humane example to their charges.

It really is an interesting insight into human behaviour and how anomalies can form. We have seen this behaviour in war situations before throughout time, in the 20th century some good exmples would be World War 2, the Serbian - Bosnian conflict and many other third world country civil wars. What is an interesting facet is that here is a developed country with ettiquette, manners and so called brotherly love towards fellow man taking part in these behaviours.

The "Were these people carrying out orders" versus "were these soldiers just acting out cruel inner instincts and anger" issue should be looked hard an thoroughly at.

What went through these soldiers minds, was it pride in the cruelty they were inflicting or was there somewhere inside they felt mortally regretful? What would have happened if a soldier who was trained to obey commands and living in a deep impact war situation, bucked the system and refused? What did happen to soldiers and were there any soldiers that did complain and refuse the orders? Do they express regret or do they shrug and say well thats how it was and go about their lives without a backward thought?

Its a big mess but there are many lessons to learn from the situation, the first being that as a race, the human race, we cannot go forward to build a planet of peace and advance into the future in harmony.

Man is supposedly above the animals of our world, Man is supposed be be the superior species but the strangest thing is animals do not partake of this behaviour. They kill to eat, they kill to feed, they kill to live. Here we have a situation were man lives to kill, lives to hurt, and lives to totally degrade other human beings.

What does make man so special? Why is man above all other species? Certainly not this behaviour by either the officers using the soldiers and prisoners as a means to their own ends or certainly not the soldiers by partaking in these abuses and photographing them smiling for future prosterity.

Oh and thanks for the votes people.. I am flattered....

[edit on 21-8-2005 by Mayet]



posted on Aug, 21 2005 @ 06:19 AM
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Originally posted by dgtempe
I voted yes, i think we all need to look at whats really happening and not blame it all on the troops. Their directives come from their superiors.
I dont beleive our people go there and abuse them "just because" . Americans are good by nature and if they do any abusing its with the blessing of those in charge.


Freshmen class Terror Class......first lecture "LIE"
Freshemn class Terror class.......Day 2 ."LIE"
Senior Class Terror Class final day...."LIE and Murder and LIE"

Did I leave anything out.......oh yes Terrorist LIE. Their job is to KILL YOU do you really want to believe they won't LIE to you....

LOL on the wooden floors of my concrete bunker..........



posted on Aug, 21 2005 @ 06:35 AM
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Originally posted by SkepticSanity
Freshmen class Terror Class......first lecture "LIE"
Freshemn class Terror class.......Day 2 ."LIE"
Senior Class Terror Class final day...."LIE and Murder and LIE"

Did I leave anything out.......oh yes Terrorist LIE. Their job is to KILL YOU do you really want to believe they won't LIE to you....


Did it escape your notice that there are no "terrorists" in this article?

I thought we had a new policy against hate and bait posts?



posted on Aug, 21 2005 @ 06:51 AM
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[
Did it escape your notice that there are no "terrorists" in this article?

I thought we had a new policy against hate and bait posts?


Sorry I just can't seem to find any compassion for those that murder children with fanatical suicide bombs in the name of "Allah". This guy is in trouble for stepping on hands while the real enemy cuts of heads. Just can't seem to "hate" the hand stepper...........prison for terrorist should be "unpleasant".


"hate and bait?" How about a reality check? The real abuse chrisis is from the insanity of worrying about being "unpleasant" to terrorist.....



posted on Aug, 21 2005 @ 06:55 AM
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Originally posted by SkepticSanity
"hate and bait?" How about a reality check? The real abuse chrisis is from the insanity of worrying about being "unpleasant" to terrorist.....

How about this:

The MAJORITY of these alleged "Terrorists" that are in Prisons, are Innocent and have NOT been Charged with Anything in 3 Years Time! They just sit there and wait for their time to be kicked and beaten and God knows what else. The Majority of these "Terrorists" that are arrested are just Guilty until Proven Innocent - and forgive my harsh words - but that is a Nazi-SS Technique.



posted on Aug, 21 2005 @ 07:36 AM
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I don't know how many who post here were in the military but it was my experince on board ship anyhow that we had very little wiggle room for our own initiative so the claim that it was just a few rogue bad apples just does not ring true to me...at the same time so much energy had been spent by this administration to demonize Iraqi's before the war and attempting to tie it into 9/11 that such abuse doesn't surprise me either...if this administrative weren't so damned secretive and obstructionist, it would go a long way to absolving (or proving them guilty) of involvement in this abuse. As it is, their secrecy makes them look guilty, even if they are possibly innocent. Be that as it may, considering the intellectual make-up of this administration. I really can't help but believe approval for this went up to Donald Rumsfelt or higher, all he way up to the Bush himself.

[edit on 21-8-2005 by John bull 1]



posted on Aug, 21 2005 @ 08:04 AM
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Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe

Originally posted by SkepticSanity
Freshmen class Terror Class......first lecture "LIE"
Freshemn class Terror class.......Day 2 ."LIE"
Senior Class Terror Class final day...."LIE and Murder and LIE"

Did I leave anything out.......oh yes Terrorist LIE. Their job is to KILL YOU do you really want to believe they won't LIE to you....


Did it escape your notice that there are no "terrorists" in this article?

I thought we had a new policy against hate and bait posts?


Don't get carried away myprobeyfriend...he's only seeing the other side of the prison situation, not baiting. I can't personally understand how anyone can swallow the line that it is okay to be brutal and inhumane to any other human, no matter what that human IS guilty of, let alone a human that has not even been proven to be guilty of anything at all. Since when do two wrongs make a right anyway?

Souljah and I don't agree very often, but today we do. Some of these people in the "concentration camps" we are running have now been in captivity for almost 4 years without charges, judicial procedings, etc.

For those of you who would like to look at the real docs that show the the chain of command complicity, or at least incompetence that led to the Abu Ghraib abuses, here are a couple of reviews of the released documents connected with the Taguba investigation. It's probably a good time to bring them up:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 8-21-2005 by Valhall]



posted on Aug, 21 2005 @ 08:44 AM
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Originally posted by Valhall
Don't get carried away myprobeyfriend...he's only seeing the other side of the prison situation, not baiting.


Of course he's baiting. The article is about a US soldier who's admitted he committed abuses and is claiming he was ordered to commit abuses. The comments about terrorists lying don't serve any purpose except to derail the thread, which they accomplished with amazing speed and efficiency.

Unless the poster is claming Sgt. Davis is a terrorist?



posted on Aug, 21 2005 @ 08:48 AM
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Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe

Originally posted by Valhall
Don't get carried away myprobeyfriend...he's only seeing the other side of the prison situation, not baiting.


Of course he's baiting. The article is about a US soldier who's admitted he committed abuses and is claiming he was ordered to commit abuses. The comments about terrorists lying don't serve any purpose except to derail the thread, which they accomplished with amazing speed and efficiency.

Unless the poster is claming Sgt. Davis is a terrorist?



No, you're having an inability to see the EXTREME other side of this. There are people (we've got several of them on this board) who believe the prisoners in these various installations are ALL terrorists, and because they want to kill us, all is fair. With that viewpoint it doesn't matter if it was the MPs only, or their superiors.

You don't have to agree with them, you just have to accept that as their point of view. Which, as hard to state when you vehemently don't agree with it, is a viewpoint that can't be silenced. And that's his point of view on this subject...apparently.



posted on Aug, 21 2005 @ 10:59 AM
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LOL, so the real issue here is that they abused the wrong prisoners ?

People seem to forget that the Abu Ghraib incident occurred in a specific wing of the prison where high risk inmates were kept. These aren't the innocent ole Iraqi's some people would like to think they are.

PS. What are the Iraqi's complaining about about ? They had the same things happen under Saddam, they should be used to it.




[edit on 21-8-2005 by rogue1]



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