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Do we need an ATS Court?

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posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 02:36 PM
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A question to the Mods on this topic; If a member is "warned", what recourse does the "offender" have? I mean to say, if someone disagrees with the warning, if the member feels that he was simply misunderstood, does the member have any recourse? Does he have any option to try to explain his actions and the circumstances surrounding them?




posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 02:38 PM
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Yes...that member can use the "help/gripe" function to explain their position.



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 02:47 PM
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No habeus corpus for you! Well you get a taste of it, but you don't have a right to a trial by a jury of your peers.



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 02:49 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
No habeus corpus for you! Well you get a taste of it, but you don't have a right to a trial by a jury of your peers.


The meaning is lost on me, care to boil it down for me?



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 02:52 PM
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Wow, we could elect lawyers to represent members cases. You know, this would just be an interesting game to play on ATS.

Think tanks !

Luxifero



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 02:54 PM
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Originally posted by Luxifero
Wow, we could elect lawyers to represent members cases. You know, this would just be an interesting game to play on ATS.


Now we need counselors as well as councilors?


This place is getting too complicated for me...



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 03:04 PM
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Do we need an ATS Court?


No......

....ATS is a great microcosm virtual society, but let's not forget the purpose of ATS, and that is to disseminate information for those who want to know more than the mainstream is letting them in on......

Further obscuring of that one main goal by added social constraints/drama would be a step in the wrong direction.......in my opinion.



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 03:04 PM
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Originally posted by intrepid
The meaning is lost on me, care to boil it down for me?


Habeus corpus, the ability to have a case inspected by a court. But, we don't really have a court, more like a protest button. So, it's similar to habeus corpus, but not quite there.

Also, we don't have a panel of ordinary ATS members who decide whether a warning/banning was warranted, so there is no trial by jury. I wouldn't consider moderators ordinary members, just because of the power that they have. In other non-administrative manners you are ordinary, but just like the judge shouldn't be on a jury, neither would it make sense to have moderators on a jury.

I honestly don't care about having any sort of ATS court, I was just trying to make a joke, and sort of brain-storming on what an ATS court would be like.



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 03:07 PM
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Originally posted by Luxifero
Wow, we could elect lawyers to represent members cases. You know, this would just be an interesting game to play on ATS.

Think tanks !

Luxifero



Don't even think of going there Luxifero, I tried that tact with my ATS Bank thread and it was shut down faster than excrement slides through a goose. We will all simply have to accept that ATS/BTS, despite it's recent elections, is NOT a democracy. It is a corporate entity whose interests are not necessarily in making you or me happy. ATS/BTS is a dictatorship....hopefully a sort of benevolent tyranny. Nevertheless, when ATS/BTS is viewed as a corporate entity, and not as a democratic "virtual community", it becomes clear why ATS/BTS might act as it has in the past and promises to act in the future. There is no time to be bogged down with petty arguments and disputes. Dissent must be stopped quickly and thoroughly or else, like a poison, it will spread throughout the forums and ATS/BTS will degenerate into a place where noone will want to go.

It took me a while to realize this. At first I was angry, even upset, but I realize that, in a sense, this is the best for ATS/BTS. Sometimes a dictator can get more done than a democracy. Just check out Joseph Stalin. Sure, he may have caused the deaths of 30 million of his own people but in the process he dragged the Soviet Union and it's people out of the dark ages and he molded a nation. "Uncle Joe" did not allow himself to get mired in petty disputes and, to his credit, he is still often deified, even worshipped, by the Russian people.

And though the idea of an ATS court, an ATS bank, an ATS stock exchange and an ATS casino etc might seem to be good ideas....ideas that might serve to enrich a global "virtual community", they are not necessarily ideas that are workable at the present or even desirable by those powers that be in the corporate chambers of ATS.



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 03:10 PM
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Cool, thanks Jamuhn. Actually every move a Mod makes is scrutinized, we are very much more under the watchful eyes of the rest of the staff and we have guidelines to work by. We all work together for the betterment of the site. Arbitrary warnings don't happen. It's a priviledge to be a member of the staff, abuse it and you will lose it.

So basically, a court isn't needed.



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
Habeus corpus, the ability to have a case inspected by a court. But, we don't really have a court, more like a protest button. So, it's similar to habeus corpus, but not quite there.


That's not really the meaning of habeus corpus, it means literally "do you have the body"...it means the government has to show evidence of your crime to a court in order to hold you in prison etc...

Not to nitpick, but I think it's an important difference from what you said.

edit:

As a historical aside, the writ of Habeus Corpus was the only right deemed important enough to include in the body of the U.S. Constitution...all other guarantees are spelled out in the Amendments.

[edit on 8/20/2005 by djohnsto77]



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 03:17 PM
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yes, Habeus Corpus translates from latin as "present the body" or present before the body of a court. anyway, yes we need some kind of recourse other than gripe. I have asked for replies and have submitted it a number of times and yet i get no answers. I ask in a chat and am told to shut up and then got baned! Regular members cant access the complaint board so even if our complaints were addressed we would never know about it. Maybe we could have some of these issues submitted by a group of mods for a unanimous decision especially if its something like a baning? Whats worse is that there seems to be a double standard, and some of you know what i mean and i dont wish to elaborate because i fear it will only bring more warnings and thus more issues. Please give us something more than the gripe function.



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 03:21 PM
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Hmm...

I fondly recall a thread about this, wherein I was promptly applauded.


i dont think it needs to be done quite like that. rather than make it a whole big show, which cant be enforced at all, you could set up a system where someone reviews posts and threads, sees what people write, and hands out decisions on it. theyd warn the poster a few times that what they were doing is detrimental to the site, and should stop it, possibly with penalties. and, eventually, if the problem persists, they could hand over the names to SO for review, and possibly a banning.



sounds pretty much like a moderator to me. and, by pretty much, I mean exactly. sorry bro.


As intrepid said, the actions of the moderators are heavily scrutinized, by all the other mods and admin and council members, and most of all by the members. Often actions involve multiple mods. And as kinglizard said, there's that Gripe option which is so often used, as well as the very lovely u2u function. Any action we take is open to questioning, as long as it's moderately sane.



bt, the reason a lot of those ideas won't fly is because points aren't money, they're earned as a result of your posting. It defeats the purpose to promote the garnering of points by means other than quality posting.



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 03:31 PM
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I understand what your saying about it becoming where you cant enforce these things at all. but on the other hand it shouldnt be a group of mods going around like the gestapo and their word is law. We need some recourse, and whether thats we can have the situation submitted to SO for review or something similiar would be nice.


Its like the baiting situation, look above as you post and you read "MEMBERS: Do not simply post news articles in the forums without comment. If you feel inclined to make the board aware of current events,
please post the first paragraph, a link to the entire story, AND your opinion, twist or take on the news item." now your not allowed to do that because it can be considered "baiting". The description of baiting is so vague and open ended for intrepretation by whomever.

The council was supposed to be a buffer between members and mods, yet it's so highly exclusive you can not participate. you can only u2u a member.

Please consider these things.



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 03:41 PM
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Originally posted by XphilesPhan
it shouldnt be a group of mods going around like the gestapo and their word is law.


Damn right. And damn good thing it isn't. Every single person on this website is held responsible for their actions, for better or for worse. There is no gestapo, we are not above the Terms and Conditions, and that is definitely that.


If you feel inclined to make the board aware of current events,
please post the first paragraph, a link to the entire story, AND your opinion, twist or take on the news item." now your not allowed to do that because it can be considered "baiting".


That's just wrong. Post the news, give your opinion, just don't rant your head off about how the (insert political party) is a(n) (insert between 2 and 5 immature insults). It's pointless, and only hurts the board. Intelligent posting, however, is exactly what that quote is encouraging.


The council was supposed to be a buffer between members and mods, yet it's so highly exclusive you can not participate. you can only u2u a member.


What does that mean? Of course you can't participate directly in a democraticaly elected group of members for a select number of positions. Once again, you can u2u them. That's exactly the equivalent of talking to them. Believe me, if you put "Council Request/Suggestion/Thoughts/Complaint/Etc." in the title they'll read it and reply right away. The same goes for any mod.



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 03:42 PM
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Originally posted by XphilesPhan
but on the other hand it shouldnt be a group of mods going around like the gestapo and their word is law.


You know if I respected your opinion I may take offense to your comments. Why don’t you learn a little about history before you start calling people Nazis.



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 03:44 PM
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Originally posted by kinglizard

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
but on the other hand it shouldnt be a group of mods going around like the gestapo and their word is law.


You know if I respected your opinion I may take offense to your comments. Why don’t you learn a little about history before you start calling people Nazis.


Dont take it so literally and please sont resort to a personal attack. Im just expressing my opinion and yes maybe the metaphor was harsh.



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 03:53 PM
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X: Can you express your opinion without degraging this thread? There is way to much silly fighting on ATS. I can understand debating but this ISN'T debating. This is just personal attacks and bickering. You have to sort through threads to find good posts. And comparign the moderatings staff to the gestapo? They're more like policemen and women..... enforcing the T&C for the good of everyone... cept the oens breakign the T&C... who are the ones who whine and compare moderators to the gestapo.

[edit on 033131p://54083 by cpr12r]



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 03:56 PM
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Can we please return to the topic and not have cpr hijacking this thread? Its already pretty much a touchy subject it seems. Thanks.



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 04:04 PM
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Originally posted by XphilesPhan
Can we please return to the topic and not have cpr hijacking this thread?


What you prefer that everyone not comment on you calling 34 people that moderate this site Nazis? Don’t tell me you are trying to take the high road. Why don’t you take responsibility for your own posts and stop trying to pass the blame and focus to others.




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