Vatican and Evil

Originally posted by edsinger

Originally posted by AnonymousUserVIIIf anyone is evil it is the Protestant church. The Protestants all offer an instant salvation as if it is just that easy. Accepting Jesus Christ as your savior won't do, a Christian has to do more. You have to accept Jesus Christ as your savior, have complete faith in Him and surrender your will to Him, and you have to live a moral life of good deeds and love of one another in peace.

Well that is not what the Bible says, lets take a look...Yeah I know faith without works is dead....but the works come with faith.....the 2 can not co-exist.

Eph 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
Eph 2:5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

These are just 2 verses but the theme is consistant, you must BELIEVE to be saved, there is no amount of works that can save you. Its a FREE gift.

So what then? Just keep getting forgiven every Sunday?

Rom 5:21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Rom 6:3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
Rom 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.

No , then you would not be repentant....

I suggest you re-read my posts edsinger. I never said that only good works can get you salvation. I said:

"Accepting Jesus Christ as your savior won't do, a Christian has to do more. You have to accept Jesus Christ as your savior, have complete faith in Him and surrender your will to Him, and you have to live a moral life of good deeds and love of one another in peace."

You said this:

Well that is not what the Bible says, lets take a look...Yeah I know faith without works is dead....but the works come with faith.....the 2 can not co-exist.

Faith without works is dead AND works without faith is dead, they HAVE to co-exist if you want salvation. Faith and good works are one. You can't have faith only and be saved, and you can't have good works only and be saved. You have to have them both.

And I am not going to quote from the bible, because we could have a battle of contradictory quotes for an eternity. But the fact that the quotes contradict tells us that God believes in both of them, not just one. We argue over which is right, what I am saying is that they BOTH are right. God believes that we need to have FAITH AND GOOD WORKS together in order to be saved. Protestants preach that you can be saved simply by accepting Jesus Christ. Catholics preach that you can only be saved by accepting him in faith and doing good deeds. They are of equal importance and are interchangeable. You can't have faith but then continue to sin and continue to ignore the injustices going on on earth just because you think you are saved and set for eternity.

Originally posted by AnonymousUserVII
Your sick you know that. You blame everyone involved with the church for what some corrupt ones did to children? It's not about "covering up". It's about forgiveness. Just because your a priest doesn't make you a child molester. The amount of preists who did that were microscopic compared to the good and pious priests that are on this earth. The media just blew it up so much that it seemed like a widespread epedemic. If you trust the media then your not denying ignorance. Catholicism isn't a cult. It's been around for 2000 years, I doubt a "cult" could survive that long. You can believe in whatever conspiratory lies you hear, but don't bash a religion that has been around for 2000 years and is held dear by 1.8 billion people worldwide you ignorant fool.

sick maby, but i doubt any more than you, as for my alter boy quote that was not signified as a quote "chubby bum alter boy" i took it from a popular morning radio show "the bro jake show", and as for you calling me an ignorant fool over my opinion, i doubt i have to tell you how little of a man you are for trying to insult someone you don't think you will ever meet, where im from theres names for people like you, but ill wait for the oportunity to say it to your face

anyway my point stands, the churches are evil, priests are evil, my stomach knows this. every time i see a priest dressed in fancy cloths i cringe and get dark feeling. i want to point out that i've met some pastures and church organizers that i found very heart warming, not to take anything away from them but i felt like alot of them were alone, save the church, and that is where they went to feel loved again.

Originally posted by AnonymousUserVII


You said this:

Well that is not what the Bible says, lets take a look...Yeah I know faith without works is dead....but the works come with faith.....the 2 can not co-exist.

Faith without works is dead AND works without faith is dead, they HAVE to co-exist if you want salvation. Faith and good works are one. You can't have faith only and be saved, and you can't have good works only and be saved. You have to have them both.

Oh did I make a BIG boo boo, What I wrote was NOT correct, I meant to say they can not BUT co-exist.......ouch I should reread my posts. Sorry about the confusion.

But, that being said, John 3:16 is specific, all that IS required is faith. If you have that, the good works will be there. If you don't, they will not be.

We do not need to argue this, I being Lutheran KNOW that Catholics are Christians, there is no doubt. I just feel that saying faith AND good works makes your salvation dependent on you. I think it does not, there is nothing that we can do, for God CHOSE us.....

Again sorry about the goof up there, that is just plain stupid of me and I will edit it.

Originally posted by dazed and confused

Originally posted by AnonymousUserVII
Your sick you know that. You blame everyone involved with the church for what some corrupt ones did to children? It's not about "covering up". It's about forgiveness. Just because your a priest doesn't make you a child molester. The amount of preists who did that were microscopic compared to the good and pious priests that are on this earth. The media just blew it up so much that it seemed like a widespread epedemic. If you trust the media then your not denying ignorance. Catholicism isn't a cult. It's been around for 2000 years, I doubt a "cult" could survive that long. You can believe in whatever conspiratory lies you hear, but don't bash a religion that has been around for 2000 years and is held dear by 1.8 billion people worldwide you ignorant fool.

sick maby, but i doubt any more than you, as for my alter boy quote that was not signified as a quote "chubby bum alter boy" i took it from a popular morning radio show "the bro jake show", and as for you calling me an ignorant fool over my opinion, i doubt i have to tell you how little of a man you are for trying to insult someone you don't think you will ever meet, where im from theres names for people like you, but ill wait for the oportunity to say it to your face

anyway my point stands, the churches are evil, priests are evil, my stomach knows this. every time i see a priest dressed in fancy cloths i cringe and get dark feeling. i want to point out that i've met some pastures and church organizers that i found very heart warming, not to take anything away from them but i felt like alot of them were alone, save the church, and that is where they went to feel loved again.

I don't care where you got that "chubby bum alter boy" comment from, you still wrote it. I am not insulting you for disagreeing with me, I am insulting you for being ignorant, perverted, and making light of child molestation. And I don't care what twisted "feelings" you get when you walk past a priest, that is just ridiculous. Whatever "feelings" you get is no reason to condem the religion of 1.8 billion Christians. I think those "evil feelings" you are getting are from yourself not any priest. And why did you say this:

"how little of a man you are for trying to insult someone you don't think you will ever meet, where im from theres names for people like you, but ill wait for the oportunity to say it to your face".

Are you threatening me? Are you actually suggesting that you are going to look for me and harm me? You really are crazy aren't you. I would love to see you try and do that. You live in Vancouver right? I challenge you to come find me. You do that and see what happens.

*sigh* It's a shame when the actual "crazies" come here and make the rest of us look bad.

OK you 2 calm down this is not the place for this crap.

Just chill and move on.....

Originally posted by edsinger

Originally posted by AnonymousUserVII


You said this:

Well that is not what the Bible says, lets take a look...Yeah I know faith without works is dead....but the works come with faith.....the 2 can not co-exist.

Faith without works is dead AND works without faith is dead, they HAVE to co-exist if you want salvation. Faith and good works are one. You can't have faith only and be saved, and you can't have good works only and be saved. You have to have them both.

Oh did I make a BIG boo boo, What I wrote was NOT correct, I meant to say they can not BUT co-exist.......ouch I should reread my posts. Sorry about the confusion.

But, that being said, John 3:16 is specific, all that IS required is faith. If you have that, the good works will be there. If you don't, they will not be.

We do not need to argue this, I being Lutheran KNOW that Catholics are Christians, there is no doubt. I just feel that saying faith AND good works makes your salvation dependent on you. I think it does not, there is nothing that we can do, for God CHOSE us.....

Again sorry about the goof up there, that is just plain stupid of me and I will edit it.

You read John 3:16, wheras I read the entire bible. You can find quotes in the bible saying you have to have faith, and you can find quotes saying you have to be moral. They are both in the bible because they are both equally important, they aren't there to choose between. Our salvation is dependant on us, Christ cannot save us if we do not want to be saved. And I do not appreaciate derogatory sarcasm. Maybe trolls would appreciate that, but I do not.

Originally posted by AnonymousUserVII
You read John 3:16, wheras I read the entire bible. You can find quotes in the bible saying you have to have faith, and you can find quotes saying you have to be moral. They are both in the bible because they are both equally important, they aren't there to choose between. Our salvation is dependant on us, Christ cannot save us if we do not want to be saved. And I do not appreaciate derogatory sarcasm. Maybe trolls would appreciate that, but I do not.

I am not trying to be sarcastic at all. Of course God says in many places that you must be "good" and not evil.

You miss my point entirely.

If you believe, then the good works will follow.......

one can be the nicest guy in the world and do 1000's of great things help the poor etc etc, and if he doesn't BELIEVE, he doesn't get into heaven.

Respectfully you and I disagree, no sarcasm was intended, sorry you took it that way.

I take the Word seriously and when it says that all that is required to believe or call upon his name, I take it verbatim.

The old testament was the same,

Joel 2:32 And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls.


Acts 2:20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
Acts 2:21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'


The Bible is consistent in my eyes and it does not put a whole bunch of conditions on Grace...its free...and there is only one condition one must meet. There is no amount of good you can do to get to heaven, but I will again state, that when one believes the fruits show that.

Originally posted by edsinger

Originally posted by AnonymousUserVII
You read John 3:16, wheras I read the entire bible. You can find quotes in the bible saying you have to have faith, and you can find quotes saying you have to be moral. They are both in the bible because they are both equally important, they aren't there to choose between. Our salvation is dependant on us, Christ cannot save us if we do not want to be saved. And I do not appreaciate derogatory sarcasm. Maybe trolls would appreciate that, but I do not.

I am not trying to be sarcastic at all. Of course God says in many places that you must be "good" and not evil.

You miss my point entirely.

If you believe, then the good works will follow.......

one can be the nicest guy in the world and do 1000's of great things help the poor etc etc, and if he doesn't BELIEVE, he doesn't get into heaven.

Respectfully you and I disagree, no sarcasm was intended, sorry you took it that way.

I take the Word seriously and when it says that all that is required to believe or call upon his name, I take it verbatim.

The old testament was the same,

Joel 2:32 And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls.


Acts 2:20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
Acts 2:21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'


The Bible is consistent in my eyes and it does not put a whole bunch of conditions on Grace...its free...and there is only one condition one must meet. There is no amount of good you can do to get to heaven, but I will again state, that when one believes the fruits show that.

The Bible says no where that ALL THAT IS REQUIRED to be saved is to believe. And salvation is most definitely NOT free. Jesus paid for it with his blood, and even after that we have to surrender ourselves and our wills to Him in order to be saved. There is no instant salvation. You quoted "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved". I don't see where it says "And everyone who ONLY calls on the name of the Lord will be saved". No where does it state that this is the ONLY requirement. The authors of the bible expected us to look at everything that is stated as ways of salvation and put it all together as one. Good works do not automatically come after you have faith. They are equal and interchangeable. Just look at the Italian mafia. They are often extremely faithful and go to church and pray, yet they continue to turn around and do dispicable things. Look at Pat Robertson, he is one of the most faithful and respected Christians in America, but when he made that comment that we should assasinate President Hugo Chavez he revealed himself as a fool. The faithful Reverend Jessie Jackson took to commiting adultery. And the faithful founder of Protestantism, Martin Luther, hated Jews and black people. Faith isn't a magical cure-all. You have to prove your faith by being good and doing good things. You can "believe" that you can fly, but if you jump out of a skyscraper you will still fall to your death; but if you believe that you can fly, and do the work to build a airplane to help you, then you will soar. You said that "The Bible is consistent in my eyes and it does not put a whole bunch of conditions on Grace", but under your edsinger name it says "By Grace alone...". That seems contradictory. The bible also says that we have to give an account of our deeds in life before God on judgement day.

[edit on 29-8-2005 by AnonymousUserVII]

are we still discusing weather the vatican is evil or not. Apex thanked everybody for thier info a while back, right before my controversial quote that made the AnonymousUser feel like a tough guy. ever since it's a bible study. how can you try and take a writing so old so literally, dont u have any faith in yourself that there is a power that guides us all. we already believe the bible, (weather literaly or spiritually) churches are a wonderfull place to remember the bible and offer support to communities with donations from visitors that need spiritual uplifting. but why the vatican, why a place with so much wealth, global political pull, secrecy, and controversy should be held so high as an idol to those who believe christianity. they made themselve high priests not god, did god say he needed his people to have so much wealth.

www.historicist.com...

can someone debunk this so i can get some sleep, it buggin the hell out of me.

Originally posted by dazed and confused
are we still discusing weather the vatican is evil or not. Apex thanked everybody for thier info a while back, right before my controversial quote that made the AnonymousUser feel like a tough guy. ever since it's a bible study. how can you try and take a writing so old so literally, dont u have any faith in yourself that there is a power that guides us all. we already believe the bible, (weather literaly or spiritually) churches are a wonderfull place to remember the bible and offer support to communities with donations from visitors that need spiritual uplifting. but why the vatican, why a place with so much wealth, global political pull, secrecy, and controversy should be held so high as an idol to those who believe christianity. they made themselve high priests not god, did god say he needed his people to have so much wealth.

www.historicist.com...

can someone debunk this so i can get some sleep, it buggin the hell out of me.

dazed and confused, you are nothing but a troll. And no, I do not have any "faith in myself". I put all of my faith in God. And there is no secrecy at the Vatican. The Vatican has no "wealth". It is all donated money to keep up the Church. Priests, Bishops, Cardinals, and the Pope himself have very little if no earthly possesions. And the Vatican has just as much "political pull" as any other major world religion. When your a major world religion you get "policitcal pull" there is no way around it. And the Vatican is not an "idol" that Catholics worship. I don't know how many times I have to say this to Catholic bashers, WE DO NOT WORSHIP ANYONE OR ANYTHING BUT GOD THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT.

I do not mind this becoming a discussion about belief/actsone should make etc. but it would be good if it did not seem you were having such a discussion that seems to be becoming an argument. I am glad i managed to spark off a thread that has attracted so much attention.

Originally posted by AnonymousUserVII

Originally posted by dazed and confused
are we still discusing weather the vatican is evil or not. Apex thanked everybody for thier info a while back, right before my controversial quote that made the AnonymousUser feel like a tough guy. ever since it's a bible study. how can you try and take a writing so old so literally, dont u have any faith in yourself that there is a power that guides us all. we already believe the bible, (weather literaly or spiritually) churches are a wonderfull place to remember the bible and offer support to communities with donations from visitors that need spiritual uplifting. but why the vatican, why a place with so much wealth, global political pull, secrecy, and controversy should be held so high as an idol to those who believe christianity. they made themselve high priests not god, did god say he needed his people to have so much wealth.

www.historicist.com...

can someone debunk this so i can get some sleep, it buggin the hell out of me.

dazed and confused, you are nothing but a troll. And no, I do not have any "faith in myself". I put all of my faith in God. And there is no secrecy at the Vatican. The Vatican has no "wealth". It is all donated money to keep up the Church. Priests, Bishops, Cardinals, and the Pope himself have very little if no earthly possesions. And the Vatican has just as much "political pull" as any other major world religion. When your a major world religion you get "policitcal pull" there is no way around it. And the Vatican is not an "idol" that Catholics worship. I don't know how many times I have to say this to Catholic bashers, WE DO NOT WORSHIP ANYONE OR ANYTHING BUT GOD THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT.

A tree is known by its' fruits, though they try to hide the fruits.

The Crusades didn't come in peace, they killed everyone around the sites claimed. The Inquisition used horrific tortures & burned people at the stake.

The Bogomil religion was exterminated in the Balkans. The Cathar religions' last stand was at a fortress in the French Pyrennes, that is still there in ruins. Millions were killed over hundreds of years in many countries. The killing went on after the official Inquisition had stopped, in Russia.

900,000 Protestant reformationists were killed.
www.reformation.org

The Jesuits have been kicked out of the Church before, but they're back.
www.vaticanassassins.org

The allegedly murdered Vatican attache/excorcist Father Malachi Martin exposed a masonic order within the Jesuits in his book "The Keys of His Blood"-page 472, & in an interview with artbell.com he exposed the initiation ritual murders. It's believed he was pushed to his death.

Investigation of Knights of Columbus can turn up a lot of suspicious influence, AND the Jesuits, AND Opus Dei & Demolay.

I was raised Catholic, but don't agree with changing the sabbath day to sunday, and changing the name of Yeshua (Jesus), or with ritualism & statues (Isaiah 1:13-14), or the Inquisition.

The book "Dead Sea Scrolls Deception" by Baigent/Leigh; Summit Books, identifies in the chapter titled: The Inquisition Today, (now pope) Ratzinger as the head of the "Inquisition" keeping scrolls from the public view, with the Vatican Congregation for Doctrine of the Faith.

Google up "Black Pope" about the alleged head of the freemasons, the other Catholic pope, Hans von Klovenbach, or Peter Hans von Klovenbach.

www.ralphepperson.com
www.williamcooper.com
freemasonrywatch.org

War crimes are free of charge in this NWO under the masonic UN flag (with 33 divisions), & UN conference tables forming the masonic symbol center, a "G".

Rothschild founded B'nai B'rith. Another tentacle of the octopuss.

Bible predicts mainstream religion being false, indirectly, in John 16:2-3, 1 John 2:18-19, 2 Timothy 3:12.

Churches sign an IRS agreement to remain non-political, in return for tax-exempt status. Without that, you don't legally have a church. That means, no opposing wars, depleted uranium, corruption, candidates, or running for office, or leading protests, or reform movements.

In short, they've agreed to be figuratively neutered, & serve mammon (money) instead of God.

The cover up of molestations by priests went high up the chain of command. Symptom of corruption. Many church officials enjoy diplomatic immunity from prosecution, bishops up. That means customs searches don't apply to them either.

It's the perfect legitimate front for criminal activity. Who was the high ranking Church official that was assassinated in Mexico by a drug cartel?

Don't be stupidly gullible, corruption has had centuries to consolidate its' grip on the church. An editorial in the Seattle Times a decade ago stated that the Vatican put up 1 billion dollars to arrange the breakup of the former Yugoslavia atrocities of depopulation of moslems there.

I know there are good people in the Church, but they stay at low rank.

Originally posted by James J Dierbeck
A tree is known by its' fruits, though they try to hide the fruits.

The Crusades didn't come in peace, they killed everyone around the sites claimed.
In short, they've agreed to be figuratively neutered, & serve mammon (money) instead of God.
The cover up of molestations by priests went high up the chain of command. Symptom of corruption. Many church officials enjoy diplomatic immunity from prosecution, bishops up. That means customs searches don't apply to them either.
It's the perfect legitimate front for criminal activity. Who was the high ranking Church official that was assassinated in Mexico by a drug cartel?

Don't be stupidly gullible, corruption has had centuries to consolidate its' grip on the church. An editorial in the Seattle Times a decade ago stated that the Vatican put up 1 billion dollars to arrange the breakup of the former Yugoslavia atrocities of depopulation of moslems there.

Thanks... you have given me a lot to think about. I had never thought about those sorts of things. It was in things like the Da vinci code, but that is fiction, rather than fact.
You said there are good people in the church with low rank, well maybe they get corrup[ted by power at higher ranks.

Originally posted by AnonymousUserVII
Good God the Vatican is NOT evil!

Yes it is. Very much so.

If anyone is evil it is the Protestant church. The Protestants all offer an instant salvation as if it is just that easy. Accepting Jesus Christ as your savior won't do, a Christian has to do more. You have to accept Jesus Christ as your savior, have complete faith in Him and surrender your will to Him, and you have to live a moral life of good deeds and love of one another in peace.

Obviously you misunderstand the Gospel. When you accept Jesus as your Saviour, it FOLLOWS that you surrender to Him--and that is by faith. Good works will NOT get you into heaven! Faith in Christ WILL. Faith PRODUCES the good deeds--that's called bearing fruit.

I am so tired of having to listen to Catholic bashers my entire life, so forgive me if I sound a bit angry.

What do you think of the Vatican Ratlines? As in rushing the Nazis out of Europe to protect them?

The Catholic church is corrupt through and through.

Even putting aside for a moment the kind of "esoteric evil" that gets described here at ATS, there is plenty of the old-fashioned, garden-variety evil in the Vatican to go around.

The Church's subjugation of women, it's persecution of gays, hiding and protecting pedophile priests, persecuting priests who dare to merely discuss certain issues such as birth control (see the firing of the editor of the Jesuit magazine "America" earlier this year) and general support of the Church for the most repressive policies of American neo-con politics are all certainly evil enough to allow us to brand the Vatican as a nexis of nastiness. Good church people who have worked for "liberation theology" for the last half-century are now being shut up and shut away.

I think it's fair to start from a viewpoint of there being a sizeable dose of evil in the Vatican.

Now, we can go on to the very fascinating esoteric discussion of all the hidden evil therein.

Catholics, The Pope and Catholicism as a whole are not evil.

The Vatican and the power structure it represents most certainly is.

Be clear that the power structure has nothing to do with the spirituality of the faithful. It is just a big corrupt behemoth. Politics at its worst.

True evil. Whether it is capital "E" evil or just everyday run of the mill evil I think is up for debate.

Contrary to what they want you to believe, the Vatican is not the same thing as Catholicism. And it is certainly NOT The Church.


[edit on 13-10-2005 by Black Flag]

Originally posted by edsinger

But, Catholics are STILL Christians and many do not hold the office of
the 'pope' in high esteem anymore anyway.

Actually, to be a Roman Catholic - the largest Catholic church - is to 'be in communion with the Holy See'. This means that a Catholic maintains the legitimacy of the Pope as the successor of Peter, the first leader of the Christian Church. The schisms that erupted in the 1st century or so of Christianity focus largely around this idea. The Eastern Orthodox and Russian Orthodox church do not adhere to the supremacy of the Pope and therefore have been long considered to be distaff branches. Others, like the Melkite Catholic Church, are now in communion with the Holy See. Over the past couple of decades, there has been a reapproachment of Catholic and Protestant churches entering a more collegial relationship with the Roman church.

The selling of indulgences and other practices of the Church was certainly odious and no doubt sinful. The Protestant revolution was indeed fuelled by widespread revulsion of these practices. It also was a response of growing nationalistic identification of many of the early Protestant elites - King Henry did not start the Church of England because of his troublesome marriages; he severed ties with the church over land. The church also vigorously launched its own reform movement - the Counter Reformation.
www.bartleby.com... - this is the Columbia Encyclopedia entry; should be objective enough.

The Church is a human institution, and - like all such - is prone to error. The church has made great strides in correcting its errors large and small. Pope John Paul II spent a great deal of his Papacy mending fences and making amends. The scandals of the American church are upsetting and unsettling in the extreme, but the Church is working on this as well.

www.csmonitor.com... is an article in the Christian Science Monitor that discusses that the Church - especially the American church - is well ahead of other organizations in cleaning its house.

If you want to see some real hypocritical evil at work, take a look at the Televangelists. These guys make me sick, preying on the old, the suceptible, and the lonely. I have seen elderly people who have signed over Social Security checks, pensions, and other assets to these sanctimonious vultures. Take a look at Fundamentalist Muslims. How a group of people can take a beautiful religious work like the Koran and twist it into something so vile is beyond me.

As to the Roman Catholic Church being a player in the NWO, I really don't see it. It's a 2000 year old organization that has a following that is about 1/6 of the world's population. I don't think the church NEEDS the NWO.

I believe there was a comment somewhere in this thread about the European Union as making progress in some apopolyptic reference to unifying the world under one rule for the AntiChrist. If this is true, thank God... by the time the EU can get it's act together, the sun will have burned out a week or so earlier. They can't even get Western Europe agreeing, let alone the world.

Thanks for your indulgence, people... (no pun intended).

Good Day!

On the issue of Illuminati is in cahoots with the Vatican is a reality.
Illuminati historically was founded by Ignatius de Loyola (the founder of the Jesuits). Adam Weishupt was only a front. Illuminati was and is a branch of the Jesuits whose primary goal was to control business and economics throughout the World for the Vatican. Historically triggering the 1932 American Depression and they can do it again. The famous artists of the Vatican Michealangelo and Da Vinci are members of the Illuminati. The evidence of this are their works in Catholic churches and cathedrals in Rome full of illuminati art (ex. Symmetrical Pyramids inside the church). This was according to the book "Angels and Demons" by Dan Brown who also wrote the Da Vinci code who i studied as completely false or hoax. This was just promoted to decieve people in believing that the final antichrist is a descendant of Jesus. The Catholic believes that they are the fulfillment of the Four Horsemen in Revelations. This is true. The black horse whose rider holds a balance symbolizes the Jesuits who controls trade. While the pope is the white horse "The enemy of Christ". Feel free to reply...

3ofspades

Originally posted by vuoto
... there is plenty of the old-fashioned, garden-variety evil in the Vatican to go around.

The Church's subjugation of women, it's persecution of gays, hiding and protecting pedophile priests, persecuting priests who dare to merely discuss certain issues such as birth control (see the firing of the editor of the Jesuit magazine "America" earlier this year) and general support of the Church for the most repressive policies of American neo-con politics are all certainly evil enough to allow us to brand the Vatican as a nexis of nastiness. Good church people who have worked for "liberation theology" for the last half-century are now being shut up and shut away.

I think it's fair to start from a viewpoint of there being a sizeable dose of evil in the Vatican.

I'm not a Catholic myself; but the statements above are pure bigotry.

Every organisation is entitled to define itself by what it is, and by what it is not. To demonise an organisation of "subjugation of women, it's persecution of gays, ... persecuting priests who dare to merely discuss certain issues such as birth control" -- all these only amount to saying that the Vatican does not support the values of the liberal left. To call anyone who disagrees with you 'evil' is pure bigotry.

The other accusation "hiding and protecting pedophile priests" is unfair. Unlike those who attack it, the Vatican would be opposed to paedophilia, even if it were fashionable. That it was slow to believe its employees were guilty of this is understandable. That the whole organisation, of 1.3bn people, is guilty because a few people follow the mores of the liberal left, "if it feels good do it", is no different to Hitler blaming the whole Jewish race for what he himself confesses to be the actions of a few Jews towards him in Vienna when he was young. The accusation is the more disgusting since sodomitical organisations are openly calling for boys to be made available legally -- without protest, of course, from those screaming abuse at Catholics.

All of this sort of intolerance is terrifying. Why can't you treat others with a bit more respect?

All the best,

Roger Pearse