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Is the western media "playing" with China?

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posted on Aug, 19 2005 @ 12:41 PM
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I was huntin' around for more stuff on the China Mission reported on the 17th of August and it was announced in English on this site last Nov 8... here's the link
english.enorth.com.cn...

I guess CNN "news" (9 months delay) via Reuters isn't as new as one might like. LOL
www.cnn.com...

Why was this chosen to be released via this channel at this time? Hmmm.
This is old news - either they're incompetent journalists or... they wanted it in the news at this time to fulfill another purpose. You decide.

The new lunar orbiter (2 tons) is called get this "Chang'e-l" after the the "ancient legend about a fairy Chang'e who flies to the moon".

Gonna use a Long March 3 Booster... Hmmm that's quite a payload for that booster... guess they souped it up some more - with tech either Russky OEM or stolen from Boeing. Hit anywhere on this planet too.

OK... So the rover mission is 2 tons payload too with a descent module ... Composite and Ti construction with O/B "scientist"... that's still a VERY large Rover... think US lunar buggy.

Its' gonna drive around for like 3 years collecting rocks? No, no way, uh uh.
A rover weighing itself down with samples will not only tax resources at a great rate it will be dead weight - the enemy of vehicular efficiency.

No they're goin' there to do something more than rock hunt. They want something that is there that they don't have access to here and they're gonna bring whatever that is back to this planet. Whether it's info or physical it's important to them obviously. What can it be?

Lunar collected return payload transfer from the lunar rover to the return vehicle (about which the article says nada) is to put it mildly problematic for any robotic or tele-operated scenario. This ought to be interesting technology.

I congratulate them on the effort (announced last Nov 8th) but now I am even more interested and somewhat wary. The mission plan doesn't make enough sense as stated to return some rocks - that America says are largley unremarkable - rocks.

We don't have the whole story here - we have the "hole" story.
Thanks Reuters via CNN - Not.




posted on Aug, 19 2005 @ 12:53 PM
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Originally posted by highgroundsys0p

OK... So the rover mission is 2 tons payload too with a descent module ... Composite and Ti construction with O/B "scientist"... that's still a VERY large Rover... think US lunar buggy.

Its' gonna drive around for like 3 years collecting rocks? No, no way, uh uh.
A rover weighing itself down with samples will not only tax resources at a great rate it will be dead weight - the enemy of vehicular efficiency.


You seem to forget that the Moon's gravity is about 1/8th of the Earth's. So a rover the size of a dune buggy won't have much problems, even if its weighted down with rocks. Hardly dead weight.

Despite what has been said about the moon rocks in the past, there is a lot we can learn from them. A major problem we have to overcome when establishing a permanent settlement on the moon will be how to get the materials we need from natural sources. Scientists think we can gleen water and building materials from the soil and rocks there. Same thing for mars. So ... bringing back moon rocks is important.

Is it sooo far out that China actually wants to accomplish a scientific mission to the moon?

[edit on 19-8-2005 by noise]



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 06:57 AM
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Hi noise...
The lunar gravity is 0.166 times that of planet Earth (it actually fluctuates significantly) and...

I may be old but I don't forget much, especially what the subject of a post is when its' right in front of me like,"Is the western media "playing" with China?". You may wish to consider not forgetting to think and read before you embarrass yourself with exuberant ignorance.

Not that it is what my post was about but, I have been following all known space programs like an eagle in a dive for prey since I saw in person the launch of Alan Shepard's first American sub orbital "Friendship 7" Mercury flight in May 1961 (it rained in Cocoa Beach that afternoon).

Two tons is monster large for a rover - this thing'll be BIG with or without its' descent stage - The US lunar buggies were only 200 Kg (441 Lbs) on earth - link as proof below - read the payload stuff too - I dislike explaining things more than once. That's approx. 4 times more massive than the Apollo buggy. When I say "think US lunar rover" I mean it - think about it, find out about it - it's 441 lbs. Noise, you said,"a rover the size of a dune buggy ", I said,"think US lunar rover". - the chinese rover will be a ton or more. Big. Have you ever actually watched the US lunar rover footage sequences? Definitely VERY unstable - on all 3 missions with rovers; Apollo 14, 15 and 16.

ares.jsc.nasa.gov...

Now about the dead "weight" - let's say that the "Chang'e-l" mission rover is only 1 ton OK - that's still over twice the mass of the US rovers [it'll be significantly more massive probably 1.25 - 1.5 tons (Earth weight) but humour me on this point for the sake of simplicity]. Using the US rover "rock" payload figures (listed in the above Apollo document) of 490Kg (1080lbs) or 2.45 times greater than the the mass of the US rover unladen - on Earth we can conservatively estimate the mass of the Chinese rover as 1 ton plus 2.45 tons payload totalling 3+ tons. Remember mass equals weight only on earth or when accelerating at 9.8 meters per second per second (an Earth gravitational constant). This thing is heavy and has a high centre of gravity.

OK let's assume using even using obsolete 1970's US rover level technology that the 1 ton "Chang'e-l" mission rover could potentially carry 2.45 tons - perhaps more (no humans on board as in the US rover) on Earth... and using current 21st century Chinese tech the dead-mass payload could be even higher and the vehicle mass lighter. Fully loaded with return payload this thing is gonna handle like a limo on stilts or a monster truck on skinny tall tires - very tippy.

That's a top heavy load - moon gravity or not, the mass (not the weight) is identical to that of Earth and the only factor that matters - look it up or any elementary school age child will confirm this. Moving and controlling the mass of the rover requires the same energy on Earth as it does on the moon. Try this link to understand the difference between weight and mass and why in this case that difference matters so much:
mathforum.org...

Now the Chinese are telling us they're gonna drive around selecting and collecting rocks with robotic attachments for 3 years, driving either autonomically or tele-operated on delay with HIGH ground clearance [(large diameter wheels so as to NOT get hung up on the belly) and quite likely 2 times to 3 times the wheel diameter of the little US rover's measurement of 81.8CM or 32.2 inches] and a mass-high centre of gravity payload of as much as 2.45 tons of DEAD MASS and not be at risk of getting stuck or tipping over? Give your head a shake, then go drive a dune buggy or a 4wd with big diameter skins say 35 inchers with only 2 times its' unladen mass as payload over any rough uneven terrain and you'll see what I'm talking about. I'd suggest one of the TVA's more challenging trails some are quite beautiful and rugged (I liked the Buzzard's Roost Trail) - and wear a helmet and seat belt.

Nope it's not just rocks - they want something else - something that no one else has yet and they wish to bring whatever "it" is back to this planet - and maybe in significant quantity. NASA has 382Kg of moon rocks and they are all unremarkable except for the one "Genesis" rock of the primordial regolith that Harrison Schmidt found on Apollo 16 - read about it (it is only special because of its' extreme age (4.5 billion years) and not so much its' anorthosite mineral assay) - try any search engine using "Apollo Genesis Rock". The rocks are so very, very unremarkable as rocks go that NASA lends the samples out to other countries.

Noise, you said,"Despite what has been said about the moon rocks in the past, there is a lot we can learn from them" - maybe you can - I've actually read and understood the assay and analysis report sheets from Ames and Los Alamos National Labratory samples back in the early 1980's and I'm darn sure after 35 or so years of study that NASA has zip-zilch-zero to learn from them. They don't study them any more - all the possible tests have been done and many, many times over - they are rocks, no more and no less - no magic dust - no unobtainium locked away - just rocks. Wake up noise and get with the latter portion of the last half of the LAST century at least.

Please read and consider this - bringing back moon rocks is NOT important because we have lots already and have studied them to the point where THEY STARTED GIVING THEM AWAY IN 1973 - to scientific powerhouse superstar nations like HONDURAS and MALTA. Even a Texas MIDDLE SCHOOL now has one permanently. All Apollo astronauts and their familial survivors are given them too. Yup, oh yeah - tons of secrets hidden in them there lunar rocks - that's why we give them away - Shh! its' a matter of national security - see look - it's a piece of basalt just like Earth basalt except this basalt is hyper-extra-super-special because it's from the moon - NOT IMPORTANT.

You said,"A major problem we have to overcome when establishing a permanent settlement on the moon will be how to get the materials we need from natural sources." I never offered anything about this but I do not disagree - ANY problem on the moon is potentially a MAJOR life-threatening problem when considering a manned lunar presence. The Chinese are not sending a manned mission, nor do they plan to.

You also said,"Scientists think we can gleen water and building materials from the soil and rocks there. Same thing for mars.", well scientists don't just think that - they KNOW that. Then you opine,"So ... bringing back moon rocks is important." Your logic is flawed at best - a non-sequiturial argument (I'd argue that it follows that you may wish to look the term up).

I won't go into the lack of logic or efficiency in the Chinese mission timetable or the operational logistics profile as announced or the minimum three Earth launches or the return mission "holes" including Earth orbit rendevous and the required terrestrial hard-ground soft-landing of a significant mass. I'll do this later on the correct thread.

No, we aren't getting the whole story - just the "hole" story.

Next time please try and use facts; think a bit - do some research before you make me do it for you - I won't anymore. Please don't assume that everyone in this online community is stump stupid - it's so, well, American. I do love healthy debate - with folks using their critical thinking skills - not negativism and demeaning lazy slothfullness that is so prevalent in folks on many sites. Particlarly when replying, try and respond to what the post is about.

If you have any constructive positive views I'd be only too happy to listen to what you think - try to do it on the actual Chinese Moon Mission thread though (the moderators have it tough enough on ATS as it is).

I do really want to know what the Chinese are after. Helium 3 (which is thought to occur in relative abundance on the moon is deposited on the surface by solar winds and solar coronal mass ejections but is exceedingly rare and prized for physics application in fusion power research on Earth) or pehaps artifacts - evidence of something for some purpose or goal not yet disclosed?

You close by saying,"Is it sooo far out that China actually wants to accomplish a scientific mission to the moon?" - Uh, is there any other kind of mission to the moon other than SCIENTIFIC? Maybe MAGICAL? How about RELIGIOUS? LOL.

Now on to what I was actually posting about - to show how "out of wack" western media outlets like Reuters and CNN are, that is, reporting 9 month old Chinese stuff as current "news"... Read my post and the title - and read it again if you need to - the moon stuff is just incidental to the discovery of the story - Absolutely no comment from you on what the post was actually about I noticed.

I asked,"Why was this chosen to be released via this channel at this time? Hmmm. This is old news - either they're incompetent journalists or... they wanted it in the news at this time to fulfill another purpose. You decide." - If you may have any views on this subject that you'd wish to share I'd like to hear them.

Listen, Knoxville is a nice place to live - I used to fly our little Cessna 150 and later our DeHaviland Twin Otter into the island airport before your country became a police state - TVA was and still is one of my software clients. I'm sure it's still beautiful - I just don't go there by choice anymore - no American's ever gonna fingerprint me or Iris scan me or DNA profile me; I wouldn't even let a Canadian fingerprint me unless I committed a crime.

If you are truly interested there is another ATS thread about the Chinese Moon Mission - mostly just cheerleader type stuff congratulating the Chinese (9 months late) and whining about perceived NASA shortcomings but no real info or meaningful discussion so far. I remain hopeful of quality discussion.

Anyway thanx tho' and watch for news of the 2nd manned Shenzhou orbital launch in October - apparently the launch and some of the spacewalk will be televised in the West on tape delay according to CCTV.


[edit on 20-8-2005 by highgroundsys0p]



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 09:18 AM
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Ok man, its obvious that you took my post personally. I’m not out to make enemies with anyone and I certainly do not wish to make a fool of you.

I suppose I need to clarify the point I was really trying to make with my post.



Its' gonna drive around for like 3 years collecting rocks? No, no way, uh uh.
A rover weighing itself down with samples will not only tax resources at a great rate it will be dead weight - the enemy of vehicular efficiency.

No they're goin' there to do something more than rock hunt. They want something that is there that they don't have access to here and they're gonna bring whatever that is back to this planet. Whether it's info or physical it's important to them obviously. What can it be?


Now, given the fact that this board is absolutely run amok with conspiracy theory lunies … I thought you were reading a little too much into this mission’s motives. That’s why I responded with “Is it sooo far out that China actually wants to accomplish a scientific mission to the moon?” as apposed to some kind of secret NWO Alien agenda garbage. You did however, explain what motives you thought were influencing this misison in your second post.

All in all man, I apologize for making an unfair assumption about your ideas and I’ll forgive your childish remarks.

Cool?



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 11:04 AM
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The post that is this threads' source was not about the moon... it still isn't - it is about the missreporting of it as "news" story 9 months after the fact by American "news" sources - Under the ATS "Education & Media" heading - But you don't seem to want to address anything other than that which you feel is yours to dominate - go ahead - the noise you'll hear is that of one hand clapping. If you'd like to discuss the subject of the original post that'd would have been OK by me. Not now - like your broken or something. Childish remarks? Whatever, I speak truth. Bye Bye noise... I forgive YOU for being ill-informed and given to speaking before you think carefully... or even reading a darn subject line. May your God save you from yourself. You are quite done wasting my time. You are JAFO in the big picture with little to offer in the way of intellectual stimulation or knowlege let alone wisdom.




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