The End of Political Baiting and Sniping on ATS (was ALL MEMBERS READ)

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Soon, a new level of warning will be in place for ATS-only. When we see obvious derailment of the discussions of issues on ATS, a 2,000 point warn will be applied with a stern warning that the next such warn will result in immediate banning.

My wife is from Northern Lower Michigan, USA. ( If you look at a map and see both peninsulas, that makes sense.) In the autumn during hunting season, you see many bait piles in the forest. When you are hiking and see a tempting apple or carrot you might want to reach out and take one. You might get away with it, or you might be attacked by an angry hunter. Rightly so, perhaps, as you are stealing from him and putting your scent on his bait. How do you know which it will be? I learned that when in the woods you leave everything alone, especially if it seems "out of place".
I have been here a little over a year and I'm still learning that applies here, also. I have stumbled over a bait pile or two here at ATS. I have been reluctant to post at times when I wanted to because something seemed "out of place". Other times, I did respond, but withdrew before I was completely sucked into a quagmire.
It took me a long time to get 2000 points. I would hate to lose them because I shot off my mouth, ( Fingers). I see this as taking responsibility for what we say. If I slander somebody or take their things I will pay the consequences in court. Here, I think we are not to
steal (hi-jack ) threads . Start your own. And watch your mouth.
I welcome this improvement.
Here in America, we have Freedom of Speech. This, like all of our Freedoms, requires a Personal Responsibility. I like to think we have a personal responsibility here at ATS also.
Realistically, the only thing NEW is the enforcement. Below are portions of the T&C that I find pertinent.

from TERMS and CONDITIONS
2.) You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.
13.) You will not post messages that are clearly outside of the stated topic of any forums nor disrupt a forum by deliberately posting repeated irrelevant messages or copies of identical messages (also known as "flooding")...
17.) At all times, you remain solely responsible for anything found within your posts...

I have to say that the shadowed black band looks uber-cool, so that part's good at least.

This process of bringing the band out whenever the need arises seems like a good one. it's like running a flag at half-staff so as to remind everyone constantly that there is a problem. I think what's being said here is to just take more responsibility for our words. Let's not post with the primary goal of hurting or causing distress to another member, or with a desire to inflame their anger. I could improve, in this regard.

The biggest issue ATS has, IMO, in the pervasive anger which any forum like this is going to recieve. That's probably due in part to the fact that the topics here have no other outlet in normal life, so people's emotions are going to come through in their posts.

I've often wished there was a forum on ATS or a place where we could just "kiss-ass" all day and post nice things about the ATS people we like. I don't mean some huge structured place like BTS, I mean just a "Nice Comments About Others" forum on ATS.

There are so few ways on ATS to let other people know how much you respect them and their ideas. Far fewer than the # of ways or opportunities to differ with or criticise them. How can we change that?


[edit on 20-8-2005 by smallpeeps]

Originally posted by Springer
There is NOTHING in that statement that seeks to limit the content of political conversation only the intent of said political insertion.

and theres nothing to prevent a moderator from construing things a person might say as violating this new role, you guessing ones intent easily will cause problems, mods are never 100% correct or unbiased so how is giving them power of unilateral descretion of intent a good idea? your rule has no clear declaration here, we're supposed to trust no mod will abuse this power either on purpose or by having a bias and assuming intent based on it?

Originally posted by namehere

Originally posted by Springer
There is NOTHING in that statement that seeks to limit the content of political conversation only the intent of said political insertion.

and theres nothing to prevent a moderator from construing things a person might say as violating this new role, you guessing ones intent easily will cause problems, mods are never 100% correct or unbiased so how is giving them power of unilateral descretion of intent a good idea? your rule has no clear declaration here, we're supposed to trust no mod will abuse this power either on purpose or by having a bias and assuming intent based on it?

Actually, you're just supposed to get the point of this thread and let the checks and balances in place in the moderation of this site work its own problems out. I think the short story is that what they review and say "yeah that was a good moderation move" is what we'll have to live with. This isn't a democracy.

Yes, Springer, I too am glad that someone who has some clout around here finally said something that people will hopefully take seriously.

I don't think that ATS would be too much fun, though if everyone was too afraid to post what they honestly wanted to say or ask out of fear of being banned. Also, I see in some threads (none in particular come to mind at the moment) where a poster who has been around for a while and generally makes good posts and replies, suddenly gets a member who has not been here for too long, just jump all over the one who doesn't deserve it. Then, a bunch of others who hadn't even been writing in the thread before, suddenly are there, all ready to "YELL" at each other, until a few posts later, I don't even remember what the thread was originally about.

As a matter of fact, I was first going to thank you Springer, because often, well sometimes, I will start a thread, and maybe it takes off a little and is becomming a good conversation when suddenly a couple of people get stuck on one little part of the topic and get argueing back and forth over and over again about that one little piece, which is not the main point of the thread. People try to interject with the main conversation, only to be cut off again by the same two (I don't mean any same two all the time, just any particular two) who will sometimes start having it out to the extent of including links from other irrelevant threads, and forgetting that they aren't the only ones there, and that they have gotten so far off topic, that it's really annoying.

But, what happens, though, that I really don't(didn't now - past tense) know what to do, is that I would get so sick of the increasinly passionate and irrlevant argueing going on in a thread that I started with honesty and sincerety, that I finally write a post to the effect that I would appreciate it if people would have their opinions heard without bickering, etc..... something usually like that. But then, more often than not, when I make a post asking that people please communicate without bickering, that seems to be the end of my thread.

Anyway, didn't mean to get so carried away. I guess it bothered my more than I was aware of. Thanks again, Springer.

Oh, BTW, I'm not innocent. I was reminded that I have found myself getting a bit carried away from time to time with the "monster neo-cons", "murderous, criminal neo-cons", etc... I am reminded to watch myself about that.

go batty once in a while. I'm not after those folks at all...

I am after the REPETITIVE, EVERY DARN POST, Politcal HACKS who add NOTHING to the conversation and usually KILL the discussion with their diatribe.

Most of us can think of two or three user names this fits right off the bat. Here's the worst part, it's a grand total of less than TWENTY members who are causing 99% of the problem!

Originally posted by Springer
DO NOT fear posting what you really have to say or think or want to ask!

Springer...

amen...

i am glad to see these words in this thread...

Originally posted by Springer
not some political party line

Just wanted to preemptivly strike anyone going after this comment, because it struck me. This isn't to say that you're not allowed to hold views that coencide with a party line. If people weren't capable of coming up with that ideology, they never would have made it a party line. It's just repeating the talking points or zingers wihtout any information they're talking about. If you happen to agree with Rush Limbaugh or Al Franken on everything, but know why you believe those things, you're in the clear. IF you agree with Rush or Al on many things and figure their opinion is gospel truth and throw it out there while you're incapable of justifying it because you don't know anything about the issue except Al or Rush said it on their radio programs, you're going to have a problem here at ATS.

Actually, isn't it just a little bit more simple than that jj?

I guess you can believe everything Rush says as the gospel and act like you do here, but it's when you start acting like him here that you'll probably have problems.

For instance...

if there is a thread about a serial killer not getting the death penalty, and how that's causing a lot of angst in some people, and then you come along and say

"it's because the bleeding heart liberals were in control"

and that's pretty much what you say every time you discuss something negative in the world...

you've probably got a bit of a problem.

The same thing holds if your response is to blame every single negative situation on:

the jews, or
the Bush administration, or
the fundamentalist christians, or
Muslims
etc.

And if you don't understand why you have a problem...you've probably got more of a problem than a bit of one. I've come to realize that some people don't know they have a problem. They don't know they're myopic; they don't know they're obsessed. They don't know they blame EVERYTHING on the same "other side" over and over - whatever side that is.

If some people could get introspective long enough to count the number of societal ills they blame on the same set of people I truly believe they would realize something is askew in their thinking.

[edit on 8-20-2005 by Valhall]

Originally posted by namehere
your rule has no clear declaration here

It's been made clear in this thread several times.

An interesting side note... members expressing confusion (both in private u2u and public comment) tend to be those engaged in the political sniping we're attempting to end.

Deny ignorance folks. Turn off the pundits, look at the real issues, and think for yourselves.

I just wanted to add my praises for this much needed move.

Many times a thread that I would like to participate in gets derailed by a few "obnoxiously repetitive insertion" and I choose to stay away from the thread altogether, because it usually just deteriorates from there.

So, thank you, good work, good job and

The new warning for political trolling is now functional.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
The new warning for political trolling is now functional.

I'm assuming that also pertains to other sorts of trolling and hijacking outside of politics...

Cool all we need to do is be careful about what we say and how we say it.

This agressive enforcement of critical thinking is long overdue.

Partisanship is a weak-minded refuge from the sticky problems of the real world. It's much easier to be told what to think than to think for yourself, but the end product of the latter is worthless from a discussion standpoint.

When every other thread turns into an off-topic Bush bash, or an anti-tulipwalker tirade, that does NOTHING for the stated goal of the site, to deny ignorance. It does illustrate the problem nicely, but frankly, I've seen enough illustration of this particular problem to last a lifetime. Enough of looking at the problem, time to look at some solutions.

The parties were set in opposition to one another so that the people might be set in the same fashion. Brought low by constant bickering, it becomes impossible for meaningful discourse. The sides remain rigid and controllable, while the individuals find no comfort anywhere. The state can relax when its people are locked down like this.

I applaud the staff for their effort in this matter. I hope they're prepared for the Herculean task they've set for themselves.

Punt a pundit! Save a culture today!

Care And Care Alike

Originally posted by slymattb
Cool all we need to do is be careful about what we say and how we say it.

Heck you don't even need to be all that careful.

The vast, overwhelming majority of ATS members have never violated this policy, and simply by virtue of being thoughtful, intelligent people, never will.

Those who engage in mudslinging, baiting and harassment of other members have always done so in violation of the T&C.

The only thing that's really new is that the staff are absolutely fed up with a small number of members trashing the forums and denying their legitimate use to others by doing so.

That's why they are taking firm and necessary steps to put an end to it.

Surgical Strike

The senior staff, the moderators and the Council staff are all closely monitoring this process, and all complaints regarding this policy are being conscientiously considered.

No one with a legitimate complaint will be brushed off.

NOTE: Complaining about the enforcement of the AboveTopSecret.com Terms And Conditions Of Use is NOT a legitimate complaint.

The staff does care very much about the well-being of ATS and its membership. The ATS staff is fair and reasonable, if not perfect, and is doing what needs to be done to ensure that ATS remains a website worth visiting.

People who come here to study and share opinions on the topics ATS covers are cheerfully welcomed and need never fear being unfairly punished by the staff.

People who come here to push an agenda, attack other members or play head games with them, on the other hand, are on notice that this sort of deliberate misconduct will not be tolerated.

Rule of thumb: If you're not disrespecting your fellow members or being a jackass, you're on solid ground.

For most members, this comes naturally.

Others need a little help with the concept now and then, and the ATS staff has made it clear that they are able and willing to do that.

A Word Of Advice For My Fellow Drama Queens

For those who think sanctimonious chest beating and mealy-mouthed carping about “free speech” are going to change anyone's mind about this, I have some advice: save your breath.



We're not that stupid.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
The parties were set in opposition to one another so that the people might be set in the same fashion. Brought low by constant bickering, it becomes impossible for meaningful discourse. The sides remain rigid and controllable, while the individuals find no comfort anywhere. The state can relax when its people are locked down like this.

Well said WyrdeOne! I really like this new rule, I just cant stand it when someone comes in and tries to use technics to socially embariss someone into backing down, or turning the thread into left/right good/evil broad argument blood bath.

I applaud the ATS staff for there efforts to make this a more comfortable place to state your opinion and maybe open some minds up to the gargantuan problems we are facing today.

The fight for freedom is on, and taking the puppetmasters role they want you to play is crazy. It is not a partisan problem, it is a massive control issue that if we do not stop being divided on we will lose.

Finally! Mods at work!

I have seen the beginnings of a trend that needs to STOP NOW, certain members (all the ones I've seen are those who have been warned for baiting, what does THAT tell you?) posting accusations of "baiting" in threads. Additionally, some are asking the question "Is that/are you baiting me?" in threads.

This needs to STOP NOW...

If you truly think someone is "baiting you" or someone else use the Gripe Form Button. The Moderators will handle it.

DO NOT post these questions/comments in a thread. That's hi-jacking a thread just the same as the other "methods" mentioned in the original post here.

Consider this fair warning that this behavior isn't going to fly. I personally think it's a SHAME I have to put a post like this up.

Springer...

For Those Just Tuning In

The staff is not in a joking mood.

The ban hammer is swinging. It would be wise not to act like a nail.

My advice as a Councilor to my fellow members is to carefully weigh the pros and cons of pushing your luck with the staff right now.

If your goal is to discuss topics in a reasonably civil manner, take heart that things are already starting to get better. The mods are doing their best to help you.

If your goal is to commit membership-suicide-by-mod, take heart that you couldn't ask for a better opportunity. The mods will do their best to help you.

Please, be mindful of your path.








[edit on 8/21/2005 by Majic]