I am confused about the mason's.

There are many Islamic Freemasons out there, just as there are many Jewish brethren. This is simply reflective of the demographics of the real world, and in line with Freemasonry's theistic requirements.

The Masonic lodge is largely a community. Do you "allow" Muslims, Jews and their respective beliefs to exist in YOUR community?

If so, then you are applying double standards. If not, then I shudder at your politics.

Can you not see how ludicrous it is to arbitrate people's faiths? (Inquisition, anyone?)

Finally, you insinuate that Freemasonry does not make provision for Christ. As I (and others) have already said, Christian Freemasons aren't hindered from practicing their faith any more than Jews or Muslims. You seem to ignore this because it is convenient to your argument that Freemasonry is somehow in competition with your own religion. It is not.

May I respectfully ask what you read or heard to arrive at this opinion? Was it a book about cults, or possibly some advice from a senior church member/mentor?

TxSecret... I'm confused... how is eating the flesh NOT cannabilism? How is drinking the blood NOT vampirism?

Also..why did you ignore my main point? That getting into heaven requires the following of strict guidelines of dictatorship otherwise you are threatened with eternal damnation?

Also, you keep quoting the bible... for goodness sake. There are so many bibles out there, all with its own interpretation of what they THINK is written in the original languages... I recall one bible refferring to the investing in the stock exchange, where as another means to harvest the land.... which one will you quote?

Quoting scriptures to prove your point is...pointless. The intended meaning of versus simply cannot be put into words, especially words of another translation, translated from a previous translation. Did you not learn anything from the game 'Chinese Whispers'?

Now which do you do? Do you sprinkle yourself with water for baptism or do you fully submerge under water? Do you speak in tongues, or do you believe it was for the people of those days? Do you drink wine or do you drink grapejuice for the representation of drinking Jesus's blood? All really depending on which version of the bible you devote your life to.

Here is a quote for you... at the end of revelations it says "Do not add or remove any part of gods word" blah blah blah..... Yet there are some religions out there that have added books. There are also books out there that are not INCLUDED in the bible. This points out one simple thing. That the bible was written by and put together by man, man who ultimately decided what should and shouldn't be included in 'gods word'.

Let people decide for themselves what they want to do with their own lives, its THEIR choice, and its NOT upto you to convince them otherwise, stop being lucifer and forcing the light onto everyone, you know thats who you don't want to be, so why keep doing it.
----

Thanks to the people who have pointed out about Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong. I did actually do some research before this posting, and that Neil Armstrongs father was a Mason???

Hi TxSecret

Thanks for your rely. I think we're both in agreement that good works don't buy salvation. There may be people out there, freemasons and non-masons, who might believe that to be the case, but that is a matter for them, IMO. I'd like to focus instead on the 'yoked with unbelievers' accusation. This is where I think your scriptural quotes are unnecessary - not because I don't believe them to be true ( I do) but I don't believe them to apply in this case.

Originally posted by TxSecret
Any kind of organization that has 'spritual sway' in the lives of others needs to have Christ in the center of it.

I've already outlined that freemasonry, in itself, has no spiritual sway. It is a template upon which one can lay out, and practice, ones one personal beliefs. For a Christian particularly it reinforces and compliments the lessons taught to us by Christ, rather than contradicts or offers an alternative. There is no masonic dogma - it simply teaches, time and time again, 'go back to your faith, that is where the lessons of truth can be found'

Freemasonry is NOT Christ centered and never will be.

Like many other secular organizations such as the Boy Scouts, Rotary, WI, almost all corporations, clubs and societies religion does not enter into the equation. As I mentioned before, there is no religious discussion at lodge. I would not necessarily know the religion of my masonic brethren because it is of no consequence in a masonic context.

If Freemasonry was like say, the Red Cross or some other 'purely charitable' organization I probably wouldn't bat a second eye at them. (Even though I don't trust many of them either) Freemasonry however is a spritual 'free for all' where anything goes. Just follow ANY old religion, as long as you are *bettering* your self.

Freemasonry doesn't make this distinction. You and I might believe that muslim freemasons, just like muslim non-masons, are spiritually wasting their time. But a lodge is where I can mix with people of all faiths and spiritual journeys without fear of their judgement of me and vice versa. If, during an opening prayer in the lodge I happen to be standing next to a muslim, I will strongly suspect that he is praying to a different God in his mind. That is of no concern to me as I pray to the Lord Jesus Christ. In the same way that I will sit at a table and say Grace with a non-Christian.

Like Amos 3:3 said:

Can two walk together, except they be agreed? (In the spirit)


No.. they can't.

I'm concerned that you are putting forward an argument for not mixing with those of different beliefs. There is much to learn from those who hold different opinions to our own. As Roark said, I hope you aren't proposing exclusive communities, where ne'er the twain shall meet.

To me it's simple.. Just lay your life down to Christ and ONLY him.
Don't be intimately involved with any organization that has spritual sway on other people and is -not- Christ centered.

This is the crux of my problem Trinity

I believe you are overestimating the spiritual element of freemasonry itself. The secondary effect of freemasonry is a closer personal introspection, but there is no communal spiritual activity, rather more social in fact. That's not to say lodge meetings cannot be a deeply spiritual experience, but that experience is drawn from the pre-existing faith of the member rather than any 'masonic' teaching.

You call yourself a Christian but yet you are 'intimately' attached to Freemasonry which promotes every OTHER spiritual belief out there.

I don't know how to explain this to you any other way. Take a quote instead from the website of the United Grand Lodge of England, as authoritative a source as you're ever likely to get.

external source: UGLE
Freemasonry and Religion

Introduction
The following information is intended to deal with a topic mentioned in the leaflet 'What is Freemasonry'.

It explains the United Grand Lodge of England's view of the relationship between Freemasonry and religion.

Basic Statement
Freemasonry is not a religion, nor is it a substitute for religion. It demands of its members a belief in a Supreme Being but provides no system of faith of its own.

Freemasonry is open to men of all religious faiths. The discussion of religion at its meetings is forbidden.

The Supreme Being
The names used for the Supreme Being enable men of different faiths to join in prayer (to God as each sees Him) without the terms of the prayer causing dissention among them.

There is no separate Masonic God; a Freemason's God remains the God of the religion he professes.

Freemasons meet in common respect for the Supreme Being, but He remains Supreme in their individual religions, and it is no part of Freemasonry to attempt to join religions together. There is therefore no composite Masonic God.

Volume of the Sacred Law
The Bible, referred to by Freemasons as the Volume of the Sacred Law, is always open at every Masonic meeting.

The Obligation of Freemasonry
The Obligations taken by Freemasons are sworn on or involve the Volume of the Sacred Law, or the book held sacred by those concerned. They are undertakings to help keep secret a Freemason's means of recognition, and to follow the principles of Freemasonry.

The physical penalties, which are purely symbolic, do not form part of an Obligation. The commitment to follow the principles of Freemasonry is, however, deep.

Freemasonry Compared with Religion
Freemasonry lacks the basic elements of religion.

a) it has no theological doctrine, and by forbidding religious discussion at its meetings will not allow a Masonic theological doctrine to develop.
b) It offers no sacraments.
c) It does not claim to lead to salvation by works, by secret knowledge or by any other means. The secrets of Freemasonry are concerned with modes of recognition and not with salvation.

Freemasonry Supports Religion
Freemasonry is far from indifferent to religion. Without interfering in religious practice it expects each member to follow his own faith, and to place above all other duties his duty to God, by whatever name He is known. Its moral teachings are acceptable to all religions.

Freemasonry is thus a supporter of religion.

The nub of your complait seems to be encapsulated thus:

You call yourself a Christian yet you help further an organization that DOES NOT promote Christianity and is in fact 'helping' other people down this insidiously slippery slope to loosing their soul. You *can't*, in the name of Christ, help further the Kingdon of God and at the same time futher this 'spritual free for all' called Freemasonry at the same time.

Freemasonry is not concerned with salvation, or with promoting one religion over another.

I'm sorry Trinity, if you support Freemasonry, you are supporting EVERY other belief 'structure' that is attached to 'it'.

The depths of your misunderstanding of the organization become increasingly apparent. There are no belief structures attached to freemasonry

Please don't try and tell me that you are not leading people away from Christ because even though you may feel that you are not doing this in your immediate 'circle' you are attached to an organization that IS indeed doing just that.

No, it isn't. Until you understand the neutral role of freemasonry in spiritual matters I fear we will continue to go round in circles.

I wish I knew all the statistics but I wonder how many Freemasons are 'Christians' and how many are OTHER doctrines and beliefs.

I would guess that over 90% of freemasons are (nominally) Christian in my country and this would rise to more like 99% in the US.

You seem to believe that I spend all my time in lodge. I spend far more time at Church or doing christian-related activities, including witnessing. I don't witness at work, to people who don't want to be witnessed to, or in Lodge. I don't believe the world was created in 7 days, that the bush neccesarily actually burned, and that I need to be circumcised to enter heaven. Neither do I believe that membership of a secular organization that moralizes over stonemasons tools and re-enacts morality plays based on the Old Testament, precludes me from eternal life. I have found nothing the Bible that tells me so, and heard nothing from yourself or anti-masonic evangelists that tell me so.

God bless

[edit on 6-3-2006 by Trinityman]

TxSecret

Where do you draw your information from about Masonry? I think that your opinion of us are unleveled.
I guess it is only reasonable that in this world opposites must exist. Religion has it's atheist; and Masonry has it's anti masons. I only hope that one day your mind opens and you see that we are not corrupt. And we are not trying to corrupt anyone else. No Mason ask a man to come to Freemason, that man comes on his own free will. And if he is not pleased, he too can leave on his own free will. I'm not saying that we Masons are perfect. But to be honest, I don't know one person who is. I can only speak for myself and what I've seen. I have yet to see or read anything (besides the anti masons articles) that says that Freemason is evil. I never worshipped anything except for the God I choose too. Freemasonry doesn’t tell me who to worship. I know that you don’t understand because you are not a Mason. Sometimes it’s difficult to understand things looking from the outside. Man fears what he don't understand...

I'm glad that we both can respectfully disagree with one another.


[edit on 6-3-2006 by ac707]

here a very interesting clip i find about Masons.

video.google.com...

Originally posted by Fizzgig

here a very interesting clip i find about Masons.

video.google.com...

Does Google let just anyone post videos?

They did not have enough fuel or air to perform an hour-long Freemasonic ritual on the fauquing moon.

If Buzz Aldrin was a 32nd degree Scottish Rite freemason, that should not be a big deal. Once you earn the Master Mason degree after memorizing all that stuff, you can sit through a two-day session and receive the 4th through 32nd degrees all back-to-back. No memorization work necessary. No years of "loyal service." Just sittin' and watchin'.

If the first astronauts to the moon planted a Freemasonic flag on it, then moder-day telescopes could spot it.

If Neil Armstrong brought his Freemason apron to the moon, he did it just to brag to his lodge buddies.

They did not say "the Eagle has landed" because of the Scottish Rite logo. The lunar lander was named the Eagle.

Albert Pike was not a clansman.

Apollo is not an alternative name for the Devil. Apollo was the Sun-God of both the Greek and Roman theologies. The original texts of the New Testament do not refer to the Devil as Apollyon - I have a copy of the New Testament in Greek / Latin-Vulgate / Italian, and none of them refer to Apollo.

If the NASA space program manager performed a SECRET masonic ritual with the Apollo crew, and they all swore secrecy under penalty of death, then how would anybody know?

Columbia is not an occult word. It comes from the latin "dove."

Charles Taze Russel and following Jehovah's Witnesses have predicted the end of the world incorrectly numerous times. So have the Catholics, Seventh-Day Adventists, Baptists, Conspiracy Theorists, etc etc etc.

If Jack Parsons had actually summoned demons and spirits, then why did he need to bother with science?

Aleister Crowley, though I disagree with what he does, was not actually in any way, and his talkings about being "the Beast" were mainly to piss off the cultural norm.

Joules Verne is not on any list as a Grand Master of the Priory de Sion. Here are the alleged Grand Masters around his time.

Victor Hugo (1844-1885)
Claude Debussy (1885-1918)
Jean Cocteau (1918-1963)
Francois Ducaud-Bourget (1963-1981)
Pierre Plantard (1981-1984)

The OTO does not claim origin from the Bavarian Illuminati. I've read their rituals.

Jack Parsons is sure taking his time as the Anti-Christ... October of 1914... Too bad he died.

Sorry to rag on the video so much. I'm trying to kill the message, not the messenger.

This is all nice but what is the purpose of freemasonry btw? I think it is obvious that any organization has objectives and a purpose to define itself by so what are they for freemasons?

If it interests anyone my great, great, great, great grandfather wsa the Grand Master(?) (Leader) of the Grand High Lodge of England that any years ago. Does that mean i can become a mason? It's quite far back, and would mean that my entire family tree could if so.

Originally posted by Periphery
If it interests anyone my great, great, great, great grandfather wsa the Grand Master(?) (Leader) of the Grand High Lodge of England that any years ago. Does that mean i can become a mason? It's quite far back, and would mean that my entire family tree could if so.

I'm no mason dude but sounds like you are one of the chosen ones to me... your bloodline makes your a superstar in the Mason world apparently. Way to go... when you join let us know what really happens in there and why.

Originally posted by Periphery
If it interests anyone my great, great, great, great grandfather wsa the Grand Master(?) (Leader) of the Grand High Lodge of England that any years ago. Does that mean i can become a mason? It's quite far back, and would mean that my entire family tree could if so.

Its Grand Master, and its United Grand Lodge of England (assuming we're talking about the masons here).

You are closely related to royalty, as all the Grand Masters have had a royal lineage.

Let us know who this ancestor is and I'll tell you some more about him.

PS - you can become a mason with or without such ancestry.

I already have information on him due to a relative working on a family tree thanks, but i am hesitant about posting here since it is my family tree site, and i still have the same surname (Bit paranoid). It's interesting, thanks for the info.

No problem, although all of the Grand Masters were royals, and I've never heard of a shy member of the royal family before!!!

Almost all of the information about the genealogy of the Royals is in the public domain, so your line will be well documented and public knowledge anyway.

If you're not related to royalty you might want to consider the option that your ancestor was the Grand Master of a different organization. You can always U2U me if you're not comfortable with posting private information to the Forum.

Yeah having done a bit of research, shows I was wrong, I got the wrong title from the web, the informtaion was from an obituary on a relatives site sorry about that, i should have copied the info for here, oh well. I don't really have a desire to be a mason, i was just interested. **exits the room embarrassed**

hey periphery, check your U2U.