I am confused about the mason's., page 7

Hi TxSecret

Thanks for your rely. I think we're both in agreement that good works don't buy salvation. There may be people out there, freemasons and non-masons, who might believe that to be the case, but that is a matter for them, IMO. I'd like to focus instead on the 'yoked with unbelievers' accusation. This is where I think your scriptural quotes are unnecessary - not because I don't believe them to be true ( I do) but I don't believe them to apply in this case.

Originally posted by TxSecret
Any kind of organization that has 'spritual sway' in the lives of others needs to have Christ in the center of it.

I've already outlined that freemasonry, in itself, has no spiritual sway. It is a template upon which one can lay out, and practice, ones one personal beliefs. For a Christian particularly it reinforces and compliments the lessons taught to us by Christ, rather than contradicts or offers an alternative. There is no masonic dogma - it simply teaches, time and time again, 'go back to your faith, that is where the lessons of truth can be found'

Freemasonry is NOT Christ centered and never will be.

Like many other secular organizations such as the Boy Scouts, Rotary, WI, almost all corporations, clubs and societies religion does not enter into the equation. As I mentioned before, there is no religious discussion at lodge. I would not necessarily know the religion of my masonic brethren because it is of no consequence in a masonic context.

If Freemasonry was like say, the Red Cross or some other 'purely charitable' organization I probably wouldn't bat a second eye at them. (Even though I don't trust many of them either) Freemasonry however is a spritual 'free for all' where anything goes. Just follow ANY old religion, as long as you are *bettering* your self.

Freemasonry doesn't make this distinction. You and I might believe that muslim freemasons, just like muslim non-masons, are spiritually wasting their time. But a lodge is where I can mix with people of all faiths and spiritual journeys without fear of their judgement of me and vice versa. If, during an opening prayer in the lodge I happen to be standing next to a muslim, I will strongly suspect that he is praying to a different God in his mind. That is of no concern to me as I pray to the Lord Jesus Christ. In the same way that I will sit at a table and say Grace with a non-Christian.

Like Amos 3:3 said:

Can two walk together, except they be agreed? (In the spirit)

No.. they can't.

I'm concerned that you are putting forward an argument for not mixing with those of different beliefs. There is much to learn from those who hold different opinions to our own. As Roark said, I hope you aren't proposing exclusive communities, where ne'er the twain shall meet.

To me it's simple.. Just lay your life down to Christ and ONLY him.
Don't be intimately involved with any organization that has spritual sway on other people and is -not- Christ centered.

This is the crux of my problem Trinity

I believe you are overestimating the spiritual element of freemasonry itself. The secondary effect of freemasonry is a closer personal introspection, but there is no communal spiritual activity, rather more social in fact. That's not to say lodge meetings cannot be a deeply spiritual experience, but that experience is drawn from the pre-existing faith of the member rather than any 'masonic' teaching.

You call yourself a Christian but yet you are 'intimately' attached to Freemasonry which promotes every OTHER spiritual belief out there.

I don't know how to explain this to you any other way. Take a quote instead from the website of the United Grand Lodge of England, as authoritative a source as you're ever likely to get.

external source: UGLE
Freemasonry and Religion

Introduction
The following information is intended to deal with a topic mentioned in the leaflet 'What is Freemasonry'.

It explains the United Grand Lodge of England's view of the relationship between Freemasonry and religion.

Basic Statement
Freemasonry is not a religion, nor is it a substitute for religion. It demands of its members a belief in a Supreme Being but provides no system of faith of its own.

Freemasonry is open to men of all religious faiths. The discussion of religion at its meetings is forbidden.

The Supreme Being
The names used for the Supreme Being enable men of different faiths to join in prayer (to God as each sees Him) without the terms of the prayer causing dissention among them.

There is no separate Masonic God; a Freemason's God remains the God of the religion he professes.

Freemasons meet in common respect for the Supreme Being, but He remains Supreme in their individual religions, and it is no part of Freemasonry to attempt to join religions together. There is therefore no composite Masonic God.

Volume of the Sacred Law
The Bible, referred to by Freemasons as the Volume of the Sacred Law, is always open at every Masonic meeting.

The Obligation of Freemasonry
The Obligations taken by Freemasons are sworn on or involve the Volume of the Sacred Law, or the book held sacred by those concerned. They are undertakings to help keep secret a Freemason's means of recognition, and to follow the principles of Freemasonry.

The physical penalties, which are purely symbolic, do not form part of an Obligation. The commitment to follow the principles of Freemasonry is, however, deep.

Freemasonry Compared with Religion
Freemasonry lacks the basic elements of religion.

a) it has no theological doctrine, and by forbidding religious discussion at its meetings will not allow a Masonic theological doctrine to develop.
b) It offers no sacraments.
c) It does not claim to lead to salvation by works, by secret knowledge or by any other means. The secrets of Freemasonry are concerned with modes of recognition and not with salvation.

Freemasonry Supports Religion
Freemasonry is far from indifferent to religion. Without interfering in religious practice it expects each member to follow his own faith, and to place above all other duties his duty to God, by whatever name He is known. Its moral teachings are acceptable to all religions.

Freemasonry is thus a supporter of religion.

The nub of your complait seems to be encapsulated thus:

You call yourself a Christian yet you help further an organization that DOES NOT promote Christianity and is in fact 'helping' other people down this insidiously slippery slope to loosing their soul. You *can't*, in the name of Christ, help further the Kingdon of God and at the same time futher this 'spritual free for all' called Freemasonry at the same time.

Freemasonry is not concerned with salvation, or with promoting one religion over another.

I'm sorry Trinity, if you support Freemasonry, you are supporting EVERY other belief 'structure' that is attached to 'it'.

The depths of your misunderstanding of the organization become increasingly apparent. There are no belief structures attached to freemasonry

Please don't try and tell me that you are not leading people away from Christ because even though you may feel that you are not doing this in your immediate 'circle' you are attached to an organization that IS indeed doing just that.

No, it isn't. Until you understand the neutral role of freemasonry in spiritual matters I fear we will continue to go round in circles.

I wish I knew all the statistics but I wonder how many Freemasons are 'Christians' and how many are OTHER doctrines and beliefs.

I would guess that over 90% of freemasons are (nominally) Christian in my country and this would rise to more like 99% in the US.

You seem to believe that I spend all my time in lodge. I spend far more time at Church or doing christian-related activities, including witnessing. I don't witness at work, to people who don't want to be witnessed to, or in Lodge. I don't believe the world was created in 7 days, that the bush neccesarily actually burned, and that I need to be circumcised to enter heaven. Neither do I believe that membership of a secular organization that moralizes over stonemasons tools and re-enacts morality plays based on the Old Testament, precludes me from eternal life. I have found nothing the Bible that tells me so, and heard nothing from yourself or anti-masonic evangelists that tell me so.

God bless

[edit on 6-3-2006 by Trinityman]