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SRA: Real or Fake?

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df1

posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 07:58 AM
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We have lunatics that do all sorts of things, so it would be foolish to believe that we don't have some lunatics on this planet involved in SRA. However IMHO it is unlikely that SRA is organized into anything that would qualify as a global secret society.

With the above in mind Ive questioned whether this thread belongs in "secret societies", however from reviewing the categories available I can't really find a better category, so I guess this is as good a place any.
.




posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 08:16 AM
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In the movie, the allegations are unfounded and innocent people are accused and lives are ruined, I'm guessing.

as I recall most if not all of the charges were unfounded and many lives were
affected.



How many people with no connection to each other have to tell of the same things happening to them before they are given any weight?

As I recall I reading accounts of MANY tales of SRA there is a connection or
Tie that runs through all of the accounts. Fundamentalist xianity. after "escaping" they all convert to fundie xianity exchanging as it were one form of
control for another.

another source of information on this subject as well as some closely tied
to it is Witch Hunts



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 11:01 AM
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Originally posted by df1
With the above in mind Ive questioned whether this thread belongs in "secret societies", however from reviewing the categories available I can't really find a better category, so I guess this is as good a place any.
.


This is likely. The only thing that really has been established as organized is child trafficking. The tales of SRA are usually mixed in with a gamut of other charges, such as child pornography, snuff films, black mailing politicians, child prostitution, and on and on. SRA is always something that doesn't seem to happen alot, even in allegations. They are among the shocking events portrayed by child victims. Also, before starting this thread I did look at the categories and figured this would have to do, since this is were the conversation sprung up. There are reasons to believe children trafficking is an international organized 'business', which is very secret. There are probablly some sick 'initiations' one must do to be apart of something like that, so it might not be too far off.


Originally posted by stalkingwolf
as I recall most if not all of the charges were unfounded and many lives were affected.


I'm not saying this is where the movie 'Indictment' is false, but at the begining of the movie hysteria starts when the son of Judy Johnson comes home from school one afternoon with "a red bottom". Though in real life he hadn't been spanked, he was bleeding from the anus. So it can be trusted that with this little over-sight, there's probablly plenty more where that came from.

educate-yourself.org...
educate-yourself.org...



[edit on 20-8-2005 by Cattlest]

[edit on 20-8-2005 by Cattlest]


df1

posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 12:15 PM
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as I recall most if not all of the charges were unfounded and many lives were affected.

You attributed this to me, I didnt say it. It was another poster.



posted on Aug, 20 2005 @ 12:52 PM
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Sorry, I have corrected this mistake. My bad.



posted on Aug, 21 2005 @ 12:08 PM
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Originally posted by Tinkleflower

Wiki entry on SRA

APA page on abuse and memories

Science Daily's experiment

Christian Research's article, reprinted at rickross.com


I've been reading your links and they have not the least bit of significance to the case Franklin Nebraska case. Thinking you saw bugs bunny at disney land is a little bit different then being abused physically and sexually. The McMartin case did turn into a case of hysteria, but hysteria isn't evidence against the allegations and the first accusations should be addressed. There is still evidence that was never confronted. All I can say is the children said there was tunnels underground and noone believed them enough during the trial. Afterwards it was shown, tunnels underneath the McMartin Preschool. Your page of the 'typical' SRA case, victim, victimizer, etc was just trash. Here is FBI's Kenneth Lanning talking about the problems with SRA cases.

"Any professional evaluating victims' allegations of ritualistic abuse cannot ignore the lack of physical evidence (is it not possible to clean up your tracks and evidence?), the difficulty in successfully committing a large-scale conspiracy crime (he says the more people in a conspiracy the more likely it will be uncovered, fair enough, but this is not true when the victimizers are all people in power using there influence to save their own ass), and human nature: intragroup conflicts resulting in individual self-serving disclosures are likely to occur in any group involved in organized kidnapping, baby breeding, and human sacrifice (what about the cases with just a few people who all have intimate knowledge of their accused, who's specific allegations are different and still do not contradict eachother)

Though I'll take any expert's, FBI or not, words into consideration. Though I will not take them as fact. Particularly because FBI has been involved in cover-ups, specifically the Franklin Nebraska case. Here's another part of the website.

Contrary evidence. There are several problems with the second "proof." Evidence against a story, if gathered professionally and examined objectively, is just that: evidence against a story, not evidence for the story. Offering only one explanation for contrary evidence is committing an either/or (disjunctive) fallacy.

This does happen, such evidence as Troy Boner's confession that he was lying about his story was seen as fallacy by those who were testifying against Lawrence King and company. Thing is not too much later Troy was saying the same thing, the FBI pushed him to recant with promises of safety from those who he had accused, so it is possible. Also I have seen the other side of this, evidence against the accused being called planted or fabricated. Such as the pictures of demon symbols from the Lemegeton found in the soil of McMartin. I do not accept this as fact, but I do consider the possibility.

Such a blanket generalization of the subject leaves hardly any useful information. There are no specifics and this site was made for people ignorant of the topic to read, believe and never take another look at contradicting evidence. Such an oversite of certain specifics leads me to believe this is either for novices who are interested in the subject to take into consideration on their search or just plain old misinformation. I don't know if this might be helpful to someone, but it wasn't the least bit informative to me and can not be something to even influence my opinion.
I have read only a portion of the websites, for I have been busy doing other stuff as well. But I give the 4 websites I've read


[edit on 21-8-2005 by Cattlest]



posted on Aug, 21 2005 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by df1
We have lunatics that do all sorts of things, so it would be foolish to believe that we don't have some lunatics on this planet involved in SRA. However IMHO it is unlikely that SRA is organized into anything that would qualify as a global secret society.

With the above in mind Ive questioned whether this thread belongs in "secret societies", however from reviewing the categories available I can't really find a better category, so I guess this is as good a place any.
.


I concur, df1. I don't think it's truly organized ('though some if it may be a bit organized...birds of a feather, you know?) I've read a great deal about the so-called "Black Mass" practiced by some Satanists, some of whom are said to actually use consecrated Host stolen from a Christian church. Also, several years ago when I was working in southern Indiana a group of individuals were discovered practicing some sort of ritual "Mass" (for lack of a better word) that involved young children urinating into the Chalice before "Communion" That's not one of those "heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend (apologies to REO Speedwagon) I actually read about it in the local newspaper.

So, certainly such things exist, because there ARE some truly sick individuals out there, but some of the SRA-related sites are claiming that it's "Masonic" in nature, and nothing could be farther from the truth (thank God)

Regards,



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 12:49 PM
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I'll answer more fully later, k?

I'm glad the thread is still open, alas I'm sans access at the moment.

Cattlest (sorry, I'm sure it's you who posted, but apologies in advance if I'm confusing you with someone else!) -

Yes, some of those references are given purely as a starting point; in particular the Wiki and similar references.

Have you had chance to read any of the books suggested?



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 02:12 PM
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I have a couple of theories on this:

SRA is really done by some evil Christians trying to make Satanists look bad so they do these things and say the Satanists did it.

Some people have some preconcieved, hollywood, and christian ideas of what satanism is, and it matches with an inner bad feeling they have about themselves and the world in general, and they perform these horrible acts because they are looking to make themselves feel better.

The acts are performed by satanist wannabes who don't even know what satanism really is.

The acts are performed by people who know what satanism is, but feel that their own version is better (more evil) and that is why they do it.

Some people really do have false memory. But if this memory was caused by someone's influence, wouldn't that be very bad as well? Seems like some kind of psychological torture to me.

If you read the satanic bible and the ritual books you won't find any of this stuff in it. That isn't what they are about from what I have read. But they probably wouldn't condemn the actions either. Some would. Most are live and let live. Some are sick of being rejected and having these acts attributed to them and would be angry that others who do these things in their name. And are angry with people who, not knowing who did these actions and why, just assume it is the act of satanists.

MageKMaer


Originally posted by Cattlest
This is a topic of interest of mine. Satanic Ritual Abuse, some say it's a product of False Memory Syndrome, other say it's real. The term Satanic Ritual Abuse is a misnomer, there may be some connection to Church of Satan, though I've yet to see something to suggest that. What it seems to me is more like a Magical Sacrificial Ritual: demon incantation. I'll link some videos, (one already in another thread) and await comments. I encourage both sides of this arguement to post.

Conspiracy of Silence

Satanism and the CIA



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 07:11 PM
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Originally posted by senrak

I concur, df1. I don't think it's truly organized ('though some if it may be a bit organized...birds of a feather, you know?) I've read a great deal about the so-called "Black Mass" practiced by some Satanists, some of whom are said to actually use consecrated Host stolen from a Christian church. Also, several years ago when I was working in southern Indiana a group of individuals were discovered practicing some sort of ritual "Mass" (for lack of a better word) that involved young children urinating into the Chalice before "Communion" That's not one of those "heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend (apologies to REO Speedwagon) I actually read about it in the local newspaper.

So, certainly such things exist, because there ARE some truly sick individuals out there, but some of the SRA-related sites are claiming that it's "Masonic" in nature, and nothing could be farther from the truth (thank God)

Regards,


I think you have got it pretty spot on. There are loads of sick people out there and they become influenced by all kinds of things. Talking about SRA will no doubt promote the idea of it in some sick individuals. I had a brief look on the internet about Black Masses. I soon came across a site that triggered a memeory - but definitely not false


It described the Black Mass of Saint-Secaire. This was documented by Sir James Frazer in The Golden Bough, and this is where I remembered reading it. Now I have always taken Frazer to be reasonably accurate, however I am aware of some terrible inaccuracies within his work - but who doesn't make mistakes hey?



Until the beginning of the 20th century, farmers in Gascogne (France) believed that villains avenged themselves on their enemies by having a priest perform the Mass of Saint-Sécaire.
It is not commonly known amongst priests, and of those who do, only a handful dare performing it. Only the most corrupted and depraved priests are willing read this mass, and they can be sure that they will pay heavily for this on Judgement Day. No other priest or bishop, not even an archbishop, can absolve this crime; only the Pope of Rome has this right.

As is often with such rituals, there are certain obscure and sinister conditions under which it must be performed.The priest must, accompanied by a harlot (who is also his lover), travel to a ruined or deserted church, where bats hang from the ceiling, where gypsies spent the night and where toads live under the desecrated altar.

The evil priest will then begin to read the Black Mass backwards at exactly eleven o'clock, and he must be finished when the clock strikes midnight. The harlot will act as his precentor during this ritual. The host he blesses is black and triangular; he consecrates no wine, but instead he drinks water from a well in which the lifeless body of an unbaptized child has been thrown. He draws the sign of the cross, but on the ground and with his left foot. Besides these acts, there are many more; some of which the merest glimpse will make a good, faithful Christian go blind, mute and deaf for the rest of his life.

The person for whom this mass was read will gradually start to waste and nobody can tell what is wrong, not even doctors, and there is no cure for it.



So I then did another quick google search to find out more about this ritual, and then I found this article




A case in point: one influential description of the ritual appears in Modem Witchcraft (1970), which Frank Smyth later claimed to have written in five days. Smyth describes the preconditions of the Black Mass: "A ruined or deserted church is favoured by Satanists for their rituals… The Mass begins at eleven o’clock, timed so that it shall finish on the stroke of midnight." The Host, he informs us, may be black and triangular in shape and so on.19

None of this was first-hand; Smyth had never attended a Black Mass himself. Like many other 'sources', he was retelling an account known as the ‘Mass of Saint Secaire’ that had appeared in several sensational books including The Satanic Mass (1964) by HIF Rhodes… and it is Rhodes’s book that contains the translation of Etienne Lamothe-Langon’s previously mentioned History of the Inquisition of France, with its fund of fabricated details. 4

One of these lurid notions is that the ‘unholy’ water for the Black Mass must come from a well in which an unbaptised baby has been drowned. Some years ago I set out to discover the original source for this widely told story. It proved to be a book called Contes Populaires de La Gascogne, published in Paris in 1895. Rather to my surprise, I discovered that it was not a ‘history’ but an anthology of fairy tales, in which the 'Black Mass of Saint Secaire' appears alongside 'The Sleeping Beauty', 'The Wicked Stepmother' and 'The Sea that Sang, the Apple that Danced, and the Little Bird who Told All'.



So it turns out that Frazer's work was based on a fairy tale, and that this myth has been copied, miscopied, and muddled up over the years. The article that debunked this myth can be found here

www.forteantimes.com...

And the author's conclusion is highly recommended, but I will not quote it here for fear of becoming quote happy.

It all goes to show that things can be distorted over the years, then influence some pretty crazy people, and before you know it there is mass panic. If you want to be certain of anything you have to do some decent research. That is why I am not too sure of all of this!!



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 07:14 PM
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O.K. could I get away with saying one of my theories is that it happenens but is done by masons to discredit the Christians that support the survivers?

As to false memoury it is very common but in those lied to all their lives by "loved ones" that their childhood really was a happy one. Often these people start remembering (or putting together memouries that have haunted them their whole lives) in adulthood, things they couldn't deal with as a young child.

Please when writing on this subject have a little compassion as anyone who has dared to speak out finds that riddicule is the common responce where as compassion is in very short supply.

Flex you hummour muscles on humourous subjects unless you want to be suspected of heartlessness or even part of the coverup.


df1

posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 07:34 PM
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Originally posted by suzy ryan
O.K. could I get away with saying one of my theories is that it happenens but is done by masons to discredit the Christians that support the survivers?

You could say it, however I could say my theory is that SRA is done by fundamentalist Christians to relieve their repressed desires while at the same time discrediting Masons. We can pretty much say what we want, but saying it does not make it true.

Just out of curiousity, why do you have such a bee in your bonnet about Masons?
.



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 07:38 PM
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Originally posted by suzy ryan
Flex you hummour muscles on humourous subjects unless you want to be suspected of heartlessness or even part of the coverup.


And therein lies the problem with you conspiracy theorists. Anything is possible, therefore anyone who does not agree with you COULD be part of the cover-up. And since they COULD be, then they MUST be... right?

I hate to break it to you, but MILLIONS of people disagree with you. Does that mean they could all be part of the cover-up? GET REAL. Life is not like you think it is, and certainly not like you wish it was. Stop blindly accusing people of things just because you don't like what they have to say!

Conspiracy theory focuses not on what is likely, only what is possible. The lack of reason and logic in conspiracy theory astounds me. :bnghd:


[edit on 23-8-2005 by sebatwerk]


df1

posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 07:47 PM
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Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Flex you hummour muscles on humourous subjects unless you want to be suspected of heartlessness or even part of the coverup.


Conspiracy theory focuses not on what is likely, only what is possible. The lack of reason and logic in conspiracy theory astounds me. :bnghd:


Awwww come on Seb, I was hoping some one was going to do some SRA humor as ol' suzy suggested. Stop being a stick in the mud.

Signed your economics challenged brother...
.



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 08:32 PM
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I was not accussing anyone of anything, I was posing a question and asking for compassion. Simple. Saddly folk like df1 still think SRA is a topic to be laughed about. The S in SRA stands for Satanic not Christian OR Masonic yet somehow this has turned into a Christian bashing, Mason defending thread. As masons also claim to be Christian I would have thought some would be as quick to defend their fellow brothers faith as they are their 'club'. Oh that's right, it was just a joke, the kind of joke that only one lacking empathy or compassion could enjoy. Carefull guy's, your manners and morals are slipping or is it no longer required of a moral person to defend the weak and powerless.....oh why do I bother... you'll just selectively quote me out of context again. SRA IS REAL and saddly no amount of joking, denial or subject hijacking will make it stop but those much and loudly voiced attitudes will help it go on. Make of that statement what you will.



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 08:36 PM
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Originally posted by suzy ryan
SRA IS REAL and saddly no amount of joking, denial or subject hijacking will make it stop but those much and loudly voiced attitudes will help it go on.


Do you have an example of a proven case of SRA? By proven, I mean documented, investigated, tried and convicted.


df1

posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 08:54 PM
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Originally posted by suzy ryan
Saddly folk like df1 still think SRA is a topic to be laughed about.

Absolutely false. I would never laugh about SRA, however I have no reservations about laughing at a poster. What you posted was not a theory, it was merely a thought that popped into your head which you used to get attention. I am giving your remarks the attention they deserve.

IMHO you are doing more to damage the cause of preventing sexual abuse, ritual and otherwise, by your whacky posts than you are doing to prevent it.
.



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 09:17 PM
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Sorry to jump in to this....but I just had to comment....

Suzy you are the one that keeps bring Mason's in to the mix when discussing SRA. You even went so far as to tell me in another thread that it "villified" you to include them. www.abovetopsecret.com...
post # 1619301

I suspect that people would be alot more receptive to your argument/cause should you not "villify" yourself by accusing groups of innocent people.

I'm in no way defending those that may perform these acts, attacking your character or you in anyway. Just giving a little friendly advice.

People have a tendency to go straight to defense mode when you make wide spread accusations.

[edit on 23-8-2005 by Golfie]



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 10:08 PM
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Thanks Golfie, I hope readers will look up that thread and read all the posts in context. I made a point of not singling out masons and did not say it was I being villified but posters who saw things differently to the "ALL MASONS ARE ALL GOOD" camp. Straight up, square and true, I give masons alot of "outs" but they, like Sebatwerk who said he would ignor me, can't help but bash anyone they see as not four square in their camp. Either that or they don't want things like SRA being discussed on this site and so they hijack the topic to the, "oh we poor missunderstood masons" or "how dare anyone imply all masons arn't all good" whine so they can keep bashing any they perceive as anti mason, thinking it will help their image. I mention masonry in reponse to offensive comments made by masons. But I'm sure you or you ilk will dig up another thread to quote out of context. Can't let this topic run can you and I have to wonder why.....



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 10:26 PM
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Originally posted by sebatwerk
Do you have an example of a proven case of SRA? By proven, I mean documented, investigated, tried and convicted.


Here's a case won against Lawrence King, a politician from Nebraska.


----------------------------------------------------------------
In the United States District Court
For the District of Nebraska

Paul A. Bonacci, Plaintiff 4:CV91-3037
vs
Lawrence E. King, Defendant Memorandum of Decision
Filed February 22, 1999

On February 27, 1998, I found that default judgment should be
entered against the defendant Lawrence E. King in favor of the
plaintiff, Paul A. Bonacci. A trial on the issue of the damages due
the plaintiff by that defendant was had on February 5, 1999.

Two counts are alleged against the defendant: King in the
complaint. Count V alleges a conspiracy with public officers to
deprive the plaintiff of his civil rights, designed to continue to
subject the plaintiff to emotional abuse and to prevent him from
informing authorities of criminal conduct. Count VIII charges
battery, false imprisonment, infliction of emotional distress,
negligence and conspiracy to deprive the plaintiff of civil rights.
Between December 1980 and 1988, the complaint alleges, the
defendant King continually subjected the plaintiff to repeated
sexual assaults, false imprisonments, infliction of extreme
emotional distress, organized and directed satanic rituals, forced
the plaintiff to "scavenge" for children to be a part of the
defendant King's sexual abuse and pornography ring, forced the
plaintiff to engage in numerous masochistic orgies with other minor
children. The defendant King's default has made those allegations
true against him. The issue now is the relief to be granted
monetarily.

The now uncontradicted evidence is that the plaintiff has suffered
much. He has suffered burns, broken fingers, beating of the head
and face and other indignities by the wrongful actions of the
defendant King. In addition to the misery of going through the
experiences just related over a period of eight years, the
plaintiff has suffered the lingering results to the present time.
He is a victim of multiple personality disorder, involving as many
as fourteen distinct personalities aside from his primary
personality. He has given up a desired military career and received
threats on his life. He suffers from sleeplessness, has bad dreams,
has difficulty in holding a job, is fearful that others are
following him, fears getting killed, has depressing flashbacks, and
is verbally violent on occasion, all in connection with the
multiple personality disorder and caused by the wrongful activities
of the defendant King.

Almost certainly the defendant King has little remaining financial
resources, but a fair judgment to compensate the plaintiff is
necessary. For the sixteen years since the abuse of the plaintiff
began I conclude that a fair compensation for the damages he has
suffered is $800,000. A punitive damage award also is justified,
but the amount needs to be limited because of the small effect that
such a judgment would have on the defendant King, given his
financial condition and presence in prison. I deem the punitive
damage award of $200,000 to be adequate. Dated February 19, 1999.
By the Court /s/Warren Urborn United States Senior District Judge
-----------------------------------------------------------------



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