BTK Killer - Bleeding Hearts Explain To Me Why He Should Not Be Dead

I think you'd be hardpressed to find anyone who would support this monster in fact I think this is one of the few issues that despite partisanship you'll find ATSunited behind.

For the record I support the death penalty.
I just don't it should be handed out as freely as we do in this country.
I believe it should be used only in cases like this one where the "person" is beyond any hope of redemption and no doubt can be found regarding the "persons" guilt.


This man has renounced his humanity and should be treated accordingly.
Having said that I don't believe that should be executed at least not yet.
He should be put into extreme isolation and studied which should be punishment enough in my opinion. I'm talking extreme science here not your everyday medical experiment stuff.
Once no further use can be found for him he should be killed humanely and then dissected and preserved for further study.

Originally posted by Tinkleflower

Originally posted by sigung86
Kind of interesting that there are two points of view here that I don't guess I understand... They both tend to make folks "Not guilty" for their actions, and at the same time they kind of go hand in hand.

Interesting perspective. Can I ask why you interpret those options as equating to him being "not guilty"?

Sorry Tink, I'm talking about people who feel it is not in their purview to step up and take responsibility for issuing a death penalty. Folks who will sit there for years and argue the humanitarian side of this killer instead of simply stepping up and taking responsibility for harsh decisions.

1. Don't kill hiim... Let him rot in prison.
2. Let him stay in prison until someone kills him.

The way I see it, if we do either one of them, we never have to really take a stand on the morality of the act, or stand in judgement, and take responsibility for dealing out a death penalty.

But our society's laws are taking a stand and standing in judgement when they convict someone. These laws are based upon the morals and beliefs of a society. Just because they might not reflect your ideals - or a belief/support of the death penalty - doesn't make them any less responsible or moral, you know?

If you won't stand for the hard decisions to take a life if needed so that
civilization is a better, safer place or you won't stand for the protection of the innocent, as opposed to trying to treat a killer with no compunction about it, as a contributing member of society with rights, then yes it is less responsible and moral ... The rest is a cop out.

I'm not so much worried about an eye for an eye on a creep like this, those who are dead, are dead. I don't intend to try to out think God...
But if we kill him now, then we don't have to worry about him tomorrow. We don't have to give him a second opportunity to continue with wanton killing, death and destruction... We are rid of the problem. Your kids, my kids, everyone elses kids have a better chance at surviving to an old age.

And frankly, I, as a third party, would not have an issue with voting him down or being responsible for pulling the trigger.

I guess that makes me immoral, and irresponsible, but I don't feel much of a reason to be nice to this butcher.

[edit on 18-8-2005 by sigung86]

Phoenix has an interesting point. Anyone remember the video of the child molester, walking through the airport, smiling for the cameras in the seventies. Then, out of nowhere, the father of one of his victims, who is standing beside a bank of public telephones as the procession passes, pulls a gun from his coat and puts one in the guy's head as he's walking past? Anyone remember that video?

Most of us would sympathize with the father's desire to murder the man. Most of us would probably do much the same thing in his shoes, or at least strongly want to.

Point being, we all make decisions every day. BTK made his decisions, and everyone else is entitled to make their own. If someone decides to murder this murderer, then they accept whatever consequences such an act entails.

There's a lot of bitching and moaning in the world, and very little decisive action. People have so much power to make their dreams come true, and most of them are too afraid to use it. BTK wanted to torture and murder children, and get off while doing it. Well, guess what folks, he got what he wanted.

Now there's all these people who want him dead, and probably won't lift a finger to make that a reality, so they won't get what they want, because they lack a quality present in the object of their hatred, conviction. (No pun intended, I swear )

Originally posted by WyrdeOne

There's a lot of bitching and moaning in the world, and very little decisive action. People have so much power to make their dreams come true, and most of them are too afraid to use it. BTK wanted to torture and murder children, and get off while doing it. Well, guess what folks, he got what he wanted.

Now there's all these people who want him dead, and probably won't lift a finger to make that a reality, so they won't get what they want, because they lack a quality present in the object of their hatred, conviction. (No pun intended, I swear

)

EXACTLY! I vaguely remember the 70's video but I am more recently reminded of the mother in the late 80's who , shot her sons molester in a courthouse......

Seriously though as I mentioned in another thread....If someone did ANYTHING to my kid they better pray the law gets to them first, and even then it only grants them a stay. I will do all I can to make sure they die in Jail, or die when they get out.

If more people took responsibility for their families and their loved ones this would not be a problem. Right wrong or anything else I can and will live with the reprecussions of my actions, and if and when I meet my maker I will take responsibility for them.

I definately do not believe he should have received the death penalty, nor do I believe he should be placed in 'general population'. I believe he should have been handed over to a mental health facility. Why?

Because to this day, we do not have any good nor reliable understanding on Violent Sexual Serial Killers. We have studies and profilers who can pin point most other classes of criminal behavior. Sometimes the 'Criminal Profile' is all that authorities have to go by when searching out an offender. Unfortunately, this type of criminal is the most difficult to catch and our Psychologists don't have much to reference in order to predict such behavior.

Originally posted by Springer

Does the name Jeffery Dahmmer (spelling?) ring any bells? I agree 27jd, I bet he won't make it two years in prison, hopefully those two years will be FILLED with him being called Nancy by some 350lb weightlifter, O.G. who likes his girlfriends all bloddy, crying and black and blue...

I know the above is disgustingly harsh, I also know it's STILL too good for this maggot.

Springer...

This is exactly what I'm afraid of. BTK will most likely die in prison and we'll be left with nothing to analyze.

I agree that this man does not deserve to even be human, but why can't we take advantage of such a horrific event and learn something from it? If we could figure out how these people think and why they think this way, then maybe those beautiful victims could potentially be the last to go through such torture. Perhaps then their memory would be remembered for changing the way for future victims, rather than as 'the woman/girl tortured and killed by BTK'.

Make this man a genuea pig. Bring in every top Psychologist, Criminologist, University Professor...everyone! Study and research this guy every single waking minute he lives. Then, dissect his brain after his death.

All of you are correct in saying that this guy doesn't deserve to live, he absolutely doesn't. So, let's take away his 'life'. Keep him in a straight jacket or strapped to a gurney, maybe even behind glass walls so we can watch, watch, watch, and watch. Call him by his 'case number' versus his name. Make him a genuea pig.

We can learn from this, but we have to be willing to put our anger and hatred aside for the sake of all the lives that will be saved.

I did a thesis on 'Serial Killers' for my 'Abnormal Psychology' final paper in college over 10 yrs ago. I was frustrated by the lack of resources and material available. I felt like I was pulling at straws to get enough info to statisfy the minimum reference requirement. After a decade, we are no closer to understanding this persona. In fact, we're actually further away. The profile and psychology that was theory a decade ago actually turned out to be unreliable.

Psychologists are profiling based on second and third person interviews. They are getting their information from family and friends of the perputrator. What we're finding out is just how 'unreliable' that information is turning out to be. These serial killers are incredible cameleons, extremely intelligent (most have very high IQs), and live double (sometimes triple) lives.


Okay, I rambled long enough. Sorry

Originally posted by SourGrapes

Make this man a genuea pig. Bring in every top Psychologist, Criminologist, University Professor...everyone! Study and research this guy every single waking minute he lives. Then, dissect his brain after his death.

All of you are correct in saying that this guy doesn't deserve to live, he absolutely doesn't. So, let's take away his 'life'. Keep him in a straight jacket or strapped to a gurney, maybe even behind glass walls so we can watch, watch, watch, and watch. Call him by his 'case number' versus his name. Make him a genuea pig.

We can learn from this, but we have to be willing to put our anger and hatred aside for the sake of all the lives that will be saved.

I did a thesis on 'Serial Killers' for my 'Abnormal Psychology' final paper in college over 10 yrs ago. I was frustrated by the lack of resources and material available. I felt like I was pulling at straws to get enough info to statisfy the minimum reference requirement. After a decade, we are no closer to understanding this persona. In fact, we're actually further away. The profile and psychology that was theory a decade ago actually turned out to be unreliable.

You raise some great points, there truly are not enough thorough studies done on this. I have to agree that thoroughly studying them for a while would prove to be of some good. I do think that this would only be good for so long though.

Even if we do study them you have to admit all we are going to find out is their current brain chemistry, and theorize on how past circumstances might of playes a developmental role in them. This however will not ever give us a full picture of the mind of a serial killer. AS I said before not all serial killers share the same backgrounds.

Ted Bundy immediately comes to mind, from all I have read he was raised pretty normally, besied his "psychologically" unstable grandfather, he lived a normal life and was described by childhood friends as a "normal happy child"

Friends generally recalled Bundy as a happy, normal child. He was a good, if not spectacular, student at Woodrow Wilson High School, and was active in the Methodist Church and the Boy Scouts.

en.wikipedia.org...

These are the people I am talking about...What do we do after all the studies have been done, and all root causes eliminated (assuming this COULD ever happen) then what do we do with these types of people who have appeared to indulge in every sick fantasy that the mind has to offer, despite their circumstances?

[edit on 18-8-2005 by phoenixhasrisin]

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin

Even if we do study them you have to admit all we are going to find out is their current brain chemistry, and theorize on how past circumstances might of playes a developmental role in them. This however will not ever give us a full picture of the mind of a serial killer. AS I said before not all serial killers share the same backgrounds.

You are correct with serial killers having different backgrounds. In fact, that was the primary factor Psychologists focused on when studying the Serial Killer's behavior, and even referenced social upbringing when describing the "common characteristics" of a potential and past killers. I think this is their biggest mistake. They were simply looking fror that 'common bond' that would describe their subjects, which the Dr. most likely subscribed to before even researching the criminal's history.

For instance, if said Psychologist believes that a single mother raising her boy alone is a greater risk of releasing criminals into society, then that's exactly what he will focus on. If for no other reason than justifying his theory.

Rather than focusing on similarities (which we all know here at ATS - look for enough 'common denominators' and we'll for sure prove our point!), the research should focus on eliminating all possible character (or chemical) similarities. When the researcher finds certain areas (whether it be social, mental, vitamin deficiency, or what ever) that he absolutely cannot eliminate, now we've got something to focus on.

My feeling is that it is not socially molded, nor influenced. My feeling is that it's a lack of something. For most of them to have such high IQs, which part of their chemistry are they giving up? (ex. if you have bad eyesight, usually have better hearing) Perhaps they are missing the genetic makeup to reason, or maybe their emotional feelings are infantile or immature?

These are the people I am talking about...What do we do after all the studies have been done, and all root causes eliminated (assuming this COULD ever happen) then what do we do with these types of people who have appeared to indulge in every sick fantasy that the mind has to offer, despite their circumstances?

Not so many years ago, our society would institutionalize people for the slightest of behavioral abnormality. Women going through menopause, clinically depressed persons, and many other 'minor' chemical deficiencies.

Well, we either learn what makes them so different or we don't. We have nothing to lose and so much to gain. Tax payers will pay for these sick minds either way, better to have our money earn some sort of return.

Edit: Oops, had to go back and add the /quote

[edit on 18-8-2005 by SourGrapes]

Can everybody please watch the big quotes and go back and edit them down some.

Thanks

Sourgrapes-

It would appear that we agree on more than one factor surrounding these circumstances. Not trying to be rude, but you still have not adressed how these people should be dealt with once we do have all the relevant scientific data on them?

At what point do we say: Yeah these people are a bane on our existence, and we need to do away with them?

Or in your mind does that moment never arrive? (not trying to demean just trying to get an idea)

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
Sourgrapes-

It would appear that we agree on more than one factor surrounding these circumstances. Not trying to be rude, but you still have not adressed how these people should be dealt with once we do have all the relevant scientific data on them?

Well, that all depends on the results of such research. I would hope that our research would give us the tools we need to be pro-active vs re-active. If a clinical trial shows that a certain antidepressent, when taken during pregnancy, is directly contributable to offspring with lower (or eliminated) 'feeling' and/or some 'sympathy' gene, then of course we would move that drug to a higher category (ex. to category D) or even ban the drug all together. It's not to say that the clinical results would mean that every single pregnacy while on such drug resulted in a serial killer gene, but perhaps we'll find something similar depending on other factors which contribute to the behavior.

Maybe we find out that every single one of these killers ate at the same truck stop in Telebuga, Mississipi and they all ordered chicken.

I'm obviously being sarcastic in both of my analogies, but I'm trying to make a point of 'we'll deal with that once we know the results'. Isn't that what we are doing now? Dealing with the offender 'when we know, or find out the results'?

I'm certainly not suggesting that every single convited offender who is dubbed a 'Violent Sexual Serial Killer' would get the same sentence. I just found this guy unique, as in 'extreme'. The only other 'extreme' I can think to even compare him to is Jeffrey Dahme. Well it's too late to get in his brain, and I'm sure many professionals figured his case 'unique' and extreme. Hmmm, if we had assessed Jeffrey and studied him, perhaps (that's 'perhaps', I'm not trying to make predictions) the Agents involved in the BTK case would have caught him before he sacraficed his last two victims.

We'll never know if a legitimate psychological profile would have saved a few girls from BTK, but we do know that if we don't come up with a legitimate and reliable profile then we'll never be able to catch up to him before he strikes again.

We'll never know if a legitimate psychological profile would have saved a few girls from BTK, but we do know that if we don't come up with a legitimate and reliable profile then we'll never be able to catch up to him before he strikes again.

True but that still disregards the actuality of similar behaviour arising, that is without cause, and explanation...

Once again, not to be rude...but how do you address these cases?

[edit on 19-8-2005 by phoenixhasrisin]

I'm not sure if many of you are aware of this but BTK is not eligible for the death penalty. HE CAN'T GET IT. In Kansas the death penalty was not instated until 1994. His last murder was in 1991 prior to the death penalty. Therefore through this loophole, he can't get the death penalty. I only bring this up because there is much debate about "He should get the death penalty" or "when he gets it" etc. etc. On one of the news coverages today, they said he will most likley get put into the general population. I agree he won't live long with the GP being that he is a self proclaimed child molester.

As for some of you who think he SHOULDN'T get the death penalty, and better yet, fill his room with childs laughter/screams and posters of his victims... that would give the monster too much pride. He lives for that stuff. He took pictures of his victims so he could revel in his "work" later on. WHY would you let him get his way for the rest of his miserable life by showing him the pictures of his terrible deeds. I say its a sad sad thing when he gets out of the death penalty because of some loop hole. What they need is a law that takes away the "grandfather clause" and put this monster in the gas chamber NOW.

I am semi-pro death penalty, but only in certain situations. This is a perfect example. You have a criminal who fully confesses to everything they have done. Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth. You kill, you will be killed. I am not a fan of the death penalty when the grounds for conviction are shakey to say the least. I am not for killing a wrongly convicted person for anothers crimes. I am for putting down the scum of the earth who there is no doubt that they have done the said deed.

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin

True but that still disregards the actuality of similar behaviour arising, that is without cause, and explanation...

Once again, not to be rude...but how do you address these cases?

[edit on 19-8-2005 by phoenixhasrisin]

Well, obviously we cannot convict someone for having the 'potential' to commit a crime. I suppose the benefits of said research would come into play after the crime was committed; hopefully, to assist in the capture and lock-up of the criminal before he has too many notches on his belt. These guys usually go for decades, while hiding just shy of the radar (I believe they thrive on the exitement of 'being smarter' than the average cop, or detective, and will likely play 'cat and mouse' by barely eluding the authorities for years).

I'm surprised you haven't brought up the premise of one's 'personal rights' in regards to becoming a clinical genuea pig. The legal road blocks would never allow a convicted criminal to be put through these sort of medical experiments and/or research. So, I don't even know why I'm spending so much time writing out loud about this. Oh well.

He belongs in a box 6x3. 6 feet under the ground with a 9mm hollow point bullet in his head.
Or inject him with Ebola, and watch him die. He deserves it.

Or a human giuna pig, but do not allow people to treat him as a person. Or if he becomes the prisons "Bitch" that is not such a bad idea eiter.

Originally posted by IamIronMan
I'm not sure if many of you are aware of this but BTK is not eligible for the death penalty. HE CAN'T GET IT. In Kansas the death penalty was not instated until 1994.

Yup, many posters have answered this with the same clarification

Regarding the question "What do we do after he's been studied".

Keep him locked up for life.

This keeps him off the street, and unable to commit any similar or crimes. It renders him unable to remain part of any other civilian population, and LWOP is rarely overturned (when it is, it's usually because of legal loopholes or further evidence which would overturn a DP conviction in any case, so the point is probably moot).

Then again, I've never supported the concept of "an eye for an eye", anyway; as clichéd as it sounds, I do think Gandhi was right in thinking it makes the whole world blind.

Originally posted by Macuser
Charles Manson, amongst many others are in the "protected" areas. He's another piece of garbage who should be reckoned with. After all, all he did was carve up Sharon Tate and her unborn child like a bar of soap, so he deserves to be protected.

Actually Charles Manson wasn't even there when the murders occured. A sick bastard, no doubt, but a testament to the power of persuasion.

There have been some very salient points made here.

I agree that this man does not deserve to even be human, but why can't we take advantage of such a horrific event and learn something from it? If we could figure out how these people think and why they think this way, then maybe those beautiful victims could potentially be the last to go through such torture. Perhaps then their memory would be remembered for changing the way for future victims, rather than as 'the woman/girl tortured and killed by BTK'.

Make this man a genuea pig. Bring in every top Psychologist, Criminologist, University Professor...everyone! Study and research this guy every single waking minute he lives. Then, dissect his brain after his death.

I completely disagree with you on this, however you have intrigued me on a level I never have thought of before. So answer me this if you will. Is there an actual point to studying this man? Can anything viable come out of it?
There are millions of automobiles made annually. hundreds of people buy the exact same car as you, however yours is "a lemon" it just is broken. No matter what they do they can't fix it. They diagnose, and diagnose, and diagnose, but they cannot fix the problem. Nor can they fix the problem in future automobiles, because it is an anomoly they can't figure out. So they trash the "lemon" and move on.
This "monster" is broken. He cannot be made to live the rest of his life in a man made Hell, he is already a demon on earth. He brings Hell to earth and revels in his glories. He can't wait to sit next to Satan. His pre-meditated gore fests have RUINED THE LIVES OF MANY. As a father, I would not be able to handle watching this piece of sh-t sitting there in a suit, waxing poetic over how he killed my kin. Think about that. THINK ABOUT THAT as if it were your siblings or offspring.
Many on this thread have asked what would happen if someone wrongly accused..... Get a life people. This is a completely different circumstance. He is BRAGGING about his "conquests". The only time he showed emotion is when he admitted that he wanted to kill the children of a victim, but because their Mommy "fought like a hellcat" he didn't have the time to kill them. He screamed "CHRIST" when he admitted he wasn't able to kill the children.
There is NO argument here. This is not a wrongly accused man. He did it. He admitted it.
He revels in it. Kill the bastard.

think you'd be hardpressed to find anyone who would support this monster in fact I think this is one of the few issues that despite partisanship you'll find ATSunited behind.

For the record I support the death penalty.
I just don't it should be handed out as freely as we do in this country.
I believe it should be used only in cases like this one where the "person" is beyond any hope of redemption and no doubt can be found regarding the "persons" guilt.

Well said boogyman.
This is my point exactly. Since there is no doubt whatsoever about this mans guilt - kill him. I never said, nor did I imply that everyone should have the death penalty. I am speaking solely of those that are absolutely beyond the shadow of a doubt guilty. This "thing" is beyond anything I could even imagine.
His quote that "I was surprised to find that humans were harder to strangle than the cats and dogs I had practiced on".......
Do I need to put into words the abhorrent mindset of him?
At times, some of his victims would regain consciousness after he strangled them, and he would whisper in their ear "I am BTK", just to raise his victims level of fear for his own "sexual release".
Jusy kill him now, or like many have stated, put him into the general prison population.

I watched his sentencing yesterday.

His 30 minute speech was sickening. It was all about himself.
He wanted the 'record' set straight and wanted the even the
smallest details of his crimes to be correct for his 'legacy'.

It was an Oscar acceptance speech. Disgusting.

He may have gotten 10 life sentences, but it really is the death
penalty. When he gets to prison eventually someone will take
him out - ala Jeffrey Dahlmer.

I'm against the death penalty except for cases of self defense
for us all .... but this guy (and Scott Peterson) REALLY put my
stand to the test and I admit that I have second thoughts about
where I stand on the death penalty when these types of cases
come up.

A Time to Kill Great movie. Sometimes God just needs to sit one out and let us handle our business down here. Especially when it comes to sick people like BTK. Like I said earlier, remember Tax payers you are giving this guy a bed to sleep on and three square meals a day.


"Forgiveness is between them and God. It's my job to arrange the meeting"
- Denzel Washington Man on Fire