No Religion? No Free Will.

I believe this is the right forum for this; if not, I'm sure it'll be moved

I'm sure most of you have heard of the term predestination. It is generally a religious term used to say that God dictates what we're going to do before we even do it. In Christian circles, Calvanists and Reformed Theology believers believe in this concept. I, presonally, don't believe in predestination, but that's a theological debate and not why I'm writing this.

Fundamental Christians believe that God created Adam from the dust of the earth and breathed life into him. Most, if not all, Christians and many other religions, too, believe man has a soul. There is more to man that flesh and bone all driven by electrical stimuli and chemical reactions, we believe.

However, athiests do not. An athiest does not believe we have a soul or something more. What you see is what you get.

Now, if the athiests are correct, we have no free will. Our fate was written 20 billion years ago during the Big Bang. If we could make a model of every particle in the Big Bang and the course by which it took in the universe, we would not only be able to read people's thoughts, but actually predict the future.

After all, physics holds all things to a set of laws. With a complete understanding of those laws and the ability to model the universe from the Big Bang until now, we would be able to track every collision, every joining, every atomic split, etc. until we get little ol' junglejake. We would know exactly what every particle in my body is up to, which synapses are firing, what chemical reactions are taking place in my mind, and thereby exactly what I am thinking. We could know what I was going to do before I do it. Even if I was told, there would be nothing I could do to prevent it. It's physics.

With the introduction of a soul, however, something intangable, outside of our universe's laws, we can introduce free will. I can't explain the science behind how a soul could change the trajectory of a particle, but I make this assumption because it's the only unknown.

So if you don't believe in God or a spiritual existance, you can't realistically believe in free will. The science says otherwise.

[edit on 8-18-2005 by junglejake]

See, as an atheist (or the Christian definition of one), I think it is the other way around. If God has a plan and is making all the decisions of my life path, then what difference does my decisions make. And for that matter, am I making the decisions, or are the words coming out of my mouth just being made simply because that is God's Will. In which case, still isn't Free will, but GOD's will. Whereas if I don't believe in God, then I believe that every decision I make is my decision alone. Not one that is influenced or even made by some higher being.

After all, how many people refer to the person that was killed in the car accident as "It was God's Will" but never acknowledging that it was the fact that he/she was driving drunk. Not god's will, but the will of the driver that knew he/she shouldn't be driving. To me, "God's Will" has been an easy out to acknowledging free will and personal responsibility.

I agree with you that "God's Will" has been used as a cop-out on many occasions. A means for a grieving family to pass the buck, not blame their child/husband/father for getting into the car drunk but saying there was nothing that could be done, it was his time.

What about the science behind my contention, though? How can you contradict what physical laws say must be true?

Here are some webpages on the topic that look enlightening:
Atheism, Free Will,
And Material Determinism (a portion of a larger discussion)
Free will and determinism
Hardin-Simmons University Logsdon School of Theology: Theism, atheism, and the metaphyscis of Free Will(pdf)
Materialism, Determinism, and Free-Will
A Case for Free Will and Determinism
Applied Ethics: Science and Freedom

Er...Nygdan, I hate to sound like a lazy informationaphobe, but is there any way you could give us a summary of the science behind the discussions and articles you linked to?

For the most part, I would be asking other people to do that, but you're a pretty darn intelligent individual who seems to display integerty. I would like to read through those articles and discussions, and hopefully will (I bookmarked them...The last time I told you I was going to read through some links you left, I did get through one of them but the compy crashed and I lost all my FireFox tabs. Weak excuse, but it's been corrected none the less ), but I'm also curious of members opinions and beliefs on the subject. Posting links to massive amounts of information without an explanation tends to kill a thread more than develop it...

I just got finished with a conversation with my mom, and I think I understand why this has gotten such little play. We have both been drinking, and as a result I brought up ATS. (she thinks I'm a nut because I go here ) I brought up this topic, and we discussed it a bit. She did not like where I was going (she's a science worshipper, where as I'm a Jesus worshipper). She is pretty well versed in physics, as I am, and we had a back and forth for about an hour. Her final stand was on quant6um physics. If you know anything about quantum physics, there is a percentage of spin chance that determines what is going to happen. However, the only reason that percentage is there is because of measuring the spin. IBM had developed a quantum computer, too. The arguement that broke her, after I excalimed while laughing aloud that she belonged on this site more than I did, was that either IBM lied about it's computer, or quantup physics is predictable.

She ended the conversation saying that she would not believe that, without a soul or spiritual side existing outside of the laws of physics, she has no will. She simply said, "no" after I had countered every arguement she made about randomness in the universe.

So, like I said, I understand why this thread is getting so little play. People who don't believe in a spiritual realm are afraid to address this, because science says our thoughts are predictable through the big bang. Fear is a good emotional reason to run from an arguement, but not a scientific one. Please, someone, challenge this and prove me wrong through science, because science is all that is involved here. TThere is no unpredictability here, physics dictates what you believe and feel and do. Phisics explains your fear to address an issue you have no answer to currently. Physics dictates that you will google or search for where the issue is discussed, and run from the conversation after that.

At least, that is what I have gathered from this thread's responses and lack there of. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. We like, as humans, to think we're in control of our lives, when in reality we have no control whatsoever. A piece of 747 coulds come crashing down on my head right now like the bridge did in Chicago yesterday on the construction workers. We need that control to feel secure, and those who don't believe in the spiritual realm can't accept that physics isn't random when it comes to their thought processes. If I'm wrong, please tell me.

hmmmm

how very interesting...

junglejake, I disagree with you on some issues, but this is the one we absolutely agree on.
I have the exact same thoughts about our existence.
The universe is governed by laws and as such it is predictable. It is an insanely complicated intricate web of billions of particles, but still everything is guided by laws.

A soul is something introduced from outside of this realm of existence and it has the power to change it.
The more spiritual we are the more is our soul capable of changing the material world. We have to be aware of it to be able to use it.

It also can explain predictions and why some come true. Some people have the ability to make the impossible calculation of where this universe is going and have a vision about it.
However, there is always a possibility that someone with a strong spiritual connection can change that, can change the future. The changed future cannot be predicted because the influence of the soul is not governed by the same laws the universe is, so we cannot bring that into the whole calculation.


In this theory, both science and religion make sense and can be combined.
Science indeed is able to fully explain our material existence, but it is the spiritual part of us that ultimately holds the greatest power.


Anyways, I am slightly drunk right now, maybe that is why I totaly understand your theory

Well, paperclip, I was sober when I came up with it, but when I put in the info about the conversation with my mom...Well...I can't say I was sober The idea is sound. Physics governs everything, yet we believe, even those that believe science is all there is to this universe and there is no creator, we have free will. I believe it was my choice to write this post. If there is no God, no designer, then it's just not true. At the beginning of the universe, it was dictated that I would write this foolish post promoting religion and free will.

All Religions has it's problems, all of them. It's creates lots of controversy and wars. But I seriously question how the US sends Christens to try and covert people of others faiths in every country they have invaded. I sometimes question people who believe in Christianity somewhat because there are many flaws in the bible. One is that there are too many different versions of it, with some different accounts. Second is that Jesus wasn't lighter skinned (white) as Christen's claim, he was in fact darker skinned (brown). I see that spreading that type of propaganda send the wrong impression of Christianity and its values. That's just plain Racists in one form and a form of deception. We should try and unite people of all faiths and not try to convert people to their personal beliefs. That contridicts your "No Religion? No Free Will" statement jungle jake. That's just my two cents.

And drinking with your mom? no offence ....but that's a little too weird for me. I drink with my gf and friends

[edit on 20-8-2005 by Darth Tinku]

Originally posted by Darth Tinku
Second is that Jesus wasn't lighter skinned (white) as Christen's claim, he was in fact darker skinned (brown). I see that spreading that type of propaganda send the wrong impression of Christianity and its values. That's just plain Racists in one form and a form of deception.

can you show me where Christians claim Jesus was white? Do you have any links backing this up?

Originally posted by Amuk

can you show me where Christians claim Jesus was white? Do you have any links backing this up?

Well this has been around for a long, long time Amuk......

Why do we think Christ was white?
news.bbc.co.uk...

So what colour was Jesus
news.bbc.co.uk...


If you do a search on google you will find a lot more

[edit on 20-8-2005 by Darth Tinku]

[edit on 20-8-2005 by Darth Tinku]

Originally posted by Darth Tinku
Well this has been around for a long, long time Amuk......

I didnt ask did artists paint him as white I ask did the CHURCH claim he was white, that is after all what you are claiming, right?

Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by Darth Tinku
Well this has been around for a long, long time Amuk......

I didnt ask did artists paint him as white I ask did the CHURCH claim he was white, that is after all what you are claiming, right?

Well if you Read the articles it will answer your questions, that why I provided the links as you asked. And where do you think people will get an impression of how he looks, from a photograph 2000 years ago?

BBC - Why do we think Christ was white?
"Images of his face were everywhere, in churches, homes, and on portable altarpieces belonging to rich merchants and diplomats."

and the BBC said they portrayed him as a light skinned person, meaning white, not brown. I'm just telling you what a reputable sources (BBC) has given to everyone.

That's just my opinion, which everyone is allowed to have, provided with proof, as I have done.




[edit on 20-8-2005 by Darth Tinku]

Er...I'm sorry, Amuk, I respect you a lot, but what the hell does Jesus being white have to do with free will?

So you dont have any links of the church claiming he is white as you stated then?

If your arguement is that he has been painted as white for most of history then OK, but what you claimed is the the CHRISTIANS CLAIM HE IS WHITE and I have never heard this, other then from a few White Supremists sites.

I havent seen you supply any links claiming it either.

Originally posted by junglejake
An athiest does not believe we have a soul or something more

What are you talking about, I have athiest friends who are from Europe and they just believe in the natural order of life (science).

Originally posted by junglejake
Er...I'm sorry, Amuk, I respect you a lot, but what the hell does Jesus being white have to do with free will?

Not much at all.

He brought it up I just asked him to back up his claim. Sorry about that

Yall can go back to your freewill debate

Originally posted by Amuk
So you dont have any links of the church claiming he is white as you stated then?

If your arguement is that he has been painted as white for most of history then OK, but what you claimed is the the CHRISTIANS CLAIM HE IS WHITE and I have never heard this, other then from a few White Supremists sites.

I havent seen you supply any links claiming it either.

Well than you haven't read the Articles properly then. That's YOUR point of view so don't attack me with words in BIG LETTERS. I have provided my proof, I have don't nothing wrong.

Originally posted by Darth Tinku
I have provided my proof, I have don't nothing wrong.

This is my last post on this subject since I am highjacking JJs thread.

Can you give me ONE QUOTE (sorry about the big letters:lol where the church claims Jesus was white.

Not BBC, not paintings, etc.

A church statement that he was white.

I have provided proof of a few kinds and not entitled to prove anything else, even if you don't agree.

All I'm saying Amuk is that if you want proof positive, go to any church, look at any of the depictions in painting the hang inside the Church, and ask yourself if he looks white or brown in the paintings. Those are the images people will relate to when Identifying with Jesus.

Why do we think Christ was white?
news.bbc.co.uk...

[edit on 20-8-2005 by Darth Tinku]