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OP/ED: The Face of American Grief

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posted on Aug, 22 2005 @ 02:19 AM
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Originally posted by goose
........................
Where is a link with a direct quote of her saying it? I think your opinions about her are based on misinformation. It can be plastered all over the tv and media but if no one has a direct quote of her saying it then I have to believe her when she says she did not say it. Where is the proof?


Let's get the full enchilada of what was said, what Sheehan claims and what she actually said.....



In her speeches and writings, Sheehan is direct and often blunt, a characteristic that has been noted by observers on both the left and right, and which Sheehan herself does not deny.[13]

There is controversy over an e-mail that Sheehan sent to ABC's Nightline allegedly containing various comments about Israel. A version of the email was posted to the "bullyard" Google group by "Tony" on March 18, 2005. [14] which allegedly states Casey "was killed for lies and for a PNAC Neo-Con agenda to benefit Israel" and he "joined the Army to protect America, not Israel." Sheehan claims that the email was modified by James Morris to support his own personal agenda. [15] [16] However, James Morris denies altering the email before sending it along to Nightline. And two other individuals, Tony Tersch and Skeeter Gallagher, received a copy of Sheehan's email directly from her. It was Tersch who posted the email he received to the "bullyard" Google group. [17] Sheehan gave a speech to the Veterans for Peace convention stating, "You get America out of Iraq, you get Israel out of Palestine".


Excerpted from.
en.wikipedia.org...

I am sure you won't try to proclaim that Wikipedia is a "pro-bush" site....

Anyways, here is a transcript of what she said about Israel from one of the liberal sites...


You get America out of Iraq, you get Israel out of Palestine


Excerpted from.
www.veteransforpeace.org...

You can find it a bit further down half that page.



Originally posted by goose
I am well aware that the There are a lot of mothers who have lost sons in this war joining her and many people speaking out against this war and have been from the beginning and their only agenda has been to stop the war. And all those who have spoken out from the beginning have been proven right. [edit on 21-8-2005 by goose]


They have been proven right?.....about what?.....

I also know a whole bunch of people who disagree with Sheehan and they also had loved ones die in Iraq. i also know that most of Sheehan's family, including the father of the dead soldier said that their son was in favour of the war and president Bush, despite what some people keep claiming.


[edit on 22-8-2005 by Muaddib]



Ox

posted on Aug, 22 2005 @ 05:09 PM
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If I may be so bold to say.. that.. ALL of these people knew that the Bushling was going to go to war, The only person who didnt know he was going to go to war was Santa Claus. And it's probably safe to say that atleast 20% of these people voted for the Bushling during one of the two elections, Now I know what someone is going to say that "People change their minds" Well they should have changed their minds before they voted for a war monger who isnt worried about how many soldiers are killed and how many families are destroyed.. he cares about getting more MONEY!.. Being that much more rich at the sake of a few human lives.. Yes.. that is the president and he should be made to go to war if he likes it so much.. Put down the pretzels Dubbya and pick up a rifle and do something for a change..


I hope I havent offended anyone.. And I hope people see my rather angry point!



posted on Aug, 22 2005 @ 05:15 PM
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With all due repect:

1) If he meets her then all the other people that want to for the same or similar reasons will want to know why SHE is so special and they can't.

2) He signed up for the military, not the boy scouts. Everyone I know, including service people and their families all agree that when you sign up for the military you are risking losing your life for whatever cause the powers that be dictate. It's terribly, terribly tragic and sad when it happens, but it does.
If people arn't prepared to take that risk, they shouldnt' join. Hell people are killed in training exercies, one guy I used to know saw someone shot in the head during an exercise by accident, it happens. If your not prepared for it don't join.
Tough if people don't like why the army are fighting, they are doing their job and if people don't want to risk it they don't have to join up.

If it was a draft I could understand as people would not have a choice, but it's not.

When you sign up for the military, your a number - part of the machine. You perform specific tasks. People know this when they join up, it's not Butlins or a paintball game, people die, you may die - in fact there is a good chance. It's not up to you to decide if what your doing is 'right' or 'wrong' in your opinon, you follow the orders of the government. It doesn't matter if the general public don't want the war, the government are elected to make those decisions for us based on what they know (which is not and cannot be made public information). If you don't trust them to make the decision - then why the hell did you not only vote for them - but re-elect them!

Remember: Military - NOT Boy Scouts.

[edit on 22-8-2005 by AgentSmith]


Ox

posted on Aug, 22 2005 @ 05:20 PM
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I realise it's the military, and I was going to mention that they signed for service and in all reality signed their life over to the government.. But I didnt wanna come off as being too rude.. not saying you are.. just... yeah you know what I mean..

So.. That brings up this then, How many people (And you know I'm right on this) went and signed up for military service AFTER 9/11? quite a few.. Knowing that they were going to go to war.. Knowing that they were signing their lives over to a Bush.. ugh.. So.. I understand your very valid points.. I truly do and I'm agreeing with you.. But you have to admit.. That it's rather an absurd war to be fighting in the first place... There are going to be more and more extremists and terrorists each day.. just because of this war.... What is the world going to come to eventually?



posted on Aug, 22 2005 @ 09:07 PM
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Originally posted by Ox
..................
So.. That brings up this then, How many people (And you know I'm right on this) went and signed up for military service AFTER 9/11? quite a few.. Knowing that they were going to go to war.. Knowing that they were signing their lives over to a Bush.. ugh.. So.. I understand your very valid points.. I truly do and I'm agreeing with you.. But you have to admit.. That it's rather an absurd war to be fighting in the first place... There are going to be more and more extremists and terrorists each day.. just because of this war.... What is the world going to come to eventually?


There was unity in the US after 9/11. I can't remember for certain but I think people were signing up in the military forces because of 9/11. It has been in subsequent years that more people don't like seeing dead soldiers and then the campaign of the left punked a lot of people into believing their agenda.

BTW, i don't know if you have noticed the reports I gave from European countries, such as Spain, France and Germany, which all state that before the war a lot of terrorists were attacking, or trying to attack all these countries as well as other wester countries. According to those same "European reports" the war was not the reason for all those terrorist attacks. Terrorists use any reason trying to recruit more people into believing their bs propaganda of submitting the world to Islam.

Terrorists haven't stopped trying to impose their Islamic extremist view on the rest of the Muslim population and on anyone that is weak minded to believe their agenda. BTW, the US was attacked by Islamic extremists before this war. Now we are fighting most of them outside the US and outside of Europe, in their own countries. That is a lot better than having all these morons attack western cities.

[edit on 22-8-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 12:54 AM
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Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by goose
........................
Where is a link with a direct quote of her saying it? I think your opinions about her are based on misinformation. It can be plastered all over the tv and media but if no one has a direct quote of her saying it then I have to believe her when she says she did not say it. Where is the proof?


Let's get the full enchilada of what was said, what Sheehan claims and what she actually said.....

Excerpted from.
en.wikipedia.org...

I am sure you won't try to proclaim that Wikipedia is a "pro-bush" site....

Anyways, here is a transcript of what she said about Israel from one of the liberal sites...


You get America out of Iraq, you get Israel out of Palestine


Excerpted from.
www.veteransforpeace.org...

You can find it a bit further down half that page.



Originally posted by goose
I am well aware that the There are a lot of mothers who have lost sons in this war joining her and many people speaking out against this war and have been from the beginning and their only agenda has been to stop the war. And all those who have spoken out from the beginning have been proven right. [edit on 21-8-2005 by goose]


They have been proven right?.....about what?.....

I also know a whole bunch of people who disagree with Sheehan and they also had loved ones die in Iraq. i also know that most of Sheehan's family, including the father of the dead soldier said that their son was in favour of the war and president Bush, despite what some people keep claiming.


[edit on 22-8-2005 by Muaddib]

Yes I am aware she said that but not once does she say those exact words that her son died for Israel. You have proven me right thank you very much!
As for being proven right that this war was based on lies read the downing street memo. And face the facts there were no WMD's found.
Yes a lot of people supported him when they thought the lies were true that there were WMD's and still sadly some support him because they see this as not supporting the troops.



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 03:59 AM
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Originally posted by goose
...............
Yes I am aware she said that but not once does she say those exact words that her son died for Israel. You have proven me right thank you very much!


This proved you right?.....how did it prove you right?.... Israel has nothing to do with her son's death, so either she is using her son's death for her own political agenda or she blames Israel for her son's death..... It did not prove your point, it did quite the contrary.



Originally posted by goose
As for being proven right that this war was based on lies read the downing street memo. And face the facts there were no WMD's found.
Yes a lot of people supported him when they thought the lies were true that there were WMD's and still sadly some support him because they see this as not supporting the troops.


First of all, the whole world thought that Saddam had wmd, half of the world didn't want to do anything about it because they would lose money if we ousted Saddam's regime, but it does not change the fact that every intelligence agency in the world said Saddam had wmd before this war.

That first, second if the Republican administration lied, then the Democrat administration before this one, and the whole world, also lied, because pretty much everyone agreed that Saddam had wmd. People keep forgetting this mightily easy these days..... But i guess it doesn't have anything to do with someone's agenda.........

Third of all, we have the information from Iraqi and Russian defectors who all said Saddam's regime were working on wmd programs and had wmd. We know that Russian convoys left Iraq in a hurry and that former Russian military, who seem to be still under orders from the Kremlin, were given medals right before the war started for their work in Iraq.

We know for a fact that Saddam lied several times. In the late 1990s an Iraqi defector told us that Saddam was working still in wmd and had wmd. Weapons inspectors found discrepancies and then scientist working for Saddam admitted that they were working in wmd programs.

Let's see what the IAEA reported....


The only IAEA visits to Iraq since Saddam kicked U.N. inspectors out in late 1998 have been two brief trips to verify the amount and status of Iraq’s declared stocks of natural and low-enriched uranium.[2] However, there have been troubling indications over the last two years that Saddam’s nuclear-weapons program has not only survived, but been reinvigorated. In a speech televised in Baghdad last September, Saddam told his nuclear energy officials that “the battle is your battle,” that Iraq’s enemies “will be defeated when their losses will be as huge as the gains they had hoped to achieve,” and that “the Nuclear Energy [Association] has a big duty in this field.”[3] Salman Zweir worked for 13 years as an engineer for the Iraqi Atomic Energy Commission before defecting to the West in late 1998. Zweir, who worked on the centrifuge uranium enrichment program, claims that Saddam recalled him and many other technical personnel to the nuclear-weapons program in the fall of 1998. Zweir refused, was imprisoned and tortured, and eventually escaped to the West.


Excerpted from.
www.nci.org...

Many times have we discussed this in these same forums and time and time again some members and myself have presented evidence that the whole world, not just the US, knew as a certainty that Saddam had wmd.

I believe what the defectors from both Iraq and Russia say. That Iraq had wmd programs and wmd. The Russians provided such materials and they even had plans (Sarindar) on how to move or get rid of the wmd while hiding documents needed to renew the wmd programs once the west stopped looking for them.

So next time you claim someone was lying about wmd, you better blame the whole world, because the US was not the only one who said this.....


[edit on 23-8-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 12:22 PM
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The reports are that she said specifically that her son died for Israel, in those words, that is not what she said. so yes you have proven me right.

Secondly the scientists involved repeatedly told Bush and company that the tubes in question that Saddam had were too small and too thick to be used for WMD's and that he could not possibly be using them to make WMD's and still the powers that be in Washington at the time continued to say the tubes were bing used for WMD's. So yes I agree with you that we were told over and over that there were WMD's and I recall seeing and hearing it on the news at the time, but not one word about a report saying otherwise from scientists who would know more about the size of a proper tube needed for the WMD's program. We were at the very least IMO misled by the ones wanting to go to war, the truth is the people talking about the size of the tubes being wrong for WMD's were the ones who should know better than anyone what they were talking about but we were never told about their reports when the powers that be were promoting war.

www.cbsnews.com...
www.cnn.com...

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Saddam Hussein did not possess stockpiles of illicit weapons at the time of the U.S. invasion in March 2003 and had not begun any program to produce them, a CIA report concludes.

In fact, the long-awaited report, authored by Charles Duelfer, who advises the director of central intelligence on Iraqi weapons, says Iraq's WMD program was essentially destroyed in 1991 and Saddam ended Iraq's nuclear program after the 1991 Gulf War.

The Iraq Survey Group report, released Wednesday, is 1,200 to 1,500 pages long.

The massive report does say, however, that Iraq worked hard to cheat on United Nations-imposed sanctions and retain the capability to resume production of weapons of mass destruction at some time in the future.

"[Saddam] wanted to end sanctions while preserving the capability to reconstitute his weapons of mass destruction when sanctions were lifted," a summary of the report says.

Duelfer, testifying at a Senate hearing on the report, said his account attempts to describe Iraq's weapons programs "not in isolation but in the context of the aims and objectives of the regime that created and used them."

"I also have insisted that the report include as much basic data as reasonable and that it be unclassified, since the tragedy that has been Iraq has exacted such a huge cost for so many for so long," Duelfer said.

The report was released nearly two years ago to the day that President Bush strode onto a stage in Cincinnati and told the audience that Saddam Hussein's Iraq "possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons" and "is seeking nuclear weapons."

msnbcmedia.msn.com...&%20Security/041006_CIA_WMD_Report_Key_Findings.pdf


Ox

posted on Aug, 24 2005 @ 03:46 PM
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There was unity in the US after 9/11. I can't remember for certain but I think people were signing up in the military forces because of 9/11. It has been in subsequent years that more people don't like seeing dead soldiers and then the campaign of the left punked a lot of people into believing their agenda.

BTW, i don't know if you have noticed the reports I gave from European countries, such as Spain, France and Germany, which all state that before the war a lot of terrorists were attacking, or trying to attack all these countries as well as other wester countries. According to those same "European reports" the war was not the reason for all those terrorist attacks. Terrorists use any reason trying to recruit more people into believing their bs propaganda of submitting the world to Islam.

Terrorists haven't stopped trying to impose their Islamic extremist view on the rest of the Muslim population and on anyone that is weak minded to believe their agenda. BTW, the US was attacked by Islamic extremists before this war. Now we are fighting most of them outside the US and outside of Europe, in their own countries. That is a lot better than having all these morons attack western cities.

[edit on 22-8-2005 by Muaddib]

You're right.. there was Unity in the USA after 9/11.. But every gung ho hill jack that had their daddy teach them to shoot when they were old enough to walk went out and joined.. There's nothing wrong with that.. but by fighting these "terrorists" they are creating more and more of them.. Would you fight for what you believed in? Yes.. yes you would.. and this is what these people believe .. that Dubbya is nothing more than a common dictator.. which is true. He's trying to steal these peoples livelyhood and beliefs.. which is true, by drafting a constitution FOR these people, and stealing their oil.. That's bush's agenda.. IF there is to be control and the USA IS to be the primary superpower in the world then dubbya needs these people and their extreme ways to FIGHT WITH HIM.. not against him. And they know that and want nothing to do with it.. Besides.. "terrorism" is as common in the middle east as street crime is in the USA..




posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 12:50 AM
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Originally posted by Ox

You're right.. there was Unity in the USA after 9/11.. But every gung ho hill jack that had their daddy teach them to shoot when they were old enough to walk went out and joined.. There's nothing wrong with that..


Great to know that you don't have any respect for those people that are/have been fighting for you.....and yes, they have been fighting for you...



Originally posted by Ox
but by fighting these "terrorists" they are creating more and more of them.. Would you fight for what you believed in? Yes.. yes you would.. and this is what these people believe ..


Islamic terrorist have been attacking us for some time now, even before the war started.



Originally posted by Ox
that Dubbya is nothing more than a common dictator.. which is true.


You have no idea what a dictatorship is when you made that ridiculous claim. In a dictatorship you wouldn't be able to spout any dissent against those in power.


Originally posted by Ox
He's trying to steal these peoples livelyhood and beliefs.. which is true, by drafting a constitution FOR these people, and stealing their oil..


Noone is trying to steal these people livelihood, and it is the government in Iraq the one drafting the constitution, a government which was chosen by the people in Iraq not by the US.



Originally posted by Ox
That's bush's agenda.. IF there is to be control and the USA IS to be the primary superpower in the world then dubbya needs these people and their extreme ways to FIGHT WITH HIM.. not against him.


President Bush agenda is to attack terrorists where they live, not wait for them to attack us again and fight them in US soil. I say we go to their homes and fight them there. It is a lot better than fighting them here or in any city in Europe. The rest of your post is nothing but your own wild claims, nothing more.


[edit on 25-8-2005 by Muaddib]



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