Who lived where first ?

Here goes my PO on this "who lived there first", fashion that has been goin on in the news, and across the web.

I'm referring to the Gaza stipr situation. There are people that debate The Israelis ocupied that land... there are those who say the Land always belonged to the Israeli people. I also know there is a great thread, fruit of an ATS team, that is researching exactly on this metter... "who lived thre first". But that is not my point ...

I think everyone knows that from the begining of the times, there have been tribes, Clans, Natins that have ocupied others territories... some of the ocupied people faught and won back their land, others didnt. And Geography maps have changed across the times, without anyone really making much of a fuss about the sitaution.

But for some reason when it comes to Israel it becomes world news, and the Wordl ( UN/USA) agrees that "we must kick the Jews outta there"...

my question is WHY?

Why does it only metter when it is against the Jewish people?

When will the USA, return Hawai, New Mexico, and Texas to the people that lived there before ?

And for that metter, when will the USA evacute all of American citizens and return the territory to their primary resident, The American Native?

When will Spain return the chunck of Portugal they occupied centuries ago ?

When will the Muslem nations stop the occupation of Suddan ???

Do I need to go on ?

Is anyone getting my point ?

The thing is EVERY SINGLE country in this Planet, at some point in history, at some time has stolen, occupied, Liberated...(whatever you wanna call it) a piece of Land from someone else.

So why is it that only the Jewish people have to return anything... when for that matter people cant even come to an agreemnet to who lived there fist to start with.

The Palestine people had no problem beeing "occupied" by Syria... but for some odd *wink, wink* reason, when it come to "THE JEW"... DAMN !!! "Kick'em outta there".

It is so obvious this is a religion situation that has nothing to do with Land, because lets face it... everyone ... either Jews or Palestinians have been living their lifes with no problem ( Except for the "Holy" suicide bombers).
If it had anything to do with Land, why would the Jewsih people be ordered to leave their food behind?

Did any Palestinian died of lack of Oxygen for not living at the Gaza Strip ? NO

ALL under the excuse that "we need to negictae with terrorists, to achieve Peace"... Well i thought that was what this goverment was against ... I thought That Pres. Bush, Hillary clinton, John Keryy... the all bunch beleive that "WE CANNOT NEGOCIATE WITH TERRORISM" ?? Am I worng?

And all of this for what??? The Palestinian leaders have not even moved in to the Gaza Strip, and thier leaders already stated, "this is only the begginin, next comes Israel" .

The FOURTH REICH is happening right before everyone's eyes, yet people are more concerend to know who lived there first ?

Who first lived in the are now known as the USA ? Should The American Goverment follow its own example ? The American Citizens should all be evacuated from this territory so it can be returned to their Original resident...Same goes with Canada.... everyone knows the Native Indians lived here forst...Start the EVACUATION OF THE OCCUPIERS !

This has to do with RELIGIN not GEOGRAPHY... and America is ADVOCATING the FORUTH REICH... this time not by Hitler, but by Msulims.

Soes anyone even care ?? I doubt it......................

Well the Palestinian case is not so much that Israel itself exists, but that in wars the Israels have illegally occupied and settled land with the idea of creating a biblical Greater Israel.

This upsets Palestinians living in this occupied land because they see all the best farming grounds and water sources being given to settlers, while they are shot at and left destitute by Israeli policies on freedom of movement.

Originally posted by Uncle Joe
Well the Palestinian case is not so much that Israel itself exists, but that in wars the Israels have illegally occupied and settled land .....

Isnt that how the USA came to be... by illegally occupying land that was not theirs?

Well yes, but that was nearly 300 years ago, tje world is a different place now, and Israel would be doing the world a great favour by withdrawing entirely from the occupied territories and leaving the Palestinians to sink or swim.

and because it was 300 years ago its all good ?? what about the ocupation in Suddan ...its going on right now ...no one seems to bother... hey what the heck they are only exterminating a bunch of black Christians , right ?? who cares.,.. black Christians, Indians and Jews...

dont get me wrong here,.... I am simply saying... that if IUsarela has to reutn land... than EVERYONE has to return land... it doesnt metter if it was 5 days ago, 30 years ago, 300...start returning...time is not an excuse.

Why does it only metter when it is against the Jewish people?

Huh??

The UN and US are largely responsible for giving Isreal Proper to the Jews of the World. Then that state expanded into a few occupied territories, and this has resulted in the destabilization of the middle east. The palestinians are supported only in the interests of re-stabilization.

Umm, time is an excuse.

I dont see the USA willingly dismantlign thousands of towns and cities that have been growing for centuries and returnig to Europe!

However the settlements in the West Bank are small and easily dismantled and removed, as the Gaza clearance shows.

As for the Sudan i dont know enough about whats going on to comment.

Pretty much Baastet, but smallpox makes a far more effective weapon than rocks, apparently.

I do get the point of your post.

I can't say I agree completely, if only because I perceive it to be not as simple as Palestine only having a problem being occupied by Jews; nor do I see it as it being a case of the US advocating a Fourth Reich situation.

The area has been the centre of warring factions for centuries (if not millenia) - I know you're not asking for information specifically, so forgive me for adding this link anyway History of Palestine .

I'm really suprised that people believe this has to do with Geography... maybe I AM Paranoid... but I believe that it has to do with RACE, RELIGION and the next attempt of repression oand extermination of the Jewsih people...Like the Palestinian Leader said " Israel is next".

Easy for you tosay its easy to dismantle a setlement when your home is not in it.

Its ridiculous...simply ridiculous...and people are bying into it, just like they bought into Hitler's crap.

I get BaastetNoir's point and I think it is an excellent one.

Uncle Joe seems to be implying that there is some kind of "statute of limitations" applying to conquered lands.

One thing that should not be forgotten is the muslim concept that any land that was once under their control and lost must be recovered at all costs. This means that a palestinian state will not bring peace to the region as the palestinians will simply set their sights on "recovering" the rest of Israel's territory. BTW, this concept means that countries like Spain and Portugal are also "lost muslim territories".


[edit on 8/17/2005 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by BaastetNoir

But for some reason when it comes to Israel it becomes world news, and the Wordl ( UN/USA) agrees that "we must kick the Jews outta there"...

my question is WHY?

Why does it only metter when it is against the Jewish people?

When will the USA, return Hawai, New Mexico, and Texas to the people that lived there before ?

If the people of Hawaii, New Mexico or Texas launched an insurgency to demand independence, the rest of the world might take notice and take a position in favor or against independence for those regions. Just as they did with Croatia and Bosnia.

Originally posted by AceOfBase
[

If the people of Hawaii, New Mexico or Texas launched an insurgency to demand independence, the rest of the world might take notice and take a position in favor or against independence for those regions. Just as they did with Croatia and Bosnia.


yep and we can do it back to those nations who have conquered those territories as well, back at them!!!! in anicase it will jus backfire for them. truly.

Heck, maybe the US can make a claim to get back bonnie old England!

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
Easy for you tosay its easy to dismantle a setlement when your home is not in it.

The israelis occupied that land in the course of a war. A gurreilla war started against israel from the people occupied. Now, in hopes of ending that war, the occupied land is being given back. It is certianly no harder for the israelis to give up their homes than it was for the palestinians.

Its ridiculous...simply ridiculous...and people are bying into it, just like they bought into Hitler's crap.

I really fail to see how this is at all similar. The gaza strip is an occupied terroritory, not really part of israel. I'm all for the israelis keeping it and the west bank, but it looks like israel has decided that its simply not worth it, and they've opted to abandon it. The government brought the current settlers in, and now the government is bringing them out. Might be better to let them stay and evacuate the military, and then let the palestinians and the settlers fight it out, but that'd probably just end up with egypt or jordan invading or something.

centurio1211
One thing that should not be forgotten is the muslim concept that any land that was once under their control and lost must be recovered at all costs.

Chapter? Verse?? I know that there is something like that, but I am not so sure that its that solidly stated. And I don't think its a requirement of the religion itself, just a commonsense rule for any peoples.

This means that a palestinian state will not bring peace to the region as the palestinians will simply set their sights on "recovering" the rest of Israel's territory

I think that they will too, but I don't think it has anything to do with any Qurranic verses. The palestinians want their whole country back. I say, screw 'em, they lost the war, but I don't think we need the koran to expect them to not settle with that reason.

BTW, this concept means that countries like Spain and Portugal are also "lost muslim territories".

Only for radicals that interpret it that way. Hell, spain and portugal are lost muslim territories. The muslims also held parts of France, and if it weren't for The Hammer then all of europe would probably be muslims. Heck, they got all the way to Vienna in the east.

And notice, Turkey doesn't make any claims on macedonia or serbia and the like. Most muslims don't seem to bother with any charge that they 'defend their homeland' and take it to mean everywhere. Heck when teh koran was written the 'islamic homeland' was only part of arabia no?

BaastetNoir -

Great post - You get a "Way Above" vote from me.

Uncle Joe -

Do you really believe that the islamic terrorists living in the Gaza strip will be satisfied? I watch Ariel Sharon in these speeches and all I can think is that he is the modern Neville Chamberlain (sp?) proclaiming, "Peace in our time!" And this barriers Israel has been building is nothing more than the next "maginot line."

The thing about Israel in the holy books is mentioned. When the first WW ended, Britain became responsible for Iraq, Palestine, and Tanzania. So what happened is the British took away what was presently known as "Palestine" and made it a free nation for the Jews in the second WW. Since then nearly 60 years ago, there has been problems between the Israelis and Palestinians. And now as we speak, Sharon has sent his army to take out the Israelis that live in the Gaza strip that already belong to the Palestinians. So, if anyone wants to be angry-be angry at Sharon and his government.

What saddens me is how the whole world makes such a big deal about Hitler and the killing of 6 million Jews. Everyone seems to forget everything else. Not that it’s not important, people were killed and that’s sad. What people forget is the 62 million people that were killed in the previous USSR under Stalin, it was a DEMOCIDE. Or how people forget the millions of Christians that were killed during the Roman times and even during the reign of the Ottoman Turks. My list of millions of people being killed could go on forever, from Rwanda, Cambodia, East Timor, Gautemala, Yugoslavia, and so on… Everyone seems to make only a big deal about the Jews, have you guys forgotten everyone else?

Supposedly thousands of years ago the Jews lived in Egypt under Ramses II, so maybe they should go back to Egypt and claim it as Israel too, because Sinai mountain is in Egypt… I mean this is ridiculous. I think people make a big deal about everything, let’s not forget Sudan. Oh I forgot, there’s no oil there…

d3vilishan9el...

It's not that people aren't remembering the millions (billions?) killed during various atrocities.

It's just that certain conflicts have received more attention, in no small part due to rapidly increasing media coverage.

100 years ago there was no such thing as mass media.

50 years ago the media was still somewhat limited.

Today?

Well, we can see what today brings us in terms of media.

Not everyone has forgotten those victims though.

(sidebar: Where's the cut-off point? Where are we drawing the line between "you were the original occupiers" and "you were the first conquesting occupiers, therefore it's yours"? Are we drawing a line at all? If we're not, does that mean that the first civilizations in any region - and thus their descendants - would be the only legal occupiers? Doesn't that mean that because we can all find common ancestry we should all just share the land?)

Originally posted by d3vilishan9el
The thing about Israel in the holy books is mentioned. When the first WW ended, Britain became responsible for Iraq, Palestine, and Tanzania. So what happened is the British took away what was presently known as "Palestine" and made it a free nation for the Jews in the second WW.

The British actually abstained from the United Nations vote that partitioned Palestine and created the seperate Arab and Jewish states.

Josh i dont think it matters of every extremist in Palestine is satisfied, again it doenst matter if every fundamentalist loony in Israel is happy.

The way the middle East is shifting now Egypt and Syria and Jordan will all accept Israels position, providing that they withdraw to the 1967 borders. This will be acompanied by an end to funding Hezzbulla (sp) and other terrorist groups, without this funding they cant operate.

Iran may well be astumbling block on this plan, but they are invaded then it may be less of an issue, since they wil be too busy with internal squalbles.

Israel will always have to face terrorists attacks from morons, its just something they will have to live with unfortunatly.

Originally posted by JoshGator54
BaastetNoir -

Great post - You get a "Way Above" vote from me.

Uncle Joe -

Do you really believe that the islamic terrorists living in the Gaza strip will be satisfied? I watch Ariel Sharon in these speeches and all I can think is that he is the modern Neville Chamberlain (sp?) proclaiming, "Peace in our time!" And this barriers Israel has been building is nothing more than the next "maginot line."

Thanx Johs,

and thats one of my points as well... We have soldiers dying in Iraq because " WE DO NOT NEGOCIATE WIHT TERRORISTS", yet The Jewish people is beeing forced out of their home sin order TO NEGOCIATE with terrorist... and for what ?? for nothing ! Because the Palestinian leaders already came out and said " Israel is next !"

This statement by itself should STOP the entire process, it is evidence that the problem is NOT geography, but religion and race.

And to go a step further, I knwo for a fact that the Palestinian people is not very welcome amonsgt the Arab wolrd, they are seen as a lesser people exactly for the fact that were a "nomad tribe"...they are considered the "gypies" of the Arab wolrd.

This is not about land...its about waht the Arab World calls the "Holy War"...The holy War against the Jew and the Infidel.

And that is why Hitlary clinton hasnt said one word about this, because it was in Bill clinton's plan to do the same.

Do you really think that every Arab is a frothing at the mouth loony with the Koran in one hand and an AK47 in the other?

Most people want peace and security.

The Palestinian leader actually said that the West Bank was next, not Israel. If Israel withdraws the Palestinians becoem responsible for their own fate, rather than subject to the whims of oppressors.