Proof that Freemasonry is a Religion

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posted on Aug, 17 2005 @ 12:01 AM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Always, whenever someone brings information pertinent to a certain secret society, the members of the secret society wind up saying that the person is blatantly lying and that they are merely attempting to escalate their points.
I never, ever, see any counter-information that could offest the conspiratorial information.


Apparently then you don't read every post. There are NUMEROUS posts that not only TELL the truth (regarding Freemasonry) but they actually have quotes and links, etc. to back them up. (i.e., they're not simply hearsay stated as fact as many here are so fond of doing) Using the ATS search function will turn up several such posts.



Are there any Mason members here that are 32 degree or higher?


Yep. I'm a 32nd Degree "Master of the Royal Secret"

www.srmason-sj.org...

who has also been honored by the Supreme Council of the Scottish Rite by being invested a Knight Commander of the Court of Honor:

(From the Supreme Council link given above)
"The Rank of Knight Commander of the Court of Honour is not a Degree but an Investiture bestowed upon members deserving recognition for faithful services to the Rite. The respective Sovereign Grand Inspectors General or Deputies likewise nominate members for this honor, and these must also be unanimously approved by the Supreme Council.

This Investiture is a PREREQUISITE of receiving the Thirty-third Degree at some later time, though relatively few receive this distinction. "
----------------

Please do not misunderstand. I post that NOT to brag but the K.C.C.H. is quite rarely given...so it's indication that I'm a VERY active Scottish Rite Mason.



Who is your god?


I've stated here several times. I am a Trinitarian Christian. My God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, who lives and reigns ONE God, now and forever.

Being a Mason doesn not and CAN not interfere with my Trinitarian faith...because Masonry is a FRATERNITY (i.e. BROTHERHOOD) NOT a RELIGION.

[edit on 17-8-2005 by senrak]




posted on Aug, 17 2005 @ 12:12 AM
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Originally posted by eudaimonia

[much silly rambling snipped]

When Masons assemble together, they meet in a "temple" to offer "prayers" to the "Great Architect of the Universe"; and "kneel" at the "sacred altar" to engage in their "sacred vows". On the "sacred altar" is a "Volume of Sacred Law" which can be a Bible, a Koran or any other holy book. What more could be required before an assembly could accurately be referred to as a religion?


"What more"? I'll tell you "what more" I've said it in SEVERAL posts. MORE would be if Freemasonry (LIKE RELIGIONS) offered a so-called "plan of salvation" If Freemasonry claimed to "save ones soul" If Freemasonry claimed that membership therein would "forgive ones sins" and guarantee one "passage to Heaven"

Freemasonry doesn't do that. But religions seem to, don't they? Freemasonry doesn't offer Absolution and remittance of sins...but RELIGIONS do....DON'T they?

THAT'S "what more"

'nuff said.



posted on Aug, 17 2005 @ 12:28 AM
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Master of the Royal Secret?
No, there's no reason for anyone to think that maybe there's a secret society thing going on there, huh?

Oh, yeah, it's all about handshakes. A royal one, huh? So, how is the Queen's grip, loose or firm? Wait, is that the secret? Don't tell me, lest you'll have to kill me!
How about giving me a hint and just slapping me around a bit?


Ok, I'm done. Theorists, continue doing what the site is made for, and Masons, continue offering Masonic nay-saying in response.

I'll call Dr. Kissinger back and tell him that he and his friends may come back and defend their secret clubs, too!

[edit on 17-8-2005 by Thomas Crowne]



posted on Aug, 17 2005 @ 12:42 AM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Master of the Royal Secret?
...

Oh, yeah, it's all about handshakes. A royal one, huh? So, how is the Queen's grip, loose or firm? Wait, is that the secret? Don't tell me, lest you'll have to kill me!
How about giving me a hint and just slapping me around a bit?



TC, isn't there some liberal tree hugger that needs to be re-educated on the virtues of large displacement internal combustion engines, coupled with ridiculously stratospheric suspension systems while providing a comfortable resting place for a precision ballistic implement blessed with stunning downrange terminal characteristics?... Somewhere else?

I’m a 32nd SRSJ, and a Master of the Royal Secret (the Queen is a grand old gal), lean closer…



Tight Lipped Monkeys, not just for the Queen's shoe size anymore…


[edit on 17/8/2005 by Mirthful Me]



posted on Aug, 17 2005 @ 12:49 AM
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What?!? You people have infiltrated the very deepest of ATS recesses?


My goodness, you people really are at the very pinnacles of power everywhere! Even at the very top of the internet, in the secret realms of the ultimate conspiracy board!

How did this happen?



posted on Aug, 17 2005 @ 07:55 AM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne


Are there any Mason members here that are 32 degree or higher?


Yes.


Who is your god?


Clapton.



posted on Aug, 17 2005 @ 10:13 AM
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Originally posted by eudaimonia

Originally posted by The Axeman
Masonry is not a religion; one adheres to whatever faith one adhered to before one became a Mason. Pretty simple.


Oh, that chestnut again?


That’s funny... Someone just said that... OH! It was me!



Expain this:


I’ll try, but judging from your track record you won't get it.



1. The Opinion of Freemasonry's Authorities

Freemasonry is a religion. While those who want to be active in both Freemasonry and the Church may argue otherwise, the fact that Freemasonry is a religion is asserted by Freemasonry's own and most widely accepted authorities:


Let’s see what Masons say about who their “authorities” are...


from: www.srmason-sj.org...

Rev. Ankerberg and Dr. Weldon want their readers to believe that their work is objective. To assist them in this illusion they explain that they (or their research associates) wrote the following question to the Grand Master of each of the fifty American Grand Lodges, "As an official Masonic leader, which books and authors do you recommend as being authoritative on the subject of Freemasonry?"

Twenty-five Grand Masters responded, each recommending several Masonic authors. Topping the list were nine names. Henry Coil led the list with the recommendation of 11 of the Grand Lodges, while Albert Pike was recommended by only 4 of them. In other words, forty-six Grand Masters (92%) had no comments on Pike.


Yeah. authorities.
Respected authors, yes. Authorities? Not so much. Be that as it may, I shall nevertheless try to elucidate you on the issue at hand, as I understand it.


by eudaimonia

Albert Mackey, Encyclopedia of Freemasonry:

"The religion of Freemasonry is not sectarian. It admits men of every creed within its hospitable bosom, rejecting none and approving none for his peculiar faith. It is not Judaism, though there is nothing in it to offend the Jew; it is not Christianity, but there is nothing in it repugnant to the faith of a Christian. Its religion is that general one of nature and primitive revelation handed down to us from some ancient and patriarchial priesthood--in which all men may agree and in which no men can differ." (Page 641)


Alright but let’s look at the passage just before that one, eh?


From Albert Mackey’s Encyclopedia of Freemasonry

Now, it is plain that, in either of the first three senses in which we may take the word religion (and they do not very materially differ from each other), Masonry may rightfully claim to be called a religious institution. Closely and accurately examined, it will be found to answer to any one of the requirements of either of these three definitions. So much does it 'include a belief in the being and perfections of God,' that the public profession of such a faith is essentially necessary to gain admission into the Order. No disbeliever in the existence of God can be made a Mason... But it must be confessed that the fourth definition does not appear to be strictly applicable to Masonry. It has no pretension to assume a place among the religions of the world as a sectarian 'system of faith and worship,' in the sense in which we distinguish Christianity from Judaism, or Judaism from Mohammedanism. In this meaning of the word we do not and can not speak of the Masonic religion, nor say of a man that he is not a Christian, but a Mason. Here it is that the opponents of Freemasonry have assumed mistaken ground, in confounding the idea of a religious institution with that of the Christian religion as a peculiar form of worship, and in supposing, because Masonry teaches religious truth, that it is offered as a substitute for Christian truth and Christian obligation...The tendency of all true Masonry is toward religion. if it makes any progress, its progress is to that holy end. Look at its ancient landmarks, its sublime ceremonies, its profound symbols and allegories---all inculcating observance, and teaching religious truth, and who can deny that it is eminently a religious institution?

[...]

"But the religion of Masonry is not sectarian. It admits men of every creed within its hospitable bosom, rejecting none and approving none for his peculiar faith. It is not Judaism, though there is nothing in it to offend a Jew; it is not Christianity, but there is nothing in it repugnant to the faith of a Christian. Its religion is that general one of nature and primitive revelation---handed down to us from some ancient and patriarchal priesthood---in which all men may agree and in which no men can differ. It inculcates the practise of virtue but it supplies no scheme of redemption for sin. It points its disciples to the path of righteousness, but it does not claim to be 'the way, the truth, and the life.' In so far, therefore, it cannot become a substitute for Christianity, but its tendency is thitherward; and, as the handmaid of religion, it may, and often does, act as the porch that introduces it votaries into the temple of Divine truth.
Masonry, then, is, indeed a religious institution; and on this ground mainly, if not alone, should the religious Mason defend it."


Hmmmmm... kinda shoots a few holes in your little theory there, eh?

Let us continue, shall we?



by eudaimonia

Henry Wilson Coil, Masonic Encyclopedia:
"Freemasonry has a religious service to commit the body of a deceased brother to the dust whence it came and to speed the liberated spirit back to the great Source of Light. Many Freemasons make this flight with no other guarantee of a safe landing than their belief in the religion of Freemasonry."


Wow. Neato. Check this out though.


from: Coil's Masonic Encyclopedia p. 522.

"In closing this dissertation on an important subject, one on which opinions may differ widely, it must be concluded that no matter how filled we may be with religious fervor, we must give up any idea that Freemasonry was intended to be another religious sect and that, containing as it does a large proportion of men who have already espoused some church or denomination, any such career would be plagued by internal discord or submerged in the large number of existing sects. On the other hand, Freemasonry, as a universal moral society open to all men of good report and intentions, has performed and will continue to perform a valuable and necessary function in the world."


Well, there ya go. Not a religion. What a shocker.


by eudaimonia

Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma:

"It [Masonry] reverences all the great reformers. It sees Moses, Confucius, Zoroaster, Jesus of Nazareth, ... Great Teachers of Morality, and Eminent Reformers, if no more: and allows every brother of the Order to assign to each such higher and even Divine Character as his Creed and Truth require." (Page 525).


You are really good at selective quoting, you know that?



from: Morals and Dogma, pp. 525-26

To every Mason, the Infinite Justice and Benevolence of God give ample assurance that Evil will ultimately be dethroned, and the Good, the True, and the Beautiful reign triumphant and eternal. It teaches, as it feels and knows, that Evil, and Pain, and Sorrow exist as part of a wise and beneficent plan, all the parts of which work together under God's eye to a result which shall be perfection. Whether the existence of evil is rightly explained in this creed or in that, by Typhon the Great Serpent, by Ahriman and his Armies of Wicked Spirits, by the Giants and Titans that war against Heaven, by the two co-existent Principles of Good and Evil, by Satan's temptation and the fall of Man, by Lok and the Serpent Fenris, it is beyond the domain of Masonry to decide, nor does it need to inquire. Nor is it within its Province to determine how the ultimate triumph of Light and Truth and Good, over Darkness and Error and Evil, is to be achieved; nor whether the Redeemer, looked and longed for by all nations, hath appeared in Judea, or is yet to come.

It reverences all the great reformers. It sees in Moses, the Lawgiver of the Jews, in Confucius and Zoroaster, in Jesus of Nazareth, and in the Arabian Iconoclast, Great Teachers of Morality, and Eminent Reformers, if no more: and allows every brother of the Order to assign to each such higher and even Divine Character as his Creed and Truth require.

Thus Masonry disbelieves no truth, and teaches unbelief in no creed, except so far as such creed may lower its lofty estimate of the Deity, degrade Him to the level of the passions of humanity, deny the high destiny of man, impugn the goodness and benevolence of the Supreme God, strike at those great columns of Masonry, Faith, Hope, and Charity, or inculcate immorality, and disregard of the active duties of the Order.

Masonry is a worship; but one in which all civilized men can unite; for it does not undertake to explain or dogmatically to settle those great mysteries, that are above the feeble comprehension of our human intellect. It trusts in God, and HOPES; it BELIEVES, like a child, and is humble. It draws no sword to compel others to adopt its belief, or to be happy with its hopes. And it WAITS with patience to understand the mysteries of Nature and Nature's God hereafter.


What that says to me is that Masonry is indeed NOT a religion in the sense that you put forth, rather that it is a principle, as I presented in my previous post in this thread, which you so conveniently ignored.




by eudaimonia

"Masonry, around whose altars the Christian, the Hebrew, the Moslem, the Brahman, the followers of Confucius and Zoroaster, can assemble as brethren and unite in prayer to the one God who is above all the Baalim, must needs leave it to each of its initiates to look for the foundation of his faith and hope to the written scriptures of his own religion." (Page 226)




from: Morals and Dogma, pp. 225-26

The Mason believes that God has arranged this glorious but perplexing world with a purpose, and on a plan. He holds that every man sent upon this earth, and especially every man of superior capacity, has a duty to perform, a mission to fulfill, a baptism to be baptized with; that every great and good man possesses some portion of God's truth, which he must proclaim to the world, and which must bear fruit in his own bosom. In a true and simple sense, he believes all the pure, wise, and intellectual to be inspired, and to be so for the instruction, advancement, and elevation of mankind. That kind of inspiration, like God's omnipresence, is not limited to the few writers claimed by Jews, Christians, or Moslems, but is co-extensive with the race. It is the consequence of a faithful use of our faculties. Each man is its subject, God is its source, and Truth its only test. It differs in degrees, as the intellectual endowments, the moral wealth of the soul, and the degree of cultivation of those endowments and faculties differ. It is limited to no sect, age, or nation. It is wide as the world and common as God. It was not given to a few men, in the infancy of mankind, to monopolize inspiration, and bar God out of the soul. We are not born in the dotage and decay of the world. The stars are beautiful as in their prime; the most ancient Heavens are fresh and strong. God is still everywhere in nature. Wherever a heart beats with love, wherever Faith and Reason utter their oracles, there is God, as formerly in the hearts of seers and prophets. No soil on earth is so holy as the good man's heart; nothing is so full of God. This inspiration is not given to the learned alone, not alone to the great and wise, but to every faithful child of God. Certain as the open eye drinks in the light, do the pure in heart see God; and he who lives truly, feels Him as a presence within the soul. The conscience is the very voice of Deity.

Masonry, around whose altars the Christian, the Hebrew, the Moslem, the Brahmin, the followers of Confucius and Zoroaster, can assemble as brethren and unite in prayer to the one God who is above all the Baalim, must needs leave it to each of its Initiates to look for the foundation of his faith and hope to the written scriptures of his own religion. For itself it finds those truths definite enough, which are written by the finger of God upon the heart of man and on the pages of the book of nature. Views of religion and duty, wrought out by the meditations of the studious, confirmed by the allegiance of the good and wise, stamped as sterling by the response they find in every uncorrupted mind, commend themselves to Masons of every creed, and may well be accepted by all.

The Mason does not pretend to dogmatic certainty, nor vainly imagine such certainty attainable. He considers that if there were no written revelation, he could safely rest the hopes that animate him and the principles that guide him, on the deductions of reason and the convictions of instinct and consciousness. He can find a sure foundation for his religious belief, in these deductions of the intellect and convictions of the heart. For reason proves to him the existence and attributes of God; and those spiritual instincts which he feels are the voice of God in his soul, infuse into his mind a sense of his relation to God, a conviction of the beneficence of his Creator and Preserver, and a hope of future existence; and his reason and conscience alike unerringly point to virtue as the highest good, and the destined aim and purpose of man's life.



by eudaimonia

The above statements from authorities accepted and approved by Freemasonry clearly document that Freemasonry is a religion and is considered as such by knowledgeable Masons.


No, it shows your ability to copy and paste what suits your agenda, while leaving out those passages that speak to the contrary. Great work. Really.



When Masons assemble together, they meet in a "temple" to offer "prayers" to the "Great Architect of the Universe"; and "kneel" at the "sacred altar" to engage in their "sacred vows". On the "sacred altar" is a "Volume of Sacred Law" which can be a Bible, a Koran or any other holy book. What more could be required before an assembly could accurately be referred to as a religion?


Plan of salvation? Standardized for of worship? Common belief in ONE specific Deity above all others? Condemnation of all other faiths? Televangelists? Communion? Clergy? The belief that it is their Divine Right (or even duty) to kill members of opposing faiths based solely on their different beliefs? Proselytizing? Lunatics telling everyone that their religion is wrong, and people should buy their books or tapes or videos to prove it?

I dunno, I think they do just fine without all that, and I think it has been reasonable demonstrated by me (not to mention others) that Freemasonry is NOT a religion.

You have the floor...



posted on Aug, 17 2005 @ 10:44 AM
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Men draw themselves towards freemasonry to obtain the perception of owning godly powers/knowledge above all. A secret society containing rituals, altars, worshipful masters, hierarchy, symbolism, paganism and the segregation of the female gender is not a religion?

Freemasons wish to be gods amongst men, and it remains as simple as that... make note that that comment is geared towards the elite masons, the recruitment grounds for the illuminati objective to enslave mankind.

hehehe..



posted on Aug, 17 2005 @ 10:48 AM
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Originally posted by No1tovote4
One can worship whomever they wish so long as they believe that their Deity created the Universe.


Maybe this is a sticky semantics issue, but I was curious about the technicality.

Does a Mason need to believe in a "Creator Deity" (as in a personification rather than an abstraction) rather than, say, a "primordial creative force" which is perhaps a bit more impersonal but still, by its nature, is generative and is responsible for the apparent "animation" of life?

I'm having a hard time articulating my question the way I want it to come across.

I guess what I mean is does the "Higher Power" or "Supreme Being" have to be a distinctly separate, individualized entity to qualify as fulfilling this requirement of membership?

Does that make sense?

Thanks in advance.



posted on Aug, 17 2005 @ 10:53 AM
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Originally posted by syntaxer
Men draw themselves towards freemasonry to obtain the perception of owning godly powers/knowledge above all. A secret society containing rituals, altars, worshipful masters, hierarchy, symbolism, paganism and the segregation of the female gender is not a religion?

Freemasons wish to be gods amongst men, and it remains as simple as that... make note that that comment is geared towards the elite masons, the recruitment grounds for the illuminati objective to enslave mankind.

hehehe..


Is there some reason you copied and pasted the same post from here to here?

Other than to antagonize?

Your form is less than impressive.

Stegosaur: I think what you are describing would be acceptable, but don't take my word for it.


[edit on 8/17/05 by The Axeman]



posted on Aug, 17 2005 @ 10:57 AM
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I'm still not sure what the signifigance of Freemasonry being a religion or not is. There seems to be no point in this arguement. If someone could please clarify why this is being debated, it would be appreciated.



posted on Aug, 17 2005 @ 11:01 AM
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Originally posted by The Axeman
Is there some reason you copid and pasted the same post from [url=http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread162317/pg2]here to here?

Other than to antagonize?

Your form is less than impressive.


My explination is a simple one. I felt as though my comment would better apply to this specific topic, which happens to share similar interests with my reply to a user question from another post.

Also, If you paid closer attention you would notice that it wasn't copy 'n pasted.


Why flame me for staying directly on topic?


df1

posted on Aug, 17 2005 @ 11:04 AM
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Originally posted by Stegosaur
Does a Mason need to believe in a "Creator Deity"... ?



Deism-- The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.
dictionary.reference.com...

Im a Deist and my Lodge had no questions concerning my perception of God. The dictionary definition above is consistent with my beliefs and it is shared with some other Brethren of my Lodge.

Perhaps other Masons can express their perception of God.
.

[edit on 17-8-2005 by df1]



posted on Aug, 17 2005 @ 11:11 AM
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Originally posted by Cattlest
I'm still not sure what the signifigance of Freemasonry being a religion or not is. There seems to be no point in this arguement. If someone could please clarify why this is being debated, it would be appreciated.


I think the plurality issue is important to some fundamentalists; some people worry that if Freemasonry is technically a religion then by being a member, they are not being faithful to their own religion, and could therefore be considered apostate.

I think it is an important issue to clarify because I do know some people who think this way, and although I do not interpret it as apostasy as I do not consider it a religion, I could see how a fundamentalist might be hesitant to join if they did, in fact, see Freemasonry as a religion. That person has the right to their opinion and may choose not to join, but I do think the position is erroneous due to a simple misinterpretation.

I personally do not find anything in the Christian tradition that conflicts with the principles of Masonry. However, my view of Christianity is quite different than many see it, as I maintain there is a distinction between Christianity (the teachings of Christ himself), Judaism (Mosaic traditions of the Old Testament), and the teachings of Paul (which influenced most of the New Testament and the subsequent indoctrination of the Western world). So your own mileage may vary.



[edit on 17-8-2005 by Stegosaur]



posted on Aug, 17 2005 @ 11:20 AM
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Originally posted by syntaxer
My explination is a simple one. I felt as though my comment would better apply to this specific topic, which happens to share similar interests with my reply to a user question from another post.

Also, If you paid closer attention you would notice that it wasn't copy 'n pasted.


Why flame me for staying directly on topic?


I'm not flaming you but damn dude... excuse me. You copied, pasted, then slightly modified the post, but the meaning of it didn't change at all. You just cleaned it up.

Anyways, the point is, having been following your posts for the last couple of days, your intentions are quite clear, and in answer to your question, NO. Freemasonry is not a religion. It is religious, to be sure, but not a religion. Why folks have such a hard time with that I do not understand.



posted on Aug, 17 2005 @ 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
What?!? You people have infiltrated the very deepest of ATS recesses?


My goodness, you people really are at the very pinnacles of power everywhere! Even at the very top of the internet, in the secret realms of the ultimate conspiracy board!

How did this happen?


The inquisition,

What a show.

The inquisition,

Here we go!



posted on Aug, 17 2005 @ 11:39 AM
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Originally posted by syntaxer
Men draw themselves towards freemasonry to obtain the perception of owning godly powers/knowledge above all. A secret society containing rituals, altars, worshipful masters, hierarchy, symbolism, paganism and the segregation of the female gender is not a religion?

Freemasons wish to be gods amongst men, and it remains as simple as that... make note that that comment is geared towards the elite masons, the recruitment grounds for the illuminati objective to enslave mankind.


And I guess we should just take your word for it that you know what you're talking about? I guess I should ignore my years of experience as a Freemason and should believe you, a non-mason (and severely ignorant individual), as being the know-all of the fraternity?

Stop kidding yourself, cuz you're not fooling anyone else.



posted on Aug, 17 2005 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by The Axeman
Anyways, the point is, having been following your posts for the last couple of days, your intentions are quite clear, and in answer to your question, NO. Freemasonry is not a religion. It is religious, to be sure, but not a religion. Why folks have such a hard time with that I do not understand.


Please do not misinterpret myself for some flamboyant anti-mason ATS member, in fact, I think freemasonry can offer enlightenment for people who seek purpose in an otherwise troubled existence. Mind you, I'm only 66.6% religious
so the ramifications for participating in brotherhood ceremonies, which happen to involve what I mentioned above, pays onus to religious activities/characteristics making it a religion in nature.

Philosophers become Saints, Worshipful Masters become Righteous Priests, Elitists become Dogmatic.

It's all good brotha



posted on Aug, 17 2005 @ 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by eudaimonia
Freemasonry is a religion. PERIOD.

If the members don't beleive its a religion.....then its not a religion. Doesn't matter about the other mystical type stuff. The people in it don't consider it a religion, it has no particular gods in it, its a rather secular group in fact (in many ways anyway. Secularism is the charge that the RCC, infact, makes against it).

Its clearly not a religion.



posted on Aug, 17 2005 @ 12:46 PM
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JahBulOn is the god?
Anyone heard of this, by chance?





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