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Faith in faith

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posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 11:25 PM
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Looks like all Spamandham sees is queenannie38 and Spamandham.

This guy must have one of the longest ignore list on ATS, BTS, and PTS.

Ah, his quest for knowledge is leading him to not being informed. Not being informed is the definition of ignorance.

Deny ignorance?

Deny Spamandham.




posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 11:33 PM
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Alright folks....

Let's keep things civil here....



posted on Sep, 13 2005 @ 12:37 AM
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Communication is the key to being civil.

It's hard to be on the same page with anyone when you are not on the same page with them (literally).

At least that's how I invision how the ignore option works.

At any rate .....

Faith. If you have it are you ignorant or a liar, or is there any possible/provable virtue to faith?



posted on Sep, 13 2005 @ 07:48 AM
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Faith.

What is it about this word that people find virtuous? Why should it be considered a good thing to believe things that are hidden or unprovable?

I find the concept repulsive and the root cause behind the enslavement of mankind to both religious and political thinking.


It only means 'trust'. When Jesus asked his disciples to have more faith, he was not telling them to believe he existed.

The real question, however, is why we should have faith in what is offered as the alternative -- conformity to some sort of subset of the societal values of our place and time. Most people who raise 'questions' about Christianity have never evaluated what they replace it with in any manner.

Every set of values or ideas by which men live (not just talk about) needs to be evaluated objectively; and the mixture of mutually contradictory ideas characteristic of a period needs to be seen as a distinct religious position (although an incoherent one) and evaluated likewise. Since it changes every 40 years, of course, there isn't much to be said for it, which is why its exponents never do.

All the best,

Roger Pearse



posted on Sep, 13 2005 @ 11:19 PM
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Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Looks like all Spamandham sees is queenannie38 and Spamandham.

This guy must have one of the longest ignore list on ATS, BTS, and PTS.

Ah, his quest for knowledge is leading him to not being informed. Not being informed is the definition of ignorance.

Deny ignorance?

Deny Spamandham.




Actually, there were only 6 on it including you, one of which requested to be added, so that hardly counts.

Generally I only ignore people for a few days depending on how consistently obnoxious they are and whether or not they have anything to offer. There are two people who were permanently added for never having anything of value to add, but I'm making that 3 now. I don't expect to be treated any differently. You're certainly free to ignore me.

Roger is already back off the list (I'm sure he's thrilled) since he has something to offer.



posted on Sep, 13 2005 @ 11:24 PM
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wow, that last reply was COMPLETY off topic

Can we close this thread now since it has now outlived its pointlessness?



posted on Sep, 13 2005 @ 11:31 PM
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Originally posted by roger_pearse
It only means 'trust'. When Jesus asked his disciples to have more faith, he was not telling them to believe he existed.


That may have been what Jesus meant, but it isn't how Paul defined faith. It's reasonable to trust someone who proves they are trustworthy, to the degree they prove it. If you accept the gospels at face value, the disciples saw for themselves that which could not be explained anyway other than by the explanation Jesus presented - that he was more than a man.

But you and I do not have the same luxury. We have only ancient manuscripts of dubious authorship, and church tradition that is mostly rejected even by many practicing Catholics. Even if it could be shown that the NT writings were eyewitness accounts, we can not simply dismiss other possibilities such as; a conspiracy, hypnosis, shared delusion, etc.


Originally posted by roger_pearse
Most people who raise 'questions' about Christianity have never evaluated what they replace it with in any manner.


As a system of values, Christianity is not the worst, but what does that have to do with whether or not faith is virtuous?



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 12:40 AM
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Alright, you have been asked by one Moderator to keep on track and maintain civility. If the two of you want to exchange u2u's about ignoring each other kindly do so however, please refarin from posting your ongoign discussion about it. If you have something to add to the debate at hand in this thread please do so. Otherwise take it elsewhere.

Thanks



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 02:57 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by roger_pearse
It only means 'trust'. When Jesus asked his disciples to have more faith, he was not telling them to believe he existed.


That may have been what Jesus meant, but it isn't how Paul defined faith.


I think it is, actually.



It's reasonable to trust someone who proves they are trustworthy, to the degree they prove it. If you accept the gospels at face value, the disciples saw for themselves that which could not be explained anyway other than by the explanation Jesus presented - that he was more than a man.

But you and I do not have the same luxury. We have only ancient manuscripts of dubious authorship, and church tradition that is mostly rejected even by many practicing Catholics. Even if it could be shown that the NT writings were eyewitness accounts, we can not simply dismiss other possibilities such as; a conspiracy, hypnosis, shared delusion, etc.


I'm not quite sure of the relevance of this. No-one is suggesting that people wishing to become Christians should not think through the issues. It is, after all, only non-Christians who live by faith in a set of values and ideas which they have not examined as a whole and which they know (if they thought about it at all) are purely temporary and will pass away.




Originally posted by roger_pearse
Most people who raise 'questions' about Christianity have never evaluated what they replace it with in any manner.


As a system of values, Christianity is not the worst, but what does that have to do with whether or not faith is virtuous?


While we sneer at the blind belief of others, it is usually wise to check we are not practising even more blind belief ourselves.

All the best,

Roger Pearse



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 04:20 AM
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Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
When all else is gone, the only prerequisite for optimism remaining is faith. Without faith, even hope is nonexistent.

Faith is a necessity for those who percieve that all else is gone.

Faith is virtuous because it is the only positive remnants within the human psychi when a person knows they are dying and there is nothing they can do about it.

Faith is the only thing a person will have as they lay there for however long knowing their own existance cease to exist.

Faith is what permits people to stop fighting, stop suffering, stop contemplating their bodily systems shutting down one by one, and find peaceful release and rest free of guilt for leaving their friends and family behind.

Faith is the pinacle of empathy.


This seems to be mainly faith in life after death your talking about here,am I right ?

It has always seemed to me these ideas come from being unable to come to terms with mortality and the way you have expressed it reinforces my thoughts.Contemplation upon the fragility of human existence and the absurdity of life without a deeper meaning can be overwhelming and many people can't or don't want to face the stark reality that looking at the world with a rational mind there's nothing to suggest any existence after death.
Why is it a virtue to lie at the brink of death and still cling to hope of something more,what's wrong with accepting we are a part of the natural cycle of the earth,do all things which die got to another life ? Why is man the exception,because of mans pride and vanity he exalts himself above all forms of life,a dog will die and rot in the ground end of story but men refuse to contemplate the same natural end for themselves.

Almost all other aspect of religion or spirituality can be grounded in some form of perceivable reality even if at times it's a fairly abstract connection but existence after death is a pure creation of the mind,nothing you can see or sense can give validity to existence after death.
I would also suggest love is the pinnacle of empathy not faith in the unknowable.

[edit on 14/9/2005 by Ras Dedan]



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 09:50 AM
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Originally posted by roger_pearse
I think it is, actually.


I take it you find contention with the supposition that Paul is the author of Hebrews?

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.


Originally posted by roger_pearse
It is, after all, only non-Christians who live by faith in a set of values and ideas which they have not examined as a whole and which they know (if they thought about it at all) are purely temporary and will pass away.


Are you including Muslim, Buhddists, etc in this, or did you really mean 'nonreligious'?

The Bible permits slavery. Until fairly recently, the practice was widely supported by Christians, and justified by the Bible. Now it is rightfully condemned. Christian values are just as temporary as any others.


Originally posted by roger_pearse
While we sneer at the blind belief of others, it is usually wise to check we are not practising even more blind belief ourselves.


First off, questioning the concept of faith is not the same as snearing at the blind belief of others. This topic seems to have boiled more blood than others that directly attack the subjects of faith, such as the historicity of Jesus, etc. I had no idea that questioning the concept of faith would cause such a reaction. The reaction itself is actually evidence that those who have such a reaction accept faith on faith.

Is acting toward one's own self interests a blind belief? I don't see how. Nor do I see how it is possible not to act in such a manner unless your actions are uncontrolled by your mind.



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 10:30 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by roger_pearse
I think it is, actually.


I take it you find contention with the supposition that Paul is the author of Hebrews?

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.


This does not contradict what I said, tho, as far as I can see. Paul did not write Hebrews, of course, although it comes from his circle. The authorship has been lost.




Originally posted by roger_pearse
It is, after all, only non-Christians who live by faith in a set of values and ideas which they have not examined as a whole and which they know (if they thought about it at all) are purely temporary and will pass away.


The Bible permits slavery... Until fairly recently, the practice was widely supported by Christians, and justified by the Bible. Now it is rightfully condemned. Christian values are just as temporary as any others.


If this were so -- and the falsity of it is hardly in question -- would it establish the validity of the values for which you campaign here?




Originally posted by roger_pearse
While we sneer at the blind belief of others, it is usually wise to check we are not practising even more blind belief ourselves.


First off, questioning the concept of faith is not the same as snearing at the blind belief of others....


If you say so.


All the best,

Roger Pearse

[edit on 14/9/2005 by roger_pearse]



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 10:47 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Looks like all Spamandham sees is queenannie38 and Spamandham.

This guy must have one of the longest ignore list on ATS, BTS, and PTS.

Ah, his quest for knowledge is leading him to not being informed. Not being informed is the definition of ignorance.

Deny ignorance?

Deny Spamandham.




Actually, there were only 6 on it including you, one of which requested to be added, so that hardly counts.

Generally I only ignore people for a few days depending on how consistently obnoxious they are and whether or not they have anything to offer. There are two people who were permanently added for never having anything of value to add, but I'm making that 3 now. I don't expect to be treated any differently. You're certainly free to ignore me.

Roger is already back off the list (I'm sure he's thrilled) since he has something to offer.


And this was not a worthy contribution according to your standards? :




quote: Originally posted by spamandham
Faith.

What is it about this word that people find virtuous?
...
Faith is a necessity, or dispare will be all you have when all else no longer remains.




(Edited by Byrd. Please, folks, do NOT REpost long quotes. Quote the first and last line and link to the message instead... okay?)

[edit on 14-9-2005 by Byrd]



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 12:09 PM
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Originally posted by roger_pearse


The Bible permits slavery... Until fairly recently, the practice was widely supported by Christians, and justified by the Bible. Now it is rightfully condemned. Christian values are just as temporary as any others.


If this were so -- and the falsity of it is hardly in question -- would it establish the validity of the values for which you campaign here?


If what were so? Be more specific.

What values have I campaigned for?



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 12:19 PM
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Originally posted by roger_pearse
It is, after all, only non-Christians who live by faith in a set of values and ideas which they have not examined as a whole and which they know (if they thought about it at all) are purely temporary and will pass away.

Originally posted by spamandham
The Bible permits slavery... Until fairly recently, the practice was widely supported by Christians, and justified by the Bible. Now it is rightfully condemned. Christian values are just as temporary as any others.



Originally posted by roger_pearse
If this were so -- and the falsity of it is hardly in question



First of all it's arrogant in the extreme to be so dismissive of all non-christian beliefs although I'm not surprised in the slightest to read such blatant falsehood.
As for the Bible being used as justification for slavery there is not the slightest doubt that this is factual but in your arrogance you reject it out of hand,perhaps you should check things before you make such bold statements various passages in the bible have been used to uphold slavery,the most common one being Noahs curse on Ham.

Genesis9
[24] And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
[25] And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
[26] And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
[27] God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

If you question the validity of this claim do a little reasearch.You will find it's fact that this amongst other passages was used by christians to give validity to the slavery of Africans.


[edit on 14/9/2005 by Ras Dedan]



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 02:27 PM
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Originally posted by Ras Dedan

Faith is the pinacle of empathy.



This seems to be mainly faith in life after death your talking about here,am I right ?


Yes I was. Through a portion of the posts made here, it was moderatley easy for me to interprit that the information presented was reffering to faith in the spiritual sense, with the ramifications of such contributions leaning towards the belief that the spirit does not require the body after the body is done serving as a host for the spirit.




It has always seemed to me these ideas come from being unable to come to terms with mortality and the way you have expressed it reinforces my thoughts.


I think it is far more prideful, egotistical, and arrogant for me to take the side which permits me to perceive that I have the authority to take someone's dying wish prematurely before they are dying, that dying wish being that there faith permits them to believe that their existance made a difference to the existance of consciousness, and that their is something higher than humanity, or any one human for that matter.


Contemplation upon the fragility of human existence and the absurdity of life without a deeper meaning can be overwhelming and many people can't or don't want to face the stark reality that looking at the world with a rational mind there's nothing to suggest any existence after death.


Looking at the world with a rational mind can be a very unobjective interpritation of this world. And a rational mind is a term that has many connotations to many different minds. Where one mind might think having 7,000+ years of written and recorded world history that is devoid of seven consecutive days without war and killing, another individual's mind might think that the human race not going seven days without war and/or killing eachother over the course of their entire history to be the result of irrational minds.


Why is it a virtue to lie at the brink of death and still cling to hope of something more,what's wrong with accepting we are a part of the natural cycle of the earth,do all things which die got to another life ?

Necessity. Because man is the only creature on this planet that has the capacity and capability to excercise moral and ethical judgement that justifies our actions of killing on a mass scale. No other animal on this planet has snuffed out millions of their own kind in a day. Therefor our actions have proven that we have removed ourselves from the natural cycle of earth by choosing to have the capacity to judge what life has the right to continue, and what life does not have the right to continue. It therefore becomes a necessity to attempt to hold ourselves to higher standards other than the standards of the "most intelligent" lifeforms on this planet, because we are not only capable of genicide, but have excersized that authority to erase entire ethnic groups from the face of the planet. Sure, certain animals have hunted their prey to extinction, but how many have obliterated every last specific variation withing their own breed, save humans? It therefore becomes virtious for man to hold himself to a higher standard than the one man has, because humanities standards alone have proven to be not so virtious.


Why is man the exception,because of mans pride and vanity he exalts himself above all forms of life,a dog will die and rot in the ground end of story but men refuse to contemplate the same natural end for themselves.

I don't personnally believe the spirit within dogs are seperate from the spirit within man, therefore it would be mute for me to debate your statement with any measurable passionate rhetoric.


Almost all other aspect of religion or spirituality can be grounded in some form of perceivable reality even if at times it's a fairly abstract connection but existence after death is a pure creation of the mind,nothing you can see or sense can give validity to existence after death.

That is the sublime beauty of it. It must be experienced, and cannot be experienced until in the right frame of mind. A frame of mind for the reverence of all life and all creation minus the personal habits of humanity to succumb to the complacency of only taking in information that is most self serving, and "blocking out" the stimuli that encompass the whole of experience, not just what is most self serving (self preservation dictates that it is usually the overiding #1 program always running within the human psychi).


I would also suggest love is the pinnacle of empathy not faith in the unknowable.


I don't necessarily disagree with you. But, I would point out that I said faith is the pinnacle of empathy. It is my life's experience that has led me to know that faith in omnipotence has provided me with faith in myself, and faith in myself has led me to know myself as being capable of doing what surpasses my capabilities without faith in myself. It is that inner drive derived from faith that has led me to truly understand myself, which is a prerequisite for understanding anyone else. If you have empathy for anyone else, it is because you know yourself well enough to know how you would feel under the same circumstances. It was faith that has provided me with that skill on many levels, whereas other broad intangible terms have not. I would also argue that love in and of itself is not the pinnacle of empathy because you can not love anyone without loving yourself, and you can not love yourself without knowing yourself, and you can not know yourself without testing yourself beyond your known limits, and you can not test yourself successfully without first having faith that you can perform some task, or do something faster of better, or more proficient than you already have. Faith in your abilities is what makes you grow, learn, and do any specific or broader task better than what you had previously performed it. That is why I said faith is the pinnacle of empathy, but admittedly I may have chosen my words incorrectly. At any rate, love without faith may not be love. And if love is what makes the best man has to offer, then faith is a virtious necessity.



[edit on 14-9-2005 by Esoteric Teacher]



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 05:13 PM
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Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher


Originally posted by Ras Dedan
It has always seemed to me these ideas come from being unable to come to terms with mortality and the way you have expressed it reinforces my thoughts.

I think it is far more prideful, egotistical, and arrogant for me to take the side which permits me to perceive that I have the authority to take someone's dying wish prematurely before they are dying, that dying wish being that there faith permits them to believe that their existance made a difference to the existance of consciousness, and that their is something higher than humanity, or any one human for that matter.


Really don't get the point you're trying to make,can't see how your reply relates to my thoughts that the concept of life after death springs from fear of facing your own mortality.Read through your original post again it reads like a list of fears and that faith in a concept devoid of any rational thought is the only way to face the fear of the unknown.



Faith is a necessity for those who percieve that all else is gone.

Faith is virtuous because it is the only positive remnants within the human psychi when a person knows they are dying and there is nothing they can do about it.

Why is it a necessity ? to shield from reality?
The second part is again fear,it screams of fear you need to have hope in the face of death instead of accepting death as a natural part of the cycle of life,your life had a beginning therefore must have an end,why so fearful of something which is the only thing we are guaranteed in life.Virtue ? I really cant see how the word virtue applies to any of this.Read down the rest of your comments no need to quote it all again here it's one fear after another.
An honest question,why is the thought of just dying so repugnant to you?




Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Looking at the world with a rational mind can be a very unobjective interpritation of this world. And a rational mind is a term that has many connotations to many different minds. Where one mind might think having 7,000+ years of written and recorded world history that is devoid of seven consecutive days without war and killing, another individual's mind might think that the human race not going seven days without war and/or killing eachother over the course of their entire history to be the result of irrational minds.


That doesn't even make sense,It's certainly far more objective than just projecting your thoughts as reality.So you claim to gain a better understanding of the world through believing your own thoughts regardless of what we can see and feel,than through observation and logical reasoning,I think the folly of that is clear.What posible connotations are there behind rational mind ?
ra·tion·al adj. Having or exercising the ability to reason.
and if you want bring irrational killing into it how many of those killed were killed in the name of religious faith but again I really don't see what your getting at maybe just trying to muddy the water with irrelevent matters.


Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
Why is it a virtue to lie at the brink of death and still cling to hope of something more,what's wrong with accepting we are a part of the natural cycle of the earth,do all things which die got to another life ?

Necessity. Because man is the only creature on this planet that has the capacity and capability to excercise moral and ethical judgement that justifies our actions of killing on a mass scale. No other animal on this planet has snuffed out millions of their own kind in a day. Therefor our actions have proven that we have removed ourselves from the natural cycle of earth by choosing to have the capacity to judge what life has the right to continue, and what life does not have the right to continue.It therefore becomes a necessity to attempt to hold ourselves to higher standards other than the standards of the "most intelligent" lifeforms on this planet, because we are not only capable of genicide, but have excersized that authority to erase entire ethnic groups from the face of the planet. Sure, certain animals have hunted their prey to extinction, but how many have obliterated every last specific variation withing their own breed, save humans? It therefore becomes virtious for man to hold himself to a higher standard than the one man has, because humanities standards alone have proven to be not so virtious.


This is really getting more and more out there,are you are saying that because our brains are more advanced than an other form of life we are no longer bound by the laws of nature ? Why has man got the right to choose life for others ? He may have the ability to destroy others on a mass scale but the right ?I wouldn't say so but if you think that fair enough.Your totally loosing me again at the end and I see no relevance to the issue of life after death.



Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
I don't personnally believe the spirit within dogs are seperate from the spirit within man, therefore it would be mute for me to debate your statement with any measurable passionate rhetoric.

Hey what do you know we got a small point of agreement,but the question really was do animals attain life after death,do I take it from this the answer is yes or am I reading you wrong and does this go for all forms of life.


Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher


Originally posted by Ras Dedan
nothing you can see or sense can give validity to existence after death.

That is the sublime beauty of it. It must be experienced, and cannot be experienced until in the right frame of mind. A frame of mind for the reverence of all life and all creation minus the personal habits of humanity to succumb to the complacency of only taking in information that is most self serving, and "blocking out" the stimuli that encompass the whole of experience, not just what is most self serving (self preservation dictates that it is usually the overiding #1 program always running within the human psychi).



Nope,not wearing that,that is a total cop out.You infered something of my beliefs at the start which I feel no need to respond to but I will quote it in response to this "prideful, egotistical, and arrogant" which perfectly describes your presumption to know my mind.Your claiming that I cannot see or sense the validity of life after death and therefore you can because my state of mind is not as advanced as your own,what pomposity.If you would care to read the Express your beliefs thread you will see this


Originally posted by Ras Dedan
I believe that God dwells within man and nature,all forms of life are the physical manifestation of God.One life many varying manifestations of that life,we should respect and cherish life in all forms.

You will see no such thoughts on the reverence of all life in any of the other posts most of which are from belivers in an afterlife including your own.Save the preaching about the reverence of life for someone else and the comment about self serving thoughts and the blocking of stimuli,think that one through more carefully.
What is more self serving than rejecting the observable world and the input of your senses for your own opinions and hopes.



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 05:49 PM
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Originally posted by Ras Dedan

An honest question,why is the thought of just dying so repugnant to you?


The thought of just dying is not repugnant to me. The thought of deminishing the thought of life after death in anyone else does.

I guess the simplest way for me to explain why faith is necessary in my view is like this:

When I used to run long distance cross country running, I was taught to always imagine someone in front of you, even if you are in the lead. By doing this you can set yourself at a pace with an imaginary goal in front of you. Like in the movie "Sea Biscuit", just because you are winning doesn't mean you can not give your all, because when Sea Biscuit and the jockey did that, they lost the race.

Wothout faith in something greater than man, man is the greatest there is. And isn't that concept in and of itself prideful and egotistical?

I've been in situations more than once that I sincerely believed were my last moments of life. Fear of death is a natural response, unless you do not have the encoded genetic information within you of "Self Preservation". Just accepting death as being the end is enough to send too many people over the edge. Knowing their actions have no consequences in the here after means that no one has the right to judge anyone, therefore there are no rules or laws worth obeying, if they expected reward or punishment.




What is more self serving than rejecting the observable world and the input of your senses for your own opinions and hopes.


Scientifically, everyone does it. Since all sensory stimulis first gets transmitted to the subconscious part of the brain, it is your conscious state of mind that dictates how much of that information you've collected through your senses that is actually integrated on the conscious level.

Simply stated that means that people do not take in everything that is going on, and it is their conscious mind that decides it.


"What is more self serving than rejecting the observable world and the input of your senses for your own opinions and hopes?"


A thought or bith of information is nothing more than an electrical pulse between neurons (brain cells)

the average conscious mind operates in the frontal lobes of the brain.

The conscious mind sparks 2,000 biths of information per second.
The sub-conscious sparks 400,000,000,000 biths of information per second.

Do you really think that all information collected by your senses is made aware to you, by you?

What is more self serving is finding out how not to permit your mind from rejecting the observable world and the input of your senses. Opinions and hopes fall away. The irony of becoming capable of taking all information in on the conscious level is denying that which you think is most self serving. Then a person is capable of utilizing that which they have been responsible for: concealing their true potential from themselves. But, they must first have something greater than themselves to aspire to, without the imperfections of mankind's track record demonstrated in their actions and behaviours throughout history.



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 07:53 PM
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Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
The thought of just dying is not repugnant to me. The thought of deminishing the thought of life after death in anyone else does.

Do you think that stating my thoughts will deminsh others beliefs? I don't,what others wish to believe is there own business and if they don't wish to question their own beliefs that's their business also,I hardly think me sharing my views will effect others one bit.But there are a whole lot of people who proclaim their opinions as facts and look down on others with divergent views,this I will challenge.


Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Wothout faith in something greater than man, man is the greatest there is. And isn't that concept in and of itself prideful and egotistical?


Ok,man has the most advanced brain of any creature on earth.This is not pride or ego,that is unquestionably factual.That is all that lifts man above any other form of life in my humble opinion.As I stated previously my belief is that every creature in creation and all of nature itself is the manifestation of God.One life many varying manifestations of that life.When I pass someone in the street I see God,when I see a cow I see God,when I see a tree or blade of grass I see God.
I dont see God as an external superior being,that kind of God is by it's own definition unknowable through human perception my own perception of God is also unknowable but I can follow a line of reasoning that leads me to that thought,whereas the supernatural God requires a leap of faith because there is an obvious break in the rationality of the thinking.Faith is essential to an extent but faith without any logical basis is folly in my opinion.


Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
I've been in situations more than once that I sincerely believed were my last moments of life. Fear of death is a natural response, unless you do not have the encoded genetic information within you of "Self Preservation".


Nobody wants to die,well some do but not normally.We all seek to extend life as long as possible even those who believe in an all singing all dancing hereafter,which is another point if the afterlife is so wonderful and guaranteed why are there more doctors and better medical facilities in christian countries than anywhere else? that's only a rhetorical question. For all that faith christians seem pretty keen on extending their lives in the here and now.I don't fear death though why have fear of the inevitable,we will all die one day that's the only thing we can say for sure will happen in our futures.
I may not have had specific situations of thinking I was about to die but I have been through periods of serious illness where I could have without treatment died and have spent prolonged periods in hospital,so believe me I have confronted thoughts of death and my own mortality and done a lot of contemplation on it.


Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Just accepting death as being the end is enough to send too many people over the edge. Knowing their actions have no consequences in the here after means that no one has the right to judge anyone, therefore there are no rules or laws worth obeying, if they expected reward or punishment.


That is exactly the point I was making about where the belief in an afterlife comes from,I wasn't attempting to ridicule beliefs just analyzing the possible origins of the concept and it seems to me that,that is the most likely.It can be a dizzying conclusion to reach but one that I'm perfectly at ease with now.It doesn't mean that no laws or rules are worth obeying though,there is human law and what we can have also though is morality and respect based on it being the proper thing to do through understanding not through fear or judgement of others.It can be difficult to comprehend the freedom and responsibilities such belief brings and it would be just as easy for someone to reach this conclusion and live a totally immoral and nasty life but there's a balance in all things and people who live that way will never find happiness or peace this is observable in the world.Call it karma or whatever you like but the longer I live the more clear the cycle of things becomes to me,what goes around comes around,would appear to be reality.



Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Scientifically, everyone does it. Since all sensory stimulis first gets transmitted to the subconscious part of the brain, it is your conscious state of mind that dictates how much of that information you've collected through your senses that is actually integrated on the conscious level.


This though is how our brains work we would have sensory overload without this type of filtering and be unable to function.What I meant was the conscious decision to replace the percievable with opinion,which when you get down to it is what faith is.



Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
But, they must first have something greater than themselves to aspire to, without the imperfections of mankind's track record demonstrated in their actions and behaviours throughout history.

You have it right there there's no need to aspire to unknowable things,to rise above the historical imperfections in mankind is goal enough,strive to become the best person you can be and improve the life of others what greater aim could one have in life to quote Albert Camus "The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart" and when death comes it will take care of it's self and we will finally know or not know as the case may be.



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 08:45 PM
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Originally posted by Ras Dedan

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
The thought of just dying is not repugnant to me. The thought of deminishing the thought of life after death in anyone else does.

Do you think that stating my thoughts will deminsh others beliefs?


Certainly not. I was merely implying that I don't wish to attempt to belittle those who choose to believe in something higher up the chain than humans.


I don't,what others wish to believe is there own business and if they don't wish to question their own beliefs that's their business also,I hardly think me sharing my views will effect others one bit.But there are a whole lot of people who proclaim their opinions as facts and look down on others with divergent views,this I will challenge.


I can see your point. But, some people have endured life changing and view altering experiences that both you and I have not. It is a moral crime against no one but ourselves if we choose to discredit thier words on the basis of their belief system. It is thier belief system and communication skills that can help us to learn and aid us in humanities struggle for more tolerance, and less intolerance between our own kind, ..... and other kinds.


Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Wothout faith in something greater than man, man is the greatest there is. And isn't that concept in and of itself prideful and egotistical?




Ok,man has the most advanced brain of any creature on earth.This is not pride or ego,that is unquestionably factual.That is all that lifts man above any other form of life in my humble opinion.


Semantics (evil me). What about women? Just kidding. Listen, just because mankind has the most advanced brain in man's point of view, does not make that belief absolutley factual. And, I wouldn't necessarily agree that mankind has been lifted above any other form of life. We just have a highly developed means of communication, which definatley gave us a great amount of knowledge and intelligence above the creatures of this planet as we percieve them to be.




As I stated previously my belief is that every creature in creation and all of nature itself is the manifestation of God.One life many varying manifestations of that life.When I pass someone in the street I see God,when I see a cow I see God,when I see a tree or blade of grass I see God.


We are in total agreement on this point.



I dont see God as an external superior being,that kind of God is by it's own definition unknowable through human perception my own perception of God is also unknowable but I can follow a line of reasoning that leads me to that thought,whereas the supernatural God requires a leap of faith because there is an obvious break in the rationality of the thinking.


Perhaps the roads we both travelled just led to the same place. It was my belief and faith in an omnipresent God of both all nature and the supernatural that led me to take a leap of faith within, and find that which I only percieved in a certain state of mind was dormant, but was always there. Then again, perhaps supernatural means two different things to us. For the most part I think supernatural is merely nature's laws and measurable curcumstances that man can not fully explain. Which is not necessarily "magic". And, in some cases I take the term "supernatural" to explain things that defy any explanation by anyone that has been "lifted" above all other creatures on this planet.



Faith is essential to an extent but faith without any logical basis is folly in my opinion.


I'm not sure if I totally agree with you on this point. Faith with logic is faith, but faith without any logical basis is somehow faith with negative connotations? I'll have to give that some thought. Faith to me is finding truth through faith that it must be with no proof, then finding the proof well after the fact of believing it to be truth. The end results being reached, but not necessarily beginning with a logical seed of thought. Faith with logic vs. faith without logic?


Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
I've been in situations more than once that I sincerely believed were my last moments of life. Fear of death is a natural response, unless you do not have the encoded genetic information within you of "Self Preservation".



Nobody wants to die,well some do but not normally.We all seek to extend life as long as possible even those who believe in an all singing all dancing hereafter,which is another point if the afterlife is so wonderful and guaranteed why are there more doctors and better medical facilities in christian countries than anywhere else? that's only a rhetorical question.


LOL. Rhetorical, but a good point. I gues my answer would be fear, without faith. Faith with or without logic.


........... ,so believe me I have confronted thoughts of death and my own mortality and done a lot of contemplation on it.


I already knew as much, or we probably would not have been having this conversation.




That is exactly the point I was making about where the belief in an afterlife comes from, ...


Perhaps the afterlife itself. Stories of people who have died and come back with stories of what they have seen are in all cultures, throughout history. Of course, the arguement could be made that it was merely their brains reacting to O2 deprevation.


It doesn't mean that no laws or rules are worth obeying though,there is human law and what we can have also though is morality and respect based on it being the proper thing to do through understanding not through fear or judgement of others.


Maybe at the time human law was created by the rulers of those long past ages it was necessary for an all seeing eye, and the ramifications of all the eye sees of the deeds of each individual. This being said, I think it just promoted fear, which in turn promotes hate.


It can be difficult to comprehend the freedom and responsibilities such belief brings and it would be just as easy for someone to reach this conclusion and live a totally immoral and nasty life but there's a balance in all things and people who live that way will never find happiness or peace this is observable in the world.Call it karma or whatever you like but the longer I live the more clear the cycle of things becomes to me,what goes around comes around,would appear to be reality.


Implanted within us by that which created us, or do our subconsciousses judge us by the rules and laws we as individuals tend to hold others too?
Just a thought. Logically the second makes sense. Faithfully the first does, faithfully logical, though, both may be correct.



Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Scientifically, everyone does it. Since all sensory stimulis first gets transmitted to the subconscious part of the brain, it is your conscious state of mind that dictates how much of that information you've collected through your senses that is actually integrated on the conscious level.



This though is how our brains work we would have sensory overload without this type of filtering and be unable to function.

But, just because the state of mind of the conscious dictates the filtering, does not mean the conscious mind is aware of what has been filtered, and kept from the conscious experience of life.


What I meant was the conscious decision to replace the percievable with opinion,which when you get down to it is what faith is.


Then what would you call it when your brain fills in the blind spot from our eyes? The brain inputs what should be their with opinion, opinion that is not the opinion of the conscious mind.




Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
But, they must first have something greater than themselves to aspire to, without the imperfections of mankind's track record demonstrated in their actions and behaviours throughout history.

You have it right there there's no need to aspire to unknowable things,to rise above the historical imperfections in mankind is goal enough,strive to become the best person you can be and improve the life of others what greater aim could one have in life to quote Albert Camus "The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart" and when death comes it will take care of it's self and we will finally know or not know as the case may be.


Faith that those heights exist must first be there within the human psychi. So, back to the original question. Who put that faith within us to aspire to be more than man? Man? What inspired man to believe he/she could be more than what man is if not faith in that which is more than man?




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