Originally posted by RANT
So much of the disconnect in our conversation is just that (disconnect), I don't know that further point by point reduction helps at all.
I copied your post this time though to at least look at while I respond.
Now your going to pooh pooh my thought process and label it as disconnected?? I took your points and added on to them, my own kind of view, perhaps
maybe that is disconnect from your angle, i'm just letting you know where I come from.
Originally posted by Rant
Like most people, every democrat does have different ideas (though I'm not sure everyone in ear range you ascribe with the quality of being a
"democrat" actually qualifies). But the principle grounding never changes as the party of the people (not fat cats, corporations and invisible
Principles exhuberating liberal social views and liberal fiscial views?
The party of progression? I have alot to say on that... While they do claim they are the party of american rights and liberties there is always a
catch, and some red tape attached to it, like gun laws, drug use, religious/occult views (waco), it's their own kind of unique branding on what
'rights and liberties' are/should be... Not cool, not a good idea, and not well thought out. And Unconstiutional...
And yes, that's populist and changes over time or 'sways.' The party of rural electrification becomes the party of police action becomes
the party of space exploration and American supremacy becomes the party of choice and civil liberties becomes the party of fiscal responsibility and
medical advancement becomes the party of what else needs fixing?
Populist voter's are for the people and give power to the people moreso then the government, your giving political parties the power to make
decisions for the american people because they think thats what they want, and/or sometimes don't even care but impose new laws on us anyway for the
benefit of some corporate conglomerate or lobbyists... You see, democrats are also guilty of this too, not just conservatives... conservatives have
the spot light on them at the moment so it's more noticeable on that side, democrats accuse them of the very thing they partake in also. Don't tell
me no, there are quite a few names I can donate to my point but i'll give you one to chew on for now like one infamous prick -freaking Daschle
jackass sellout butt punk corporate gravy train rider of a 'democrat', allowing his palms to get greased and introducing legislation that was
written by major banks and the credit-card industry to tighten the screws on debt ridden american families who could barely afford to pay their maxed
out credit card bills and on the brink of a chapter 7, and only 16 democrats voted against the bill. Indeed, party of the people...
Let me know if you want me to continue out democratic lobbyists and fat cats who influence your democratic elected...
And I'm really not trying to convert you. Just inform you your ideas are unpopular.
Then that would mean that the majority of Americans have forgotten their roots, their history, the meaning of this country, and their constitutional
education... That would be really unfortunate. If I was back in the founder's time I would of signed and fought to enact that peice of paper to
ensure every american had those rights locked in and almost impossible to change... I can't believe your saying those who hold strong to those
principles today are viewed as un popular...
I'd like to believe your just blowing smoke... Perhaps i'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Not to say that Democrats have been much better at getting their ideas across the past few years, but people seem to want their liberalism from
cowboys calling themselves 'conservatives' right now. Or at least they thought they did.
Perhaps your referring to republican's, the problem w/ this country is it's present state in politics... People hold their political parties flag
above the american flag first, and they know not what they do or what that can cost them in terms of constitutional freedoms, privately, socially and
Don't be so black & white in your thinking. Well, you can be if you like but that unbending philosophical imperative is why libertarians scare
How is asking you a questions about dean claiming to be libertarian black and white thinking? I don't know his whole platform but I know a few thing
of what he said about health care and tax reform was totally un libertarian.
He hold quasi-socialist views and exhibits a liberal agenda... Sure is is libertarian-ISH when it comes to the social issues but when it comes to tax
reform, health care, education, gun laws, and drug use, he's not libertarian -ISH... he quasi socialist. And that isn't holding true to the
classical American standards...
I mean, I wanted to kick someone's ass after 9/11 and didn't really care who (I used to watch a lot of Fox News) and would have
personally strung a hypothetical President Michael Badnarick up by his testicles if he had said now hold on here, let's no go crazy. Let me check
If you would of known the libertarian stance back then you would of known that they were for kicking someone's ass... BIN LADEN'S, and al qaida's,
NOT IRAQ'S or Saddam.
As it's well known or should be well known, Libertarianism is all for the protection and maintaning America's homeland (isolationism) UNTIL we are
attacked... Then yes, it's time to kick someone's ass ... Not the wrong guy, and not the wrong countries...
Current day foreign policy is unconstitutional, I think we can both agree on that note. We can also agree that to meddle in foreign entaglements will
get into trouble down the road, as we are witnessing today.
Both democrats and republicans are guilty of that. To blame your oppositional party is just arrogant and makes you blind to your own parties guilty
I've been to a libertarian rally/dinner party where badnarik even said he was for going after bin laden and al qaida, because tha twas a blatant
attack on american soil... But before then, america was aleady occupying countries and meddling in foreign affairs, and that cost 3500 innocent
american lives... You don't that.
Afghanistan didn't do anything to us. Let's not get entangled in that can o' worms. It was Osama. I think. Let's send a bounty hunter to
get him. Like $5 grand tops. I know somebody.
Yes, exactly, they didn't do anything, while they were hunting the taliban in Afganistan because they were oppressive to those people, why didn't
they meddle in Africa's affairs also? There were and still are oppressive governments in that country, there are oppressive governments in south
america and there was an oppressive government in Haiti (Aristide) but the difference is there is a special interest over there, American government
is helping Israel, and they are slowly working on various countries to tone down the hostility, create more then one democratic country in that
region, and make some money while they're at it... That is unconstitutional and I don't know why republicans don't see this..
No. Howard Dean and the Democratic Party are NOT Libertarians. They're libertarianish! More than the RNC anyway. And
getting more every day. But there's a problem. The people. You know why the DNC won't come out and say "free bazookas!" The people want some gun
restrictions. Just like they want welfare and missiles and invasions and moon shots.
Is the constitution not the supremem law of the land rant? Or do we just it whenever it's convenient for us? That's the problem w/ modern day
politics, they want to have their cake and eat it too. People want some gun restrictions?? People want welfare??? People understandably want things
all the time, they want their free speech, they want their freedom of press, they want seperation of church and state, they want those amendments in
the constitution but they want to pick and and choose when and what should be kept and what should be changed.. I'm talking about individuals and
politicians on both sides... YOu can't have it both ways... This is why the constitution has so many holes in it, and is continuously being
perverted, this why government can now enforce eminent domain w/ out just compensation... You can't pick and choose. Gun restrictions, please
don't get me started on that, i think you know what i'm going to say about that - gun restrictions don't stop the criminals from buying on the
black market, criminals don't use safety locks. Law abiding citizens do, why restrict them even more? jesus christ.
Everybody wants welfare? perhaps those that vote democrat do. A personal story - my sister had twins, wanted to leave her husband because he has a
problem w/ foot dragging and bs'ing/excuse making, she wanted to go back to canada, get the social assistance (for a good reason) to pay for day
care, so she can work, go back to school to be able to support herself. Now libertarians are very black and white when it comes to this, they want to
oust welfare for various reasons ranging from it being unconstitutional to the idea of welfare recipients having cognitive/behavioural problems. I do
agree that it isn't anywhere in the constitution because this is a country that was built on self sufficiency- no handouts (FROM THE
GOVERNMENT/TAXPAYER), and I do also agree w/ the fact that there are many non governmental agencies and non profits, and charities/philanthropists
that help these people out, and are willing to help up and coming people who need financial assistance..
What is the problem with that again?? It's not government cheese aka our tax dollars so your going to have a beef w/ it??
It's a fine line though and the DNC will lose an election on principle if the people are wrong (getting good at it actually). But you
pick your battles. Mike Badnarick or death? I'm not leading that charge against the grain.
Mike Badnarik or death eh? well, not so much in the physical sense more in the constitutional sense which is america's whole identity, why is it you
wave the flag? what does it represent? current day politics or the rich history of this country and what those people fought for, attained, and made
it almost impossible for current day politicians to change??
It all goes back to the consitution.. Isn't that document known for the great experiment? We'ren't you you told it's the people's responsibilty
to preserve it, and if you can't do that then you don't deserve it?
It appears it's going through the process of a slow and painful death, and it's affecting everybody. Democrats and republicans want to pick through
the amendments, change them to suit their agenda's and watch how it affects people in this nation. Patriot Act? Free speech zones? The Brady law? The
over regulation of free speech on the air waves (fcc)? Media bias, control, and propaganda, not having to tell the truth to the people? Making the
people believe that the federal government is the more powerful force in the country, not the states and not the people. Legislating morality,
enforcing it through military might, take waco for example, that was total and utter bs what happened there, democrats across the board justified
those actions of the clinton administration, that was the biggest slap in the face to american principles and the people, let's not forget about ruby
ridge, holy sht balls, if you go back through the years and see all the unconstitutional/criminal acts this government has commited on both sides of
the political spectrum I don't know how anybody could continue voting both parties. It's like it all gets swept under the rug, there is no three
strikes your out, it's continuous head bashing against the wall hoping for a different outcome... It's insanity!
A progressive tax? You bet. Best thing since some guy invented sliced bread then had the patent swindled out from under him by a multinational
corporation who made all the money on it pushing Paris Hilton's bread stock up in the process while the US Government deployed armed forces to
protect her international wheat interests abroad.
Most income taxes are considered progressive, thats a nice way to white wash what it really is. Another wound in my side. We already have 3 taxes on
our paychecks (fed, state, and fica), the more you make the higher the taxes get, hell we should just be low rents and have mediocre jobs that way the
government can't get over on us. I can't believe your in favor of that. You keep using Paris Hilton to back your argument up, why don't you try
using somebody who has WORKED all their lives to get to where they are today, or would that weaken your argument, and then you would feel bad for
taking from somebody who has taken advantage of the free market and worked it over to the point where they could actually build their dream home in
the mountains and have bedrooms for all three of their children, go on vacations, and perhaps even travel the world twice over? That's not well
deserved? That bastard should be taxed more so then middle class and lower class all because his income is better? I'm sorry I just don't see the
logic in that.. That idea is the same as in canada, you get your shoes shined if your poor, and if your well off and worked hard your penalized for
it. not cool.
The top 2% probably get more "welfare" every day of the week
Probably?? You don't know for sure? How about ever two weeks if not every week their fica,fed, and state are half of their pay check, that's
welfare? thats well-un-fair. That boils ones blood. Paris Hilton doesn't even get a pay check, and if she does get one, it's because she wore a top
that exposed her flat chest and happened to have a hamburger in her mouth... She's lucky she doesn't have to work hard.
Common folks do, and common folks who work hard to gain wealth should not be penalized for making more then poor or middle class all those classes
have made choices, some who are poor or middle are still working hard to attain their wealth, some of them are having problems, but you cannot just
focus all your attention on the ones who are having problems and penalize the ones that aren't to help those poor folks out... middle upper class and
upper class are still people, they too have families, they just happened to go to school longer, and they just happened to invent something that made
them lot's of money or they run their own businesses which takes alot of work and time out of their day... again thats not fair to just ASSUME taxes
don't affect them or wouldn't cheese them off...
They have lobbyists they pay millions to get their billions and favorable legislation for practically anything they want. Drilling in
national parks? Sure! Pipeline in an unfriendly dictatorship? We'll get right on that. Anything else the government can do for you today Miss Hilton?
Bail out your drinking buddy Neal Bush? Sure! What's another $153
billion to Texas Savings & Loans at this point...
Your talking about one extreme i'm talking about the common folks who've made a life for themself. Those people you are talking about are
criminals, money launderer's, gambler's, and dirty businessmen, they don't need to be taxed to death, they need to go to jail, get heavy fines, and
have everything taken away from them. And quit using Hilton, she hasn't done SHT!
8.2 million households with kids ate today. God damnit!
I mean the whole US Department of Agriculture budget is $19.4 freaking billion
You just blame that one of cirumstance... There are various reasons for that, government isn't and shouldn't be at the helm for that. This is where
your logic is flawed.. Your mad because the department of Agriculture's budget is $19.4 billions dollars, so only 8.2 million households w/ kids ate
today... How is that the government fault?? Did the government pop those kids out of it's over sized crotch? Blaming doesn't do anything, why
aren't the parents self sufficient? Why aren't the parents doing all that they can to ensure their children get their vitamins and minerals? What's
the hold up?
And they don't even get around to "Supporting a Compassionate Society" by...
They??? The government? The government isn't there for that kind of thing, at least it wasn't mean to be in the beginning.. We've given this
government to much power over the people, American's individually are compassionate, American's help out w/ homeless people, w/ poor people,
donating clothes, money, canned good, to housing projects, ect... Why is it the government always gets blamed for not being compassionate enough?
It's not their job! Stop giving them so much credence.
Providing important nutrition programs, including the Food Stamp, School Lunch, School Breakfast, and Child and Adult Care Food programs, and
the Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children. And Helping tenants displaced from traditional rural multifamily housing
Look at all these programs... I'd seriously like to know how much money goes to those programs and how much money gets paid to the government workers
of those programs, and administrative costs and overhead...
Right now the pentagon is overspending your tax dollars, a few years ago ice cube trays cost .80 cents, today those same ice cubes are $18, coffee
maker's a few years back ( i dont even know why you need new coffee makers if you just purchased them a couple years ago) cost $20, the same ones
today cost $40 dollars... So this is the kind of spending governments do. And I wouldn't be surprised if the same kind of horsesht goes on w/ those
Government cannot budget responsibly, they see the tax dollars come rolling in and they have a hay day w/ it, people get over payed, administrative
costs go up, they put themselves in debt from over spending, ect.. It's a circular problem and it won't go away until we cut government spending
through our tax dollars. The government has created one too many programs, if we hired auditer's in every government agency we would all have heart
attacks to see how much money they've wasted.
Shouldn't local and state government set up those programs so you can at least see where your tax money is being spent, if you going to enforce
programs at all?
Originally posted by RANT
No. I love talking about the facts. You need to get over it though because every angry white man (and woman) in this country has been full of # ever
since Reagan fed it to them with a spoon. Your outrage is a planted diversion from the real culprits. FAT CATS and lobbyists.
I know about the fat cats and the lobbyists, but your generalizing, these fat cats and lobbyists aren't the kind of common folks i'm talking about.
Your talking about corporate America and the jackasses who don't give a sht about america, american's, and the consitution, i'd like throw tennis
balls at the crotch of every single one of those aholes. Another reason why I wouldn't vote democrat is because people like you who divide
american's into black and white like you just did create more social warfare and strife, more of a mess and alot more resources to clean it up.
You know, those "hard workers" you're protecting so. Why even hire lobbyists when the lower middle class (that think they're rich because
they watch Fox) lobbies for them?
They do do they? That's odd, haven't heard that one before... I thought those people were called yuppied back in the 80s before fox even came out?
Not to mention i'm pretty sure those that are middle class are aware of their financial situation more so then yourself and know they aren't making
their millions because they have mouths to feed, bills to pay, and necessities to buy, and not that much money left over for trips and basketball
Here's another thing about the top 2%. Only 2% of us can get there. That's true no matter what you read on a lottery ticket.
That's a pretty negative comment, and i'm sorry you think that way, acquiring wealth is pretty simple if you have the persistence, long term goals,
right frame of mind, and basic investing skills. Many folks partake in the art of Compounding, if you can't start there, you can start small, with
small deals ie/ portfolio income/real estate which will eventually allow you to move onto bigger deals, Bigger portfolio's, bigger real estate deals,
various business purchases, which will give you enough passive income to allow that money to work for you, not the other way around. There are so many
outlet's when it comes to investing I could go on, but 2% of american's can only get there according to you? That is horsesht, and I find that very
short sighted thinking, your telling me I think black and white?
Can you explain to me why democrats always seem to be pandering to these kinds of people?
Children and the middle class? 98% of America? Cause they're cute? WTF?
So your saying 98% of American's are poor or on welfare?
Spewing bs about how they need new programs for them, and how they promise if they are elected the health care system will be one of which
won't cost them anything.
I would vote for that guy, but he never ran. Where the hell do you get the democratic platform from anyway? Mike Savage?
John Kerry, that who... And most of all the other democratic presidential candidates that ran. They promise all these wonderful things such as free
health care, and prgorams for this, and programs for that, but they never say where tha tmoney's going ot come from...
And then Kerry talked about a tax cut, a tax cut?! Oh, thats cute, we're all going to get tax cuts, free health care, and programs to ensure every
American is taken care of! That's rich... Maybe if Tersea Hines was going to pay for all of us it could work out that way like it did for him, but I
doubt that. He has no real grasp on reality that dude.
That Cadillac driving welfare queen making $50K a year still bugging ya is it? News flash: Reagan was a liar. He waged class (and race) warfare by
sticking that bunk in your brain. That's why you people are so angry. That and conservatives had absolute power the past 5 years and
raised welfare instead of cut it.
It appears you are the one that is angry that conservatives have had power for the last 5 years, I don't know enough about Reagan as I was still in
diapers and in canada, so I can't be mad or agree w/ your fact that you think he was a liar. You think he waged class and race warfare? You could be
right, I noticed in your posts that you are guilty of the same thing you accuse him of and at the same time I can make the argument that Carter and
Johnson both were guilty of that same thing as well...
Executive conclusion: I'm right, you're wrong. Conservatives are easily fooled by people on the TV. And Libertarians suck eggs.
Well Democrats suck rotten eggs and look like cottage cheese, if any party is going to bring america back from the ruins, corruption, and over
spending of tax payer money it's going to be the libertarians. They're going to have to make lot's cuts, go over so much paper work, shut down
certain government agencies that are unconstitutional to have in the first place, they're going to have to withdraw military from various countries,
they're going to have to re enact any law that was taken away that was based on american's freedom, and many people will be released from prison on
drug charges like carrying 2 joints on them, or dealing, much money will be saved because the war on drugs will be no more, our relationship with
other countries around the world will be mended and we'll start over and learn to leave everybody alone and NOT PUSH FOR A UNI-POLAR WORLD w/ America
at the top of every decision making process, power to the states will be re-instated as well at the local level, federal/centralized government will
be cut so low people will have faith in their country again and realise they have more power then the government, criminals will still be treated as
criminals, but the ones who were making personal choices that only affected their person will be set free. Need I go on?
Both dominant parties suck, the above is the way America is supposed to be, if you don't like that way and think it sucks you should move to
Now. If you'd like to win me over, tell me how the Libertarian Party would have handled the space race? Oh that's right, we'd still be
working on the car.
The space race?
How immature was that...
First off, the private sector and the government are two totally different things, if people wanted to go into space it would happen, the car
wouldn't of been invented as it's not the federal government's job to create and invent objects such as that. The private sector is what created
cars, but thats the democratic train of thought shining through once again, thinking thats all the government doing...
I know, I know. Free market. We'd rent rides from the Soviets. Super!
You can't have and hold a strong argument based off an element of pre-supposition due to mis-information.
Nowadays people put too much stock into their government when it comes time to create,innovate, maintain, and show it off to the world to gain
supremacy over other countries. The people in that former government shouldn't of been so immature and aggressive...
Who's to say that situation would of even happened at all if a different brand of government would of been in washington? Any government that is
willing to flex their arm on another country wouldn't hesitate to flex it on you. And I can honestly say that a libertarian styled government
wouldn't of even been in that situation, they would tried to avoid it, not meet it head on and gamble with the possibility of a full fledged nuclear
Back then the soviet's were threatening america I understand that, and Libertarian's would of done everything they could of to protect you, and I,
the homeland, they would tried different constitutional avenue's to make piece. Apart from that, the soviet union would of fallen anyway because they
had no incoming monies, trade, ect, it was continuous circulation, and they wouldn't of been able to maintain the kind of stature they were trying to
acquire to show off to the world. That place was a mess, the only thing that made tha tcountry look good was the military, and even then they could
barely afford to keep it running. They would of used up all their resources if a war would of broke out and they would of had to surrender to a free
and open marketed country... So don't be bashing the free market.
Apart from that, your pretty much agreeing w/ that former 'conservative' administration, you should go wash your mouth out with soap.