Never forgive Japan

Gents, I assure you that I am saying this entirely as a well meaning fellow member, and not as any attempt to stop the conversation, however I think it would be a very good idea for somebody to start a separate thread about Korea, and the ROC vs PRC, etc. It would be a shame if somebody were slapped with a warn for going off topic, as could very well happen given the politically charged nature of the topic.
Once that topic is open, I would be glad to discuss who was and was not the aggressor in the Korean Conflict.

Originally posted by NotheRaGe
And yes the UN troops never went across the border. They were nearing it not not over it when Mao decides to send PLA(which he regards like his dogs to do his tasks) to split Korea into 2 and re-establish communism in North Korea again. UN decides to sign a peace treaty when chinese troops were fought back from the South. Because of this millions are dying of starvation in that communist country. Remember that it was around 20 years later that this PRC which went against UN is allowed to join UN security council! It is the chinese troops who are the aggressor, not UN troops who went in to intervene the communists' invasion.

Yeah, that's why MacArthur wasn't able to win the war Truman wanted a slaughter of American soldiers at the expense of fattening his own pocket. War in regards to when the enemy you are fighting finds refuge in a foreign country willing to safe house them, they too should become the enemy and warrant an attack. Instead Truman was a complete moron and decided that allowing the Chinese to slowly mobilize over 300k troops a much better idea. If MacArthur could have had his way, the war would have been over in at least 3 years. Instead, now we have North Korea which starves to death tens of thousand of its people every couple of months and many American soldiers gave their lives for a truce. Well....and MacArthur wanted to use anuke, but that was only a marginal issue compared to what he wanted achieve.

I've created a thread for the Korea discussion, since this thread was really intended to discuss whether or not Japan has really changed and can be trusted/forgiven.

politics.abovetopsecret.com...

chinawhite,

Thank you for answering my questions, though I was a bit disappointed that your answers were the usual parrotted statements I hear from the majority of Chinese members on ATS.

I was hoping to see some insight past the political tools used by the CCP to divert your country's attention away from the true villains of the piece. The standard reply regards forgiving Japan is that:

(a) They are not sorry for what they did.

I don't claim to be an expert on Asian people. I think only Asian people could possibly hope to understand Asian people. Just an observation. However saying sorry and paying compensations don't seem to be enough for China, yet all the other countries in S.E. Asia seem happy enough.

From listening to Japanese people I think they are more sorry for letting themselves be fooled into thinking the Emporer was a god of some sort and having them do what they did. The most telling statement I heard was from an old guy who described the feeling after hearing the surrender statement being read out by the Emperor. He said there was a fundamental change in the attitude of the ordinary Japanese person. They commited to peace and commited to never being the puppets of any other war-monger that came along.

Sure, their are some right-wing nut-jobs who would love to see the glory days of the Empire again. Turn over a few rocks in any other country in the world and you will no doubt find similar thinking people. However, where are they going to get their foot-soldiers from, when the majority of Japanese are sorry for being dragged into the last mess? Once bitten, twice shy, anyone?

(b) They "worship" war criminals at Yasukuni shrine.

They pay respect to the dead at Yasukuni. Yet you would have them desecrate their resting place. Good or bad let them rest and peace and let whatever entity reigns over them, judge them. It is not man's place.

The Japanese regard Yasukuni as a symbol of their commitment to peace. They regulary visit the millions of souls interred their and reaffirm their commitment to peace by saying "Not again".

(c) Both apoligies and compensation are never sufficient.

There is no apology or words that could ever change the mind of people who are commited to never accepting an apology. You cheapen the memory of those killed and harmed by even taking compensation. By declaring it is never enough you admit to the fact that your aims are far from noble.

Being asked to apoligise over and over again, only cheapens the apology. Even if they were once truely sorry, having China use the whole issue as a political stick is only going to make the Japanese apathethic to your cause. What do you think ordinary Japanese think of you right now? Are they thinking, "Gosh, I am really sorry for the 17th time and will gladly give my taxes to a corrupt government for the sins of my grandparents" or are they thinking "Clean up your own act China before you go questioning our commitment to peace"???

(d) They white-wash their history.

Every country likes to paint their history in the best possible light. I am sure many examples could be provided for your viewing pleasure. The point is, all Japanese know what they did and aren't very proud of it. Having China harp on about it for less than noble reasons only causes them to view history in a faded fashion.

howmuchisthedoggy,
on point B)
If the German people did the same for Hitler, et al it would not be accepted in Europe by a majority of Nations.

D) Saying 3000people died when the numbers are nearer to 30million and then saying it was for the betterment of the Chinese would not be accepted if the German people said it about the Jews.

Originally posted by Odium
If the German people did the same for Hitler, et al it would not be accepted in Europe by a majority of Nations.

Of course it wouldn't, and rightly so.

However the shrine at Yasukuni (which I myself have visited) is not an individual grave where people can go and worship specific people. It is a mass shrine dedicated to all war dead and used as a focal point for reaffirming the idea that these people died for bad reasons.

Having the war criminals in there as well is a method of reminding the people visiting of that factor in their past. Going to a shrine of war dead and war criminals and pledging "Never again" is a very sincere act of contrition, as far as I am concerned.

I would liken Yasukuni to Auschwitz, or Changi (which I have also visited) more than anything. People don't go to Auschwitz to honour the Nazis or celebrate the horrors that occurred there, they go there to solemnly remember the events and pledge the same thing never happens again. The only people who can't see the similarity with going to Yasukuni are those who have an axe to grind with Japan.

D) Saying 3000people died when the numbers are nearer to 30million and then saying it was for the betterment of the Chinese would not be accepted if the German people said it about the Jews.

Yet there are a larger number of people in Europe who think the Holocaust never happened than the number of people in Japan who try and kid themselves that many millions died at their hands.

I see similarites between Germany and Japan's case. There are plenty of people trying to milk the Germans as the Chinese are trying to milk the Japanese, in both financial and political ways.

B]

Source
But Yasukuni Shrine gives a different explanation. According to "Yasukuni Daihyakka" (Yasukuni encyclopedia), a pamphlet published by the shrine, war criminals are people "who were cruelly executed because they were falsely accused as 'war criminals' in a one-sided tribunal held in form only at the hands of the Allied Forces (the United States, Britain, the Netherlands, China and others) that fought against Japan." It calls them "Showa martyrs."

The shrine stands by the belief that, to begin with, the war "had to be fought in order (for Japan) to prosper together with Asian countries."

www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk...

D)

I've never seen the German Government deny it though nor have I seen them print text books. Japan's Government does nor have I ever seen the German Government or any teach that WW2 was "good" for the Jewish people [except statements made by former Israeli PMs and members of Irgun].

[edit on 22/8/2005 by Odium]

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
I don't claim to be an expert on Asian people. I think only Asian people could possibly hope to understand Asian people. Just an observation. However saying sorry and paying compensations don't seem to be enough for China, yet all the

what compensation. china never asked for it. we gave up that right in 1972. these are indiviuals not a country

anything offical. its always a indiviual apology.

other countries in S.E. Asia seem happy enough.

umm. what south-eastern countries.

you mean these people are fine for what happened. their compensation
www.cnn.com...

They pay respect to the dead at Yasukuni. Yet you would have them desecrate their resting place. Good or bad let them rest and peace and let whatever entity reigns over them, judge them. It is not man's place.

A class convited war crimmials shouldn't be put in a shrine celbrating peace. tell any jew that their a shrine worshipping hitler.

i dont hate them for that. i hate the prime misiter for going there on state visits. do it on your own time. when have these anti-japnese protestors flared up. on during the visits to the Yasukuni shrine

The Japanese regard Yasukuni as a symbol of their commitment to peace. They regulary visit the millions of souls interred their and reaffirm their commitment to peace by saying "Not again".

like i said just before. move the convicted A class crimimals to the rubbish trip

Being asked to apoligise over and over again, only cheapens the apology.

we dont mind.

Even if they were once truely sorry, having China use the whole issue as a political stick is only going to make the Japanese apathethic to your cause. What do you think ordinary Japanese think of you right now? Are they thinking,

when has china used the issue?

"Gosh, I am really sorry for the 17th time and will gladly give my taxes to a corrupt government for the sins of my grandparents" or are they thinking "Clean up your own act China before you go questioning our commitment to peace"???

when they fell sorry what do they do????? nothing, how is that feeling sorry.

you say that japanese feel sorry for the atrocities in asia. but then go visit their monkeys that did it. Yeah thats really showing remorse

the PRC gave up its right to get compensation. we never asked for it. its indiviuals that want compensation. they should get it. japs are pigs.

Every country likes to paint their history in the best possible light. I am sure many examples could be provided for your viewing pleasure. The point is, all Japanese know what they did and aren't very proud of it. Having China harp on about it for less than noble reasons only causes them to view history in a faded fashion.

well painting a picture of the japanese invasion of asia as them helping asian in their fight againest foriginers is the equalivent to dancing on their graves

Originally posted by Odium
B]

Source
But Yasukuni Shrine gives a different explanation. According to "Yasukuni Daihyakka" (Yasukuni encyclopedia), a pamphlet published by the shrine.........

It shouldn't surprise anyone to know that the same people who wrote and compiled the controversial History text are the same people who run the Shrine war museum and publish the sort of pap quoted above. Not quite indicitive of the attitude of the general population.

Source
Of course, the view of the Japanese government, which accepted the results of the Tokyo tribunal and signed the San Francisco Peace Treaty, is different.

The government are a seperate entity to the people who continue to spew this nationalistic rubbish.

I've never seen the German Government deny it though nor have I seen them print text books. Japan's Government does
[edit on 22/8/2005 by Odium]

Eh, no.

Japan's government does not publish or print those text books. That is done privately by the group mentioned above. Regional school districts then choose their own text books from various publishers. The fact that less than 1% have taken on this particular text book should speak volumes.

If every country was held responsible for a tiny minority of nut-jobs we would get nothing done.

Yet there are a larger number of people in Europe who think the Holocaust never happened than the number of people in Japan who try and kid themselves that many millions died at their hands.

are those people german or other nations.

I see similarites between Germany and Japan's case. There are plenty of people trying to milk the Germans as the Chinese are trying to milk the Japanese, in both financial and political ways.

its not milking the germans they commited the crimes and paid for it. while the japanese neither paid one cent to the victims or compensated them in any other way

read my post before comparising germany and japan

howmuchisthedoggy, only a small minority of the schools?

The Alleged "Nanking Massacre": Japan's rebuttal to China's forged claims (Hardcover) by Tadao Takemoto, Yasuo Ohara

I suggest that book as well as this book

Systems of Higher Education: Japan (Systems of Higher Education Series) (Paperback) by Katsuya Narita

---

If the Japanese Government did not agree with the text books they can't actually be published and used in the class-rooms. They have State-controlled curriculum.

In fact really it doesn't matter how many have accepted the books, the Government still allows it. How many have excepted it are the ones that teach about it?

My College doesn't teach about the U.S.S.R. so they don't have books on it, another College might not have them on Boom and Bust because they do not actually teach the period.

The fact their Government allows it to be taught in School.
If the German Government allowed people to claim only 3000 Jewish people were killed the international community would be up in arms. It's political hypocrisy as normal.

here doggy. i through you would like this read this

www.atimes.com...

I personally believe that the chinamen's hatred towards Japan is the result of CCP propaganda and education. Even though it is at least 2 generations after the world war 2 took place, the ones we see on TV protesting on the streets are youngsters, the young generation. Compare our society with theirs. Unless CCP stop seeding hatred into the minds of young chinese, this problem will never be solved.

Opps Chinawhite i thought u appear only in the aviation threads, but nevertheless glad to see u here. As for the Taiwan/China issue I do not see Taiwan should be under CCP control until ur "liberation" army set foot on the island. It is still under the ROC regime. All i see of CCP's stance on this is unjust and unreasonable. Claiming a piece of land without even controlling it is juz ridiculous. Opps i hav gone off topic. Let's not discuss it in this thread anymore.

Originally posted by chinawhite
here doggy. i through you would like this read this

www.atimes.com...

I know who Ishihara is. He is Japan's biggest idiot and is regulary wheeled out when people want to make a point about how racist Japan is. It is a racist country, I have been a gaijin here in Japan and know all about it. But it is no more racist than any other country in the world. You have idiot politicians like this all over the world. Moneyed bigots who wouldn't see the light of day were it not for the finance and family connections they have. His son is actually quite a charming guy and very popular on TV here.

So 1 idiot in 120 million and you condemn the whole country? Come on!

Politics in Japan is changing. The old guard are dying off and the next generation are more concerned with jobs and standards of living than they are interested in the outside world.

Nothing I can say will change the minds of people on this board who have cemented their image of Japan. Whether through propoganda or a very selective memory, which includes leaving out their own country's dirty laundry as well as forgetting all the positive contributions Japan has made through technology and culture, there are countries who would rather diss Japan than face the skeletons in their own closet.

Remember the song from the South Park movie? Blame Canada (or wherever) before someone thinks of blaming us. This is a tactic almost every country in the world uses and we here at ATS have a duty to poke holes in these stereotypes and discourage the disemination of such vile and hateful propaganda. "Japs are Pigs"??? chinawhite, how do you expect anyone to respect your opinion if this is your argument?

Originally posted by Odium
howmuchisthedoggy, only a small minority of the schools?

Yes, a very small minority. Less than 1% I think. Most schools would rather not have the hassle as any district who takes these books on board will be put under intense media scrutiny. They would rather concentrate on more serious education issues such as classroom breakdown and stay-at-home kids than deal with the ramblings of an extreme right-wing group.

The Alleged "Nanking Massacre": Japan's rebuttal to China's forged claims (Hardcover) by Tadao Takemoto, Yasuo Ohara

I suggest that book as well as this book

Systems of Higher Education: Japan (Systems of Higher Education Series) (Paperback) by Katsuya Narita

---

I haven't read the latter, I will check it out, thanks for the recommend.

As for the former, I have read and compared both it and the book it references. it was a good few years ago, so pardon my rusty memory. The original book was quite horrific, though, much like the Nanking movie doing the rounds in China at the minute (check it out-wooooo-propaganda) it was built to shock. How much of it was true though? I feel Takemoto's book did poke holes in the original, but it was guilty of watering down what happened too much. The truth is somewhere between these two accounts, I feel.

If the Japanese Government did not agree with the text books they can't actually be published and used in the class-rooms. They have State-controlled curriculum.

In fact really it doesn't matter how many have accepted the books, the Government still allows it. How many have excepted it are the ones that teach about it?

Good point, but I am not sure it is as cut and dry as that. Look at what is going on in the US at the minute regards teaching Creationism. If it was a State-Controlled curriculum, wouldn't they be deleting evolution from the books? Japan is the same, certain areas can decide what they teach and while they do have to pass some standard, it is more a case of free-will among school districts.

The fact their Government allows it to be taught in School.

The fact that most schools don't get as far as the WWII chapter in the books probably means it doesn't really matter to them.

If the German Government allowed people to claim only 3000 Jewish people were killed the international community would be up in arms. It's political hypocrisy as normal.

Funny, I thought it was freedom of speech, one of the aspects of democracy. The same democracy the US instilled into Japan after WWII. Now they are using it and you are complaining?

we here at ATS have a duty to poke holes in these stereotypes and discourage the disemination of such vile and hateful propaganda

Here here.

Here in Australia, we have an issue which raises similar questions. In the 1960s, many Aboriginal children were taken away from their parents and forced to live in state-run reservations. There is a significant movement to force the current government to apologise for these actions. Most Australians however, are opposed to such a move for reasons which I am sure are shared by a majority of current-generation Japanese - "I wasn't there, I didn't do anything wrong, I don't even share the same beliefs as the people who did do this awful thing".

How many generations must prostrate themselves and declare that they are sorry for the sins of their father's father's? Of course we can never forget what happened, but it seems to me that the reason we don't forget is to ensure that what happened never happens again, a stance that the Japanese people seem to have held to quite admirably.

[edit on 22/8/05 by Jeremiah25]

Originally posted by Odium
howmuchisthedoggy, only a small minority of the schools?

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
Yes, a very small minority. Less than 1% I think. Most schools would rather not have the hassle as any district who takes these books on board will be put under intense media scrutiny. They would rather concentrate on more serious education issues such as classroom breakdown and stay-at-home kids than deal with the ramblings of an extreme right-wing group.

Of course, but even one-percent is far too high. To be honest, any of them teaching it are too high. Especailly when there are photo-graphic evidence and videos of what went on in China at the hands of the Japanese troops. To claim this was in the best interests to me - it's sickening to be honest.

But then my grand-parents were directly involved in this side of the war [not in Europe but Asia] and is something that stil bothers my grand-father to this day.

Originally posted by Odium
If the Japanese Government did not agree with the text books they can't actually be published and used in the class-rooms. They have State-controlled curriculum.

Originally posted by Odium
In fact really it doesn't matter how many have accepted the books, the Government still allows it. How many have excepted it are the ones that teach about it?

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
Good point, but I am not sure it is as cut and dry as that. Look at what is going on in the US at the minute regards teaching Creationism. If it was a State-Controlled curriculum, wouldn't they be deleting evolution from the books? Japan is the same, certain areas can decide what they teach and while they do have to pass some standard, it is more a case of free-will among school districts.

Well the text-book in question was actually re-sent to the publisher to have a set amount of edits done on it - I do believe it was in the higher-hundreds near to a thousand, but it has been a while since I got to see the article.

The Japanese take their education system very seriously - more so than a lot of other Nations. They make sure everything goes through the state first so they can keep a high-standard which they do have. [One of the best in the World in fact because of it.]

Originally posted by Odium
The fact their Government allows it to be taught in School.

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
The fact that most schools don't get as far as the WWII chapter in the books probably means it doesn't really matter to them.

Well none of us know? I only know one person who got taught this in Japan and they did mention WW2 [actually a whole module] and primarily it was slanted to make Japan look good.

Originally posted by Odium
If the German Government allowed people to claim only 3000 Jewish people were killed the international community would be up in arms. It's political hypocrisy as normal.

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
Funny, I thought it was freedom of speech, one of the aspects of democracy. The same democracy the US instilled into Japan after WWII. Now they are using it and you are complaining?

But then you have to ask yourself;
Would they be re-elected?

This is where the problem is, several people in Japan have made such statements and the people have put them in charge. It's like Chirac and we all know he is going because of his statemetns. (Less than 30% last I got to see the polls).

I would very much expect the same to happen in Germany but in Japan it doesn't. In fact it doesn't seem to be a major problem for them to say anything and the public accept it.

Originally posted by NotheRaGe
I personally believe that the chinamen's hatred towards Japan is the result of CCP propaganda and education. Even though it is at least 2 generations after the world war 2 took place, the ones we see on TV protesting on the streets are youngsters, the young generation. Compare our society with theirs. Unless CCP stop seeding hatred into the minds of young chinese, this problem will never be solved.

and the south koreans are on propaganda. the malaysians are on propaganda. and the rest of south-east asia.??

where are you from. i will then asked you a event your country suffered from. would you like that??

Originally posted by Odium
But then my grand-parents were directly involved in this side of the war [not in Europe but Asia] and is something that stil bothers my grand-father to this day.

Soldiers of an enemy army are hardly the best ambassadors for any country. Look at how the Iraqis view the US and the British right now. Do you want to make your own impression or let them have the impression the invading soldiers give, warts and all? Same with the Japanese.

I am sure if your Grand-Father were to come to Japan now he would see the side of the Japanese I see having lived among them for a number of years. Many other POWs, etc., have visited Japan since to talk to the Japanese youth about their experiences and have been pleasantly surprised at the friendship and warmth shown to them. It is unfair to judge an entire people on the actions of a small section of their grand-parents. 60 years is a long time. People change, countries too.

Originally posted by Odium
Well none of us know? I only know one person who got taught this in Japan and they did mention WW2 [actually a whole module] and primarily it was slanted to make Japan look good.

I have in front of me right now a Japanese History text and I can tell you, it doesn't slant the facts either good nor bad, it just gives the facts. They are a bit sparse though, but it is concise enough. The person I got it off said they never even got that far in the book, so different schools/districts have different curriculums. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a "Poor little defensless Japan" slant in them, they love being the victim.

Originally posted by Odium
But then you have to ask yourself;
Would they be re-elected?

Bush and Blair both re-elected, go figure......

In fact it doesn't seem to be a major problem for them to say anything and the public accept it.

The thing is they don't and show their disatisfaction by refusing to use the books. Trust me, your average Joes here don't listen too much to the right-wing nutters.

Why don't they say anything about it? Typical Japanese personality trait at work. They would rather avoid confrontation and hassle. Ignore it and it might go away.

By chance did anyone see the BBC2 show last night on Japan before and after World War 2?