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I'm clueless about politics

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posted on Aug, 15 2005 @ 08:18 AM
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Well, I hate to say this, but I don't know anything about politics. I've been one of those people who only listened to the news for the weather but just happened to catch a few minutes of the stuff that was really important. And I usually just vote Democrat for two reasons: most of my family are Democrats and its said that that's the party that actually cares about African americans.

Lately I've been surfing through the Wikipeidia, reading about the political process, the different parties, etc. I've skimmed through a few threads here too. It's all very overwhelming. I'm looking for some good books or informative web pages.

Also, here's a few thoughts and questions that I've had:

*I know a little bit about Condalisa Rice (sp?). A lot of other african americans say she is a sell out and it seems that the general opinion of her is that she is Bush's or the Republican's puppet. Of course, I'm just repeating things that I've heard. However, I admire her because of her accomplishments. Again, I've heard that she speaks several languages and earned a doctorate degree at a younger age than most people.

*I want to know more about our foreign relations. Why does the French dislike us? Does everyone really think that we are fat and lazy?

*I want to know more details about the whats going on in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.

*Why are does it seem that Democrats and Republicans are the only parties. Just looking over the stat sheet I found that most of their views and ideas lined up more with the Green party (if I remember right). But everyone says if I vote for them its either a wasted vote or a vote for Bush.


*What's going on with Taxes and Social Security?

Edited because I can't type. Fixed some typos and wierd sentances.

[edit on 15-8-2005 by Shaione]




posted on Aug, 15 2005 @ 08:37 AM
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Well, you have a lot of great questions there! And you'll probably get 2 definitive sets of answers, depending on who is answering. Most issues in US Politics today can be seen from 2 distinct sides.

As regards, the 2 parties, you might find this an interesting thread:
politics.abovetopsecret.com...

Otherwise, I would advise you read, read and read some more. ATS is a great place to read. Check out the links and take responsibility to educate yourself. Don’t believe everything you read. Don’t live another minute in ignorance.

Realize that in this country today, the 2 dominant parties are Democrats and Republicans and the others (sadly) are so small, they don’t - at this time - carry much influence.

I’ll see what other answers you get here and maybe chime back in, but in my opinion, you can’t just get a political education ‘dumped’ on you. You’ll have to read and discern and find out what you think is the truth. Remember, though, there are basically 2 conflicting points of view and the TRUTH is probably somewhere in between.

Good on you for reaching out and denying your ignorance!



posted on Aug, 15 2005 @ 10:21 AM
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Well, I’m not too busy this morning.


Condoleezza Rice is a brilliant and accomplished woman. (Her race is insignificant to me, except that perhaps Bush gets to’ kill 2 birds with one stone’, by having a (1)Black (2)Woman in his immediate administration). Whether or not she is a Bush Administration puppet is entirely a matter of opinion. I think she is. I think she’s an extremely intelligent person interested in political power and climbing the political ladder. I think she suspected more about 9/11 than she admitted and that if she had ‘come out’ things might have been a lot different on that day. Of course I believe that’s true about a few people in the administration.

This is from her 9/11 Commission Statement:
www.cnn.com...
RICE: I remember very well that the president was aware that there were issues inside the United States. He talked to people about this. But I don't remember the al Qaeda cells as being something that we were told we needed to do something about.
BEN-VENISTE: Isn't it a fact, Dr. Rice, that the August 6 PDB warned against possible attacks in this country? And I ask you whether you recall the title of that PDB?
RICE: I believe the title was, "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside the United States."
Now, the...
BEN-VENISTE: Thank you.
RICE: No, Mr. Ben-Veniste...
BEN-VENISTE: I will get into the...
RICE: I would like to finish my point here.
BEN-VENISTE: I didn't know there was a point.
RICE: Given that -- you asked me whether or not it warned of attacks.
BEN-VENISTE: I asked you what the title was.
RICE: You said, did it not warn of attacks. It did not warn of attacks inside the United States. It was historical information based on old reporting. There was no new threat information. And it did not, in fact, warn of any coming attacks inside the United States.



*I want to know more about our foreign relations. Why does the French dislike us? Does everyone really think that we are fat and lazy?


My opinion: You can no more group all the French into one basket than you can the people of the US or any country, race or religion. Some French hate us, sure. Some hate our leadership. Some hate our policies, some don’t care, some actually like the US, it’s people and (maybe even) it’s leadership. The US has a long history of being the world’s most powerful nation and sometimes that has meant being a bit of a bully, especially recently.

We do have a reputation around the world (and rightly so) of being spoiled, privileged, gluttonous, entitled, selfish consumers, especially where energy is concerned. Not to mention the reputation for bullying other countries and taking advantage when it serves us. To be fair, we also help with many humanitarian needs around the world.



*I want to know more details about the whats going on in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.


Again, you’re going to get 2 different answers. Very generally:

-The ‘right’ thinks we’re over there fighting terrorism to make our country safer. They think we’re doing the right thing by catching, imprisoning and killing radical Muslims in a legal, moral ‘War on Terror’. They think the Iraqi insurgents are terrorists who hate America and must be annihilated. They believe we cannot leave without finishing the job, and support our presence there regardless of how long it takes or how much it costs.

-The ‘left’ thinks we’re using 9/11 as an excuse to get control of the Middle East and their oil. They think we’re abusing our power and abusing and torturing people and disregarding the Geneva Conventions and International Law in an illegal and immoral war that is based on lies. They think the Iraqi insurgents are mostly simply Iraqi citizens who are fighting for control of their country. Most agree that deposing Saddam was a Good Thing, but many think we should pull out of Iraq and let them work out their new government.

Details? Good luck. I’d like to know the details, too.




*Why are does it seem that Democrats and Republicans are the only parties. Just looking over the stat sheet I found that I views and ideas lined up more with the Green party (if I remember right). But everyone says if I vote for them its either a wasted vote or a vote for Bush.


My opinion: This country is more divided than it has ever been as regards political beliefs, and it’s divided right down the middle. These last 2 elections have been so close it was hard to call. The Democrat and Republican parties are pretty much diametrically opposed as far as issues. People tend to gravitate toward the largest group that aligns with most of their beliefs. So, if you have, say, exactly 60 million people in each group, and 500,000 left over, it really matters where those 500,000 votes go. That’s why people say if you vote for the Green Part, for example, it’s just wasted. Does that make sense?



*What's going on with Taxes and Social Security?


Sorry, I can’t answer this. I have no idea.



posted on Aug, 15 2005 @ 11:44 AM
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Thanks for replies - I wasn't expecting some so fast
.

Yea, I wasn't expected to get all of the info dumped on me. I'm going to take your advice and read, read, read.
I like to debate, so soon I maybe able to join in on some of the threads floating around here.

THanks again



posted on Aug, 15 2005 @ 07:25 PM
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Originally posted by Shaione
Again, I've heard that she speaks several languages and earned a doctorate degree at a younger age than most people.

Rice is interesting. I beleive that she studied international politics and focused on soviet politics, which is pretty revealing I think.


*I want to know more about our foreign relations.

Here's a good start:
Foreign Affairs.

Its a policy magazine for the US, but it covers a lot of current ground.


Why does the French dislike us?

The relations between the US and France are actually really complex and can get quite invovled. Basically, during the 60's, the french took a very sharp turn to the left, torwards socialism and (as many feared) outright communism. This put France and the US at odds, since the US had commited (via truman and re-affirmed with kennedy) to containment of communism. Also, the french were very much opposed (well, the youth in france) to US involvement in Vietnam, which was a colony of their global empire that they abandoned to the communists.


Does everyone really think that we are fat and lazy?

Probably not, not every is that perceptive.


*I want to know more details about the whats going on in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.

Rather large topic don't you think? What in particular?


*Why are does it seem that Democrats and Republicans are the only parties.

Because they are the biggest. But I don't think that it seems like they are the only parties. There is a Conservative Party, and 'conservatives' in general get talked about alot. There's also an actual Liberal Party too, and a lot of people are registered Conservatives or Liberals (and thus not REpublicans nor Democrats).


Just looking over the stat sheet I found that most of their views and ideas lined up more with the Green party (if I remember right)

I have to say you probably rember wrong, or perhaps you are familiar with a more 'popularized' version of what the party is about. Also, from what I understand, there are two green parties in the US, apparently the original went thru a split. Also, the Green party in the US is, apparently, quite different from the Green Parties in Europe.


. But everyone says if I vote for them its either a wasted vote or a vote for Bush.

It depends on how you look at it. First off, a vote for bush doesn't matter much now since he's already in his final term.
People say that a third party vote is a wasted vote, because; since the two big parties are the biggest, a smaller third party simply can't hope to compete with them. And when the election is really close, then a left leaning third party is 'stealing' votes from people who'd otherwise vote democratic, and this can occur in large enough numbers to have made a difference if they voted democrat. The same sort of thing happened to Bush the Elder in his campaign against Clinton, Ross Perot 'stole' the election from Bush because Perot attracted lots of otherwise right leaning and conservative voters.
On the other hand, if a third party is able to consistently represent a problem for one of the big two parties, then that might cause that Big Party to 'shift' over to them and adopt some of their policies. Imagine that the democrats loose to the republicans for another set of presidental and congressional elections, and largely because of 'radical anti-war parties' that 'steal' votes from them. Then the DEmocractic party would want to adopt a more anti-war stance. Oh wait, that's already happened.
Third Parties can be very effective in this way on a specific area. The Anti-Masonic League, for example, wasn't every going to become a Major Party, but it was rather successful, for a while anyway.

And, recall, of course, that the Republicans are a Third Party that eventually beat out one of the 'Big Parties'.



*What's going on with Taxes and Social Security?

The one is going up and the other is going down. One might not even be there but the other allways will.



posted on Aug, 16 2005 @ 12:28 AM
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Originally posted by Shaione
*I know a little bit about Condalisa Rice (sp?). A lot of other african americans say she is a sell out and it seems that the general opinion of her is that she is Bush's or the Republican's puppet. Of course, I'm just repeating things that I've heard. However, I admire her because of her accomplishments. Again, I've heard that she speaks several languages and earned a doctorate degree at a younger age than most people.



Source
Condoleezza "Condi" Rice (born November 14, 1954), has been the second United States Secretary of State in the administration of President George W. Bush since January 27, 2005. She is the first African American woman, the second African American (after Colin Powell), and the second woman (after Madeleine Albright) to serve in that post.

Before her appointment, Rice served as Bush's National Security Advisor during his first term. Prior to her service in the Bush administration, she was a Professor of Political Science at Stanford University and served as Provost from 1993 to 1999.

In August 2004 and again in August 2005, Forbes magazine named Rice the world's most powerful woman.


She is actually a very smart girl, she got her Master's at 20. However in my own views I see her as a mouth-piece, if she did run for President. I however see the Current President as a mouth piece for his Father.

So I am probably bias on this view.

As for her being seen as a "Sell-out". It depends on your side of the fence. There is still reference back to the term "House-Nigger" (and I bet that gets blanked out) in politics. Where a large portion of "Black people" feel as though anyone who works for the oppressive Government is just as bad.


Originally posted by Shaione
*I want to know more about our foreign relations. Why does the French dislike us? Does everyone really think that we are fat and lazy?


They don't hold a high-dislike for America. However things like changing "French Fries" to "Freedom Fries", etc, only helped to push French people away from the present administration. It's more a dislike for the Goverment than the people. (Well except the people who voted for him.)


Originally posted by Shaione
*I want to know more details about the whats going on in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.


What would you like to know?


Originally posted by Shaione
*Why are does it seem that Democrats and Republicans are the only parties. Just looking over the stat sheet I found that most of their views and ideas lined up more with the Green party (if I remember right). But everyone says if I vote for them its either a wasted vote or a vote for Bush.


politics.abovetopsecret.com...

Thread I wrote up on U.S. Politics using some of my existing articles from Wikipedia. Might help you out.



posted on Aug, 16 2005 @ 10:39 PM
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What do I want to know about Iraq...

Well this is personal too me. I realize the why we are over there - well I guess I do. Its somewhere between the fact that we wanted to help the Iraqis have peace and freedoms and maybe because both Bush Sr and Jr have personal vendettas. I say its personal, because I think too many of our people are dying (of course someone is going to say death is part of war - but its still sad to have your son/daughter killed. Also, its usually not the families of the victimes that use that phrase) One of my friends was over there (she's back now, thank goodness). But, why is it a bad idea to pull out? Hasn't a new leadership been formed already and a constitution being drafted? I've been ripping and running this past week and I haven't even picked up a paper.



posted on Aug, 16 2005 @ 10:52 PM
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Originally posted by Shaione
Well, I hate to say this, but I don't know anything about politics. [edit on 15-8-2005 by Shaione]


And, that makes you different from most in what way?

You come to this board, PTS, to ask a bunch of opinionated arses (Me being the king of them all!) what you should think and know about politics? Are you feeling ok? Maybe you need counciling!!


Seriously, I'm not sure that this is the place to learn about it. Most people here do not feel constrained by any basis of fact, but go on feelings, likes and dislikes. Oh, you'll get an ear-full, no doubt, but of what, I can't say in public!


Anyway, I love your honesty and I hope you stay a long time and have a lot of fun here. We all surely do!



posted on Aug, 17 2005 @ 12:36 AM
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Originally posted by Shaione
What do I want to know about Iraq...

Well this is personal too me. I realize the why we are over there - well I guess I do. Its somewhere between the fact that we wanted to help the Iraqis have peace and freedoms and maybe because both Bush Sr and Jr have personal vendettas.

I wouldn't buy into that (either one really). Personal vendettas? From what? The Elder Bush fought and won a war against Hussein when he was president, and I don't think that he got so worked up over it that over a decade later he connives with his son to occupy it.

The Coalition is in Iraq because of 911. Yes, bin ladin didn't have much to do with iraq. But 911 was a kick in the teeth for America, a nice little reminder that the world's as nasty now as it ever was. As a result, bin ladin's crew had to be hunted down and destroyed, but also, any state that was supporting international terrorism of the kind that can attack the US and West was on the hit list. Lots of states do, lebanon, iraq, saudi, iran, N. Korea, syria, libya, egypt, etc etc. So they all go onto a list. Then from that list, only iraq still had the tenacity and viciousness to do something about it, only iraq was already at the extreme limit of peaceful sanctions, and only iraq had, at last count, a large stockpile of chemical weapons and a nuclear and biological weapons program. Iraq was the natural target. There was nothing else that could be done with it. Iran isn't even under heavy sanctions. Syria hasn't received real Global Pressure, and places like Libya got put onto the UN Human Rights council (i think it was libya recently no?) in place of the US. Given all that, Iraq was the most sensible target. Plus, now the Coalition is in a good strategic position to put real pressure on Iran, since it has massed armies on two of its major borders, and is working closely with the Pakistani Dictatorship on the other major border. Also, Iraq was a country that had a very, very unpopular dictatorship, and that also had a population that was very modern and urbanized and professional, so it was one of the more likely ones for a 'militant democratization' programme to work in.


But, why is it a bad idea to pull out?

When the US pulled out of Vietnam, the whole country fell to the communist insurgency. Its still run by the communists But at least in Vietnam there was already an insurgency before the US got there. The US, quite simply, can not leave Iraq until the country is stable and the central government can make a serious effort to put down the insurgency. The insurgency only exists because of the US and Coalition, it can't leave now. At best what would happen, now, is that the country would break up into seperate dictatorships, at worst, it'd became an Islamic Republic in alliance with Iran. The US does not get to leave Iraq until they job is done, until the iraqis have a stable enough government and army that can supress the insurgency.


Hasn't a new leadership been formed already and a constitution being drafted?

The US didn't draft a consitution until years after the Declaration of Independance, and years after winning the war. And that was without an insurgency, and with a longstanding history of liberalism and democracy. Even then, the first consitution was a complete failure and had to be scrapped entirely, and another series of Congresses had to be held, with people comming from all across the country. Travel in Iraq right now is difficult enough, and it probably wouldn't even be possible for a consitutional congress to meet in iraq if the US and Coalition wasn't there. When the US finally finished its constitution, it had problems getting enough states to join it, and then almost immediately re-wrote the entire thing, enumerating all sorts of specific rights and what not. All those problems, with a relatively peaceful, secular (or at worst not vehemently sectarian), and governance minded public and no war. The Iraqis have all the problems that the Americans faced, plus rampant war, plus the youth haven't ever seen a free open society, plus deep blood feuds, a tribal social structure in many parts, and independance-seperatists movements throughout, plus political pressure from every interest in the world, and the fact that all this is going on while they are occupied by a foreign and 'clumsy' power. It'll be a miracle if the US is out of there in Bush's term, and the US simply can not leave until its finished.


Most people here do not feel constrained by any basis of fact, but go on feelings, likes and dislikes. Oh

Especially that Thomas Crowne guy, watch out for him, he's not right in the head!




posted on Aug, 17 2005 @ 07:38 AM
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Iraq…why did we go in?

Honestly, I think it’s a mixture of reason’s. It was not just Mr Bush’s vote to go to war but the whole of Congress, the Senate as well as his personal cabinet. Logically, I would say people like Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld were in fact doing it for highly personal reasons - oil and construction corporations. Many members of congress probably know they could get away with voting in favour on the war in Iraq and if it went wrong blame the Liberals or blame Bush. So it allowed them to make a quick pocket investment.

Did all of them do it for that reason? I doubt it. Some people probably believed Saddam was funding terrorists who wanted to attack American (Not Americans) when in fact he was only funding regional groups. Who in many peoples views are in fact not terrorists. For example, to many Jewish people of Israel, Levi and Irgun are not terrorists but Freedom fighters yet they do nothing different to what the Palestinians do. So this level of double-standards can’t be excepted. Especially by the Government’s or larger “Western” Nations like America. Who should identify either both of them as terrorist groups or neither.

Now it comes to a question that is hard for any of us to answer - should we pull out? In honest, I do not think we should at all. I am actually pro-war (removal of Saddam) however, I do not agree with the handling of the War. The American occupation has to shut off the borders of Iraq and should have done so from the start - people like Al Zarqawi are terrorists. They wish to hurt innocent people, who have primarily done nothing wrong to them (Iraqi people) and claim to be killing American soldiers.

However, there has to be a point where the American Government realises they can’t stay there forever. The Constitution has been pushed back by another week and the three main groups still will not shift. They have not had to work together for nearly 20years, with the Kurds being slaughtered for wanting independence.

Iraqi will take years. In honesty, the best thing might be for a Civil War. It might be the best thing for the whole Middle East. At the present moment they are ruled by drug lords and oil barons who hide behind a shield of Faith to get away with murder. The people do not like it (as a whole) but they do not yet have a voice. This voice takes a long time to appear. Think of America, I doubt every person their wanted to be Independent from the Crown and in the early days the “Founding Fathers” would have been seen as terrorists. Now hundreds of years on the majority of people have accepted it was the best for the American people.

--

AS for the War on Terror? Have a look at an article I wrote: www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Aug, 18 2005 @ 01:18 PM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne

Anyway, I love your honesty and I hope you stay a long time and have a lot of fun here. We all surely do!


Thanks for the welcome!

And thanks to everyone who replied. I'm just reading through this posts and other threads in my spare time. I know through out the forum many people have their opinions and I like to read both sides and think on it before I jump on anyones bandwagon.



posted on Aug, 18 2005 @ 02:55 PM
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Well, I hate to say this, but I don't know anything about politics. I've been one of those people who only listened to the news for the weather but just happened to catch a few minutes of the stuff that was really important. And I usually just vote Democrat for two reasons: most of my family are Democrats and its said that that's the party that actually cares about African americans.


I hate to say it but neither side cares about AfricanAmericans. They care about votes. They often race to conjure up the latest vote buying schemes with social programs that are supposed to benefit minorities, but in reality it's just a scam. I'll definately agree that the Dem's have better reputation for "helping" minorities but African Americans tend to advance much higher in Republican administrations. Do a little research and find one African American in a senior advisory role or policy making role in the last Dem. Administration.


*I want to know more about our foreign relations. Why does the French dislike us? Does everyone really think that we are fat and lazy?


No, they think we are arrogant and boisterous. They also feel threatened by our culture. There are suicide bombers who like gangster rap, nobody likes microsoft windows, and McDonalds makes a crappy burger no matter what continent you live on. American movies and music are at the top of the charts everywhere and if you don't like it that way then you are stuck listening to the euro-crap or watching artsy fartsy french movies. Yuck.

In my opinion jealousy plays a big part as does a feeling that since America is so Big and Powerful both economically and militarily that everyone should have a say in what we do. It is also politically expedient to blame your own failures on the U.S. if you are a foriegn leader (see Chirac, Shroeder, Castro, Chavez, Kim Jong Ill).


*Why are does it seem that Democrats and Republicans are the only parties. Just looking over the stat sheet I found that most of their views and ideas lined up more with the Green party (if I remember right). But everyone says if I vote for them its either a wasted vote or a vote for Bush.


Like it or not those are the two main parties, though in my opinion they should both split into the sane and not-so sane wings.

If you are trying to figure out what party to stand with, well thats why you are so confused. They all suck. Just pick candidates based on their views not the little (d) or (r) next to their names. I'm a registered Rupublican but I have voted for democrats before. I guess you have to use your own personal judgement on that one, nobody can see who you vote for anyway so don't feel bad if your votes don't line up with the group-think crowd on a regular basis.

Also a vote for the greens is a wasted vote. Should they ever come to power in the US then the universe will begin to shrink back into an infinately small speck of dust as it was before the big bang. Besides the greens are also known as watermelons because they are "green on the outside, red in the middle", meaning they use "green" issues as a front for seriously communist/socialist idealism.


*What's going on with Taxes and Social Security?


Income taxes are the most retarded method of taxation available. We tell our citizenry that the more you make, the more we take, and expect them not to cheat on their taxes. We also have a tax code that once printed on paper doesn't fit in a Ryder moving truck. Read about the Fair Tax and national sales taxes where everyone, even drug dealers and illegal aliens have to pay it if they buy anything, but you can also keep every penny you earn if you want to avoid unneccesary purchases.

As for social security, IT'S BROKE!!! Everone knows this but no one wants to admit how bad it is. Some republicans have a plan, some have another, and the Democrats are pissed because it's been one of their best vote buying schemes to date. The math is simple, when there where 20 workers for every retiree the system ran great, then congress started "borrowing" the funds and the population growth slowed. In the very near future the will be one and a half workers for every retiree, Do That Math, if every retiree gets $1200 a month that means that you have to pay a butt load of taxes to support them. No matter how you spin it, someone has to pay for it. The best idea so far, IMHO, is taking the sytem back to scratch and figure out how to make it work for everyone. But the "borrowing of the funds has to stop and we have to deal with the fact that more people are taking out than are putting in.

I know this probably doesn't help much but politics are something you can't just explain. Politics is as personal as the lovers you choose or the diety you worship, and tend to make people just as passionate as if you were talking about their spouse or their god.



posted on Aug, 18 2005 @ 10:18 PM
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Shaione,

I have one bit of advice for you. Do not, and I repeat do NOT learn about politics from the members on this board. Take a class, read a history book, anything. Just about any opinion you get on this board, including ones from me most likely, will be slanted or biased in one way or another.

That's all
.



posted on Aug, 24 2005 @ 09:14 AM
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Contrary to some opinions, you do have some very well read people here who have broken down key political issues of the last 25 years. You have old farts & teens that shouldn't be opening their mouths about politics until they get some hair on the peaches, deriding slanted opinions. Those opinions are only dangerous unless you remove the reality filter that designates a slant for a slant & you see it as unblemished fact. I would endorse you listing to them. Why? Because those opinions get drawn, measured and found wanting by combatants much more adept at it than yourself at this point in time - something you will NEVER see in the main stream media, most definitely not in any history book ( history is, after all, 'his story').
Filters help you get what's needed in the format most amenable. First one to apply: They are guilty until proven innocent. Part of that: Republicans are corrupt by deed or by silence and Democrats are corrupt by silence and enabling for power share purposes. Each camp has stalwarts that either are stifled or done away with or have not hit the critical mass point yet.
Next, the party wars are a distraction to take your eyes off of the class war at the heart of civilization since there has been civilization - all debates of drafts-taxes-social programs, everything, can be boiled down to those base terms. In the American experiment, the mass deception revolves around just how high that bar is set - so many are sure they're on the top end side, when they're actually so far from qualification.
Finally, look for the brass jaw as well as the clay feet of posters who opinions seem to be researched - reference sites are spurious, 'credentials' of quoted authorities can be severely parochial, and subjects are always equations - make sure they balance out.



posted on Aug, 24 2005 @ 10:46 AM
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Have a look at this;
www.aei.org...

The American people seem to be paying more tax than us Europeans by this latest study and yet without many of our Socialist systems.



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 10:07 AM
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Interesting, thanks for the link.



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