Mason secrets = not secrets?

Originally posted by syntaxer
Yes yes, and thank you for clarifying the definition of "worshipful" as though it provides justification for committing a blasphemous sin. Please, Let us all worship our worshipful masters and perhaps we'll be seated at the right-hand of our most worshipful creator?

Tell your English teacher that you came to ATS, and that ML told you that you needed a little extra tutoring.

Since you apparently didn't read the definition above, I'll reprint it:

2. Chiefly British. Used as a respectful form of address.

Also, apparently, you are not aware that the word "worshipful" is still used in Canada and England. For example, when addressing judges, they are referred to as "your worship", and that's not even to mention the Right Worshipful Lord Mayor of London.

"Worshipful" is a proper English term that means the same as the American "honorable". Since Freemasonry originated in England, it certainly isn't surprising that it's chief officer is referred to by the Old English equivalent of "Honorable." Sorry, but to call medieval linguistics a "blasphemous sin" just because you personally don't know anything about them is just plain dumb.

Perhaps we should amend the Masonic ceremony to include the word gay? You know, to celebrate the ritual by including the word "gay" makes complete sense to me, I only advise you clarify the correct usage before hand.

Gay:
2. Showing or characterized by cheerfulness and lighthearted excitement; merry.

Gay Worshipful Master, I am now ready to deliver the Lecture of this degree to our candidate.

Usage Note: The word gay is now standard in its use to refer to homosexuals, in large part because it is the term that most gay people prefer in referring to themselves.

Do you think Worshipful Masters carry the term "Worshipful" equivalently to how the word Gay has become the standard term for how homosexuals prefer in referring to themselves?

So only Chiefly British get a free-pass out of hell?

[edit on 15-8-2005 by syntaxer]

Originally posted by syntaxer
Perhaps we should amend the Masonic ceremony to include the word gay? You know, to celebrate the ritual by including the word "gay" makes complete sense to me, I only advise you clarify the correct usage before hand.

Gay:
2. Showing or characterized by cheerfulness and lighthearted excitement; merry.

Gay Worshipful Master, I am now ready to deliver the Lecture of this degree to our candidate.

Usage Note: The word gay is now standard in its use to refer to homosexuals, in large part because it is the term that most gay people prefer in referring to themselves.

Do you think Worshipful Masters carry the term "Worshipful" equivalently to how the word Gay has become the standard term for how homosexuals prefer in referring to themselves?

So only Chiefly British get a free-pass out of hell?

I see flawed logic has become your bailiwick now.

The word worshipful has retained it’s meaning and is still used in that context to this day, whereas gay has unfortunately had it’s meaning changed, hence what makes sense to you, is convoluted logic to the rest of the world.

Since levity is not part of the ritual, nor are the Worshipful Master’s of every Lodge lighthearted and merry, your amendment would have to be rejected… Solely on the grounds that it can’t be true or accurate. As much as you hoped that your sophomoric attempt to incite would inflame the Brethren here assembled, it merely exposed your vitriolic attempt at derision.

dictionary.reference.com...

You liked the second definition for gay, I see no reason to eschew the second definition for worshipful.

dictionary.reference.com...

Or would that render your example moot?

Chiefly British Monkeys, not just for tea and crumpets anymore…

Before we go any further with commenting on what might seem wrong lets look at what I first posted.

But be fore I ask the question I would like to ask that this thread remain free of bashing and flaming masons.

Now in looking at that you might ask why the term is used. But we should not say it is wrong to use it.

Secondly if you look back at the origin of the word gay it ment happy, joyous. Basicly a good person you would want to be around. In regards to the origins of words some times the meaning changes so you could have a gay worshipful master, but it would have meant that same joyous, happy meaning not that he was gay in the homosexual manner.

As I said before I might not agree with every thing I see or will see. Thats what makes every one different. But we should educate ourselves in order to know what we are talking about. While I more than invite other members to ask serious questions, please refrain from just saying things like it could be evil. Ask why it is the way it is before you make up your mind. And if you do not agree with it you may state so and give a reason, just don't point fingures. Remeber we are all human and every one will feel they are right and will defend what we believe in. I'm not wanting this to turn into a argument but more of a Q&A.
As I am not a mason I can not defend them, but I'm not out to pursicute them either. If I had not looked into history on other things I might have pursicuted my own ancestors on their beliefs with out knowing so. I'm sure nearly every one here has/had atleast one member of their family that was a mason.

I would like to thank every one so far that has given me links to sites. And for answering questions so far.

Raist

Go on... blame it on the British...

1. Given to or expressive of worship; reverent or adoring.
2. Chiefly British. Used as a respectful form of address.

Yes yes, and thank you for clarifying the definition of "worshipful" as though it provides justification for committing a blasphemous sin. Please, Let us all worship our worshipful masters and perhaps we'll be seated at the right-hand of our most worshipful creator?

Hmmmm. Read the first definition again. Given to worship, reverent, adoring. The Subject is the one doing the worshipping, not the recipient of worship from someone else. Freemasons do not worship the Worshipful Master, the WM is 'full of worship' and he does more worshipping that the others. Apparently.

To truly worship God one must have an understanding of one's relationship with God. In other words, humbly bow down before his Holy Majesty. And as 'humility and docility are a sure sign of merit', to be regarded as worshipful was (and still should be) taken as a great compliment.

You're just being mischievous aren't you?

Originally posted by syntaxer


Do you think Worshipful Masters carry the term "Worshipful" equivalently to how the word Gay has become the standard term for how homosexuals prefer in referring to themselves?

You're trying to compare apples and oranges, and are doing it purposely. As previously mentioned, Freemasonry originated in medieval England, and retains the titles of the officers that were used during that period. In like manner, if you go and see a Shakespeare play, you will hear the word "gay" used in its original context, i.e., to refer to happiness.

Furthermore, the word "worshipful" is still used today in its original context in Britain and Canada to refer to public officials. The fact that its not commonly used in the States today is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
You're trying to compare apples and oranges, and are doing it purposely. As previously mentioned, Freemasonry originated in medieval England, and retains the titles of the officers that were used during that period. In like manner, if you go and see a Shakespeare play, you will hear the word "gay" used in its original context, i.e., to refer to happiness.

Furthermore, the word "worshipful" is still used today in its original context in Britain and Canada to refer to public officials. The fact that its not commonly used in the States today is irrelevant.

I have all my apples and oranges aligned quite fine thank you. I am simply suggesting that Masonic rituals which include ceremonial altars, using terms like worshipful master, also incorporate the term gay in it's original context. If you feel the term gay will be overly misinterpreted, then perhaps you should reconsider participating in activities that involve worshipful masters in the eyes of god.

It could be sinning ya know!

[edit on 16-8-2005 by syntaxer]

Originally posted by syntaxer
I have all my apples and oranges aligned quite fine thank you. I am simply suggesting that Masonic rituals which include ceremonial altars, using terms like worshipful master, also incorporate the term gay in it's original context. If you feel the term gay will be overly misinterpreted, then perhaps you should reconsider participating in activities that involve worshipful masters in the eyes of god.

It could be sinning ya know!

Only to a metaphorically blind, fruit-wielding, fundamentalist Christian with poor vocabulary skills.

I have a question for you Mr. Tri-Lamb: As a non-Mason, WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE to you what Masons address their presiding officer as? Seriously! Of what consequence is it to you? Why do you care, other than to be antagonistic?

Originally posted by syntaxer


I have all my apples and oranges aligned quite fine thank you.

I'm not so sure. You still seem to be having trouble understanding the reason for the vocabulary used in Freemasonry, and are attempting to compare it to something that is in no manner connected. This, by adage, is comparing apples to oranges.

I am simply suggesting that Masonic rituals which include ceremonial altars, using terms like worshipful master, also incorporate the term gay in it's original context.

Why? Since medieval times, the Craft has referred to the chief architect of a project as "worshipful master." He was denoted "worshipful" because honor was due to him because of his superior knowledge of the Craft, and "master" because he had become a master of the trade and had produced a certified masterpiece. "Gay" was never used in Masonry, but you are suggesting that it be implemented just for the fun of it. Therefore, your suggestion, once again, is comparing apples to oranges.

If you feel the term gay will be overly misinterpreted, then perhaps you should reconsider participating in activities that involve worshipful masters in the eyes of god.

God isn't the one who needs a dictionary.



[edit on 16-8-2005 by Masonic Light]

reply to post by Raist

I will not dwell on telling you whether you ought to believe what you read or not. I find your curiosity legitimate, and such a creative manifestation as curiosity should not be put out by the intellectual laziness of negation. Never follow blindly those whom prefer to deny what they don't know about, than rather educating themselves about what truly lies behind things. You have two hands; one turns on the candle; the other one chokes it. It is up to you which one to use.

To address your question; Masonry is a system of life that has no adherence to dogma. The intention of Masonry is not to preach scripts or rituals but to bond its brethren in a relationship of true friendship. Are the handshakes and signs the only things Freemasons keep secret? I cannot answer that, but that specific answer is irrelevant. If you are wise enough to discern the shadow from the light your mind will tell you the logic behind every secret; not only the masonic one.

"Secrets" such as handshakes, etc., are merely symbols. Remember, a symbol itself is meaningless until the beholder transfers a value to it. There is where the secret lies. Even if you took a mason and tortured such knowledge out of him, you would still NOT know the secret; the knowledge you would have gained from his torture, would be useless.

What is the secret then? It is the value a mason transfers to such symbols, and the whole experience that lead him to thus establish a relationship between the symbol-experience. Only to that person and to his own heart he knows what that symbol means to him, and he shall die with such secret within his breast. Why? Simple; because you cannot extract "experience" from a person and live it yourself; because experiences are as unique and many as individuals living them. Yes, there are many sources out there on the Internet that reveal many things of the craft; some rightly and others erroneously. Whichever it is and whatever it is, it will be meaningless to you. It will only mean something to a mason because he lived through a variety of experiences that lead him to that "secret". Guess what? when a mason meets another one, he meets a brother... a true brother; worth of trust and unbounded from the restrictions of age, origin, partisanship, religion or belief. Case and point: I am a registered democrat, and passionate of politics. One of my brothers is a republican, equally passionate about politics, etc. However, we can harmoniously get over the pettiness of our own personal needs or dogmas and look at the bigger picture, to care about each other as true brothers. The difference between two masons that meet for the first time and two people that have never met? That there is an initial sense of respect and recognition towards that other person because regardless of whether they have met or not, they have spiritually and intellectually walked a same path; you both know the toil, time and hardship it takes and the rewards regained; there is an immediate bond created: a sense of brotherhood. How can someone ever reveal that immediate feeling or blind trust?

No mater how many millions of pages go online, no matter how many "pseudo-masonic", anti-masonic or dead-wrong idle people concocted a fantasy it their mind, it doesn't matter... it really doesn't matter. The masonic secret will always remain secret. Only those that have experienced it know it and they won't tell it because, well... they really can't!

Hope this makes sense!

a traveler

reply to post by syntaxer


Instead of disrupting this thread, which is intended as straightforward conversation with Masons in regards to an article read by the OP, please conintue your posts in a tseperate threead, you are inflamming other members, seemingly on purpose. The OP asked for no flaming or stabs, please honor it as a Christian.

glad to see some very good information in this thread. I've learned a few things myself, but I'm a bit skeptical on all of your definitions of what is and isn't secret. To be honest, I know some brothers that are MUCH more conservative than anyone on this site when it comes to even discussing topics unrelated to masonry that come up during meetings.

Just like everything else, what is considered 'secret' most likely differs from lodge to lodge, and state to state. For example masonic blogs like burningtaper.blogspot.com... have been heavily criticized for exposing masonic secrets, while plenty of others find the information perfectly acceptable to one and all.

Personally, I would think that there are more secrets involved than "experiences," due guards, passwords and handshakes.

Then again, it's not like any of this information isn't already available on google, youtube, amazon, wikipedia, mason sites, anti-mason sites, torrents, etc. etc.

reply to post by Raist


I am a 33 degree mason, in Toronto Ontario.. I am stuck in masonry. I cannot leave because of what i know... I have to speak like how i am about to speak or i will be punished, but please understand: If the world was in danger, and a few men could help, what would they do? would a revolution be in order? even though it upset the flow? how could they help? could they stop what they could stop without deceiving? NO!!! let what is out there be out there??? we should all study what are passion is because that is where we are most useful. But if we think we have a calling, we must follow it!! For mankind's sake follow it!!!

R. R. RRM 2008

I've not said much about the masons on this forum.

I will now chime in:

Quite simply, I'm not sure what lower level masons know, but I knew a couple of high ranking masons. They are in the music industry and they are actually in the "indie rock" sector of the music industry... go figure. Masons seem to be everywhere.

They never directly said "we want you to become a mason"... but they did tell me something I found kind of odd.

They wanted me to join their band, but they kind of creeped me out because they basically told me that if I joined them, I'd know all the most powerful people in the world, and that they would make me into a superhuman to the way I am now, and that I would learn the secrets of the universe and become more powerful than I could ever imagine.

Now... Let's start over, masons.

You wouldn't dare reveal these secrets that my two masonic pals alluded to, would you?

It's occult practices, and esoteric rituals, and esoteric knowledge. Admit it. These people were right, and that's why there are so many masons on here saying "Oh it's no big deal" and being condescending towards the people asking the questions (only some are condescending, others just keep denying away) that are critical of exactly what Masons do.

I think keeping secrets is very un-harmonious of a person, unless it is for a good reason.

I just would like to know... what reason is it? I don't care to know your secrets. But what reason would you have to keep these esoteric things from the public, and why are masons in control of everything?

A few thoughts from my own experiences as a mason, research, and masons i have known.

1.) Wether or not a "secret" is known by all now thanks to the internet and books etc a mason is still supposed to not discuss it. The reason is that it is not about keeping the secret, so much as being "ABLE" to keep a secret. In other words it serves as a constant test of a masons personal integrity...and it's one many masons fail, especially online. From an outsiders perspective this must all seem strange, "why so secretive about stuff we already know if that's all there is?" My answer is, because it's not the secret, it's the keeping of the secret that is important in building the character of a mason.

2.) "Indie masons", and "esoteric" powers and becoming a God.
Masons come from all walks of life, not only do Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindu's etc all live as masons, but Deist, and some rather radical new age types do as well. Also all masons tend to have a sense of humor, especially among younger generations...they get a kick out of things like singing the Simpsons "stone cutters" song at the dinner table....so teasing about the conspiracies, and our NWO etc...has become sort of a fun way to joke about all the accusations we hear that make us laugh.

Ultimately the only requirement masonry puts down is that they beleive in God, and that God Created the Universe...that's where the religious dogma stops....beyond that masonry teaches a series of moral lessons, almost all taken from the Holy Bible both new and old testement depending on what higher degrees you look into. So regardless of what you may be told, there's little "secret" in masonic ritual that could not be found by indepth study of the Holy Bible. However again the "secret" is the way in which these moral stories handed down to us are taught. Teaching in symbolism, and in a "play", tends to stick to a persons mind in a far deeper manner than simply reciting a verse in the bible....the point is to make this already available information "STICK" to the person's character, and make them a better person.

I might add that I suppose one could be said to become a more powerful human being if one did follow all the tenents faithfully. Not because of "majick" or the like....but because a righteous man has many advantages over most people.

1.)A righteous man always has a clear conscience.
2.)A righteous man does not fear death, but only fears failing to live up to their potential. (I can not stress this point enough....excepting your mortality and death is something that will change your entire life...many men think they have, but haven't)

3.)A righteous man feels obligated to act NOW, and not procrastinate. As such they get more done.
4.)A righteous man builds a solid reputation, and as such is favored by many people, and therefore is trusted in buisiness and their community. Other people may never know that person is a mason, all they know is they are trustworthy, and can be counted on, such a reputation eventually will ALWAYS bring a person success in buisiness.

All of these things are achieved by living by masonic values. However I am the first to admit that all could be achieved likely through simply following your faith, especially the Christian faith, and intense study of the great lessons passed down in the holy scriptures.

The occultist will be sadly dissappointed in masonry. However a mason who lives up to his obligation will vastly out perform an occultist in a happy and successful life because the wisdom passed down is more powerful then any superstitious occult rituals based on imagined "powers".

You can not compare the occult to masonry. It is like comparing Astronomy to Astrology.

One is a study of truth, one is a study of mythology.....Masonry studies truth, NOT the occult.

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
Quite simply, I'm not sure what lower level masons know, but I knew a couple of high ranking masons.

Perhaps you could tell us exactly what a high ranking mason is? We have masons of every degree on ATS, ranging from the 3rd degree to the 33rd degree, and none of us have ever heard or know of anyone who is a high ranking mason.

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
They never directly said "we want you to become a mason"... but they did tell me something I found kind of odd.

They never will. We have a lot of people who claim to have been "invited," all of whom strangely dislike masonry, but in reality it strongly goes against tradition to be invited to join masonry. You must ask.

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
They wanted me to join their band, but they kind of creeped me out because they basically told me that if I joined them, I'd know all the most powerful people in the world, and that they would make me into a superhuman to the way I am now, and that I would learn the secrets of the universe and become more powerful than I could ever imagine.

Well, this could be several things: they are mentally unstable, they were pulling your leg, they were high, you were high, etc.

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
You wouldn't dare reveal these secrets that my two masonic pals alluded to, would you?

Lets analyze the logic here. These are people who you believe were masons, who never made mention of any of these "secrets" in the context of masonry at any point, but because they told you they knew some sort of secrets they must be masonic? This is a huge logic leap. Maybe they were powerful in a business sense in their own right? Maybe they were mentally insane? Why in the world would you assume its masonic?

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
It's occult practices, and esoteric rituals, and esoteric knowledge. Admit it.

I find it fascinating you ascribe so much power to masonry, which apparently is somehow keeping all this secret, and yet you know what is really going on. How is this?I have no doubt that many want to make masonry more than it really is. They want it to be fanciful. They want to believe.

But the evidence is out there for you - all of it - on the internet. You will find no evidence of "occult practices" because there are none. You will find esoteric rituals and knowledge, which are not exclusive to masonry. And no one has ever denied these rituals or knowledge exist, in fact, we keep trying to explain it and no one is listening.

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
These people were right, and that's why there are so many masons on here saying "Oh it's no big deal" and being condescending towards the people asking the questions (only some are condescending, others just keep denying away) that are critical of exactly what Masons do.

And what exactly is it that masons do which is worthy of being critical towards? Who are "these people" that were right? What are they right about?

Masons cannot win with the sort of logic conspiracy theorists have set up. If we tell you the truth that there is nothing here for you to get hysterical about, you claim were hiding something and that its just a cover for our evil. If we say nothing, you claim that our silence shows were up to no good. You cannot seem to be made happy.

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
I think keeping secrets is very un-harmonious of a person, unless it is for a good reason.

Do you? OK. You start, and show us by example: tell us your full name, address, phone number, credit card number, and sex life. What? You just said keeping secrets is bad. You have no good reason to keep those secrets.

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
I just would like to know... what reason is it? I don't care to know your secrets. But what reason would you have to keep these esoteric things from the public, and why are masons in control of everything?

The reason for secrets is not the secrets themselves. The secrets are available to you for your complete viewing pleasure. You'll find they are rather mundane, but I won't tell you them. Why? Because there is a value to being able to keep a secret, it builds bonds of trust and emphasizes organizational values of fidelity.

In truth, the things we keep secret are not esoteric knowledge, all of them are in innumerable books published by masons which you can purchase. The secrets come in certain signs, grips, and words which are so incredibly secret you can find them on google quicker than I'd be able to type them out.

Your last part boggles the mind - masons obviously do not control everything. Exactly how could so many people get away with "exposing" masonry and slandering it if masons controlled everything? Why do you think this? Can you name ANY international political figure that is a mason - even one? None of them are. If we're controlling everything, we are doing a very poor job of it.

reply to post by Raist