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Mason secrets = not secrets?

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posted on Aug, 14 2005 @ 10:36 PM
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I have a question to the masons out there.

But be fore I ask the question I would like to ask that this thread remain free of bashing and flaming masons. If this article is true we can use this thread as a learning tool to ask questions about masonry inorder to better understand it. After all it is my understanding that we are all here to a degree to do just that, to find the answers and discuss them.

Secondly to my knowledge a thread about this has not been started the only one close to it was titled what is a mason or some thing like that. I'm curious if as to the thoughts of masons on this article.


I just came across a mason site that says the only secrets in masonry is the pass words and handshakes. Is this true? that would mean you could openly discuss your rituals and let ppl understand the "evil" as it's termed behind them. I would assume that the rituals might differ some what from area to area is this correct?

You can see the article here. It will not let me copy and past a sample of it here sry.
Link


It seems to be a masonic site that does no bashing at all in fact here is the home page for it. Home




posted on Aug, 14 2005 @ 10:52 PM
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Originally posted by Raist
I just came across a mason site that says the only secrets in masonry is the pass words and handshakes. Is this true? that would mean you could openly discuss your rituals and let ppl understand the "evil" as it's termed behind them. I would assume that the rituals might differ some what from area to area is this correct?


You'll have to believe every true Mason on this site, for it is exactly what we have been saying all along. How many times has a Mason offered to answer any question, as long as it doesn't pertain to modes of recognition? The sad part is, instead of legitimate questions, only half baked innuendo and outright lies are perpetrated (pick any Secret Societies thread to bear this out). the detractors of Freemasonry will dismiss this with a casual wave of the hand, as they go to any length to dredge up the most ridiculous assertion.

I now bid this thread adieu, for it is destined for the same fate...

Forthright Monkeys, not just for telling it all anymore...


[edit on 14/8/2005 by Mirthful Me]



posted on Aug, 14 2005 @ 11:08 PM
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Originally posted by Mirthful Me

Originally posted by Raist
I just came across a mason site that says the only secrets in masonry is the pass words and handshakes. Is this true? that would mean you could openly discuss your rituals and let ppl understand the "evil" as it's termed behind them. I would assume that the rituals might differ some what from area to area is this correct?


You'll have to believe every true Mason on this site, for it is exactly what we have been saying all along. How many times has a Mason offered to answer any question, as long as it doesn't pertain to modes of recognition? The sad part is, instead of legitimate questions, only half baked innuendo and outright lies are perpetrated (pick any Secret Societies thread to bear this out). the detractors of Freemasonry will dismiss this with a casual wave of the hand, as they go to any length to dredge up the most ridiculous assertion.

I now bid this thread adieu, for it is destined for the same fate...

Forthright Monkeys, not just for telling it all anymore...


[edit on 14/8/2005 by Mirthful Me]



Well I was hoping this could be a thread to ask questions I and others might like to ask. But instead you came out agressive in a way to instantly show deffensive position.

I merely was asking about each individuals rituals and oaths. I'm never said That I didn't believe other mason sites. But this is the first I've seen one say that they want masons to talk about every thing except passwords and hand shakes.

Sorry I ask, maybe I should go to the mason hate sites from now on.

I was merely asking masons a question about an article I had yet seen. What is wrong with that? I want to ask and have others ask legitimate questions nothing more. Why think I would want other wise in none of my posting have I bashed masons I might have called one on a post but that is all. In fact the post I called him on mostly pertained to him saying another member was not a mason (who later produced documents that looked convincing to me) and this other member seemed to have some knowledge of masonry. Perhaps you could give me a chance before assuming I'm out to attack masons.

Now back to my question(s) can you (masons) discuss your rituals and oaths with nonmasons? Or discuss symbols? Is there a site that has all the mason symbols and their meaning?



posted on Aug, 14 2005 @ 11:33 PM
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Originally posted by Raist
I merely was asking about each individuals rituals and oaths. I'm never said That I didn't believe other mason sites. But this is the first I've seen one say that they want masons to talk about every thing except passwords and hand shakes.

Sorry I ask, maybe I should go to the mason hate sites from now on.

Now back to my question(s) can you (masons) discuss your rituals and oaths with nonmasons? Or discuss symbols? Is there a site that has all the mason symbols and their meaning?


Mirthful was not attacking you. He, like all of us, is simply frustrated about how many times we have tried telling people the same thing and everyone just dismiss it as lies. It still amazes me at how people who claim to be investigating freemasonry can, with such ease and ignorance, dismiss the accounts and experiences of its members. It is the height of ignorance.

What you read on that website is VERY true (that's actually a GREAT website for all masons, there is a wealth of info in there. I browse the site on a daily basis). Modes of recognition are the only things that are consistently kept secret among all jurisdictions in Freemasonry. Some jurisdictions might require that masons keep rituals secret, others might not, it depends where you are. In England, the ONLY things kept secret are indeed the modes of recognition. In California, where I am from, we do not discuss rituals with non-masons as we are also forbidden from writing them down. This is mostly because the rituals themselves reveal modes of recognition and pertaining esoteric knowledge.

While some masons on this site may be permitted to discuss ritual with you, chances are that they probably will not. There are many candidates for Freemasonry on this forum, and we would not want to spoil the experience for them. But you CAN indeed find exposes of our rituals on many websites (along with incorrect modes of recognition), which I will not give you the link to


You are also VERY correct in stating that ritual changes from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Since there is no CENTRAL masonic authority, each jurisdiction is allowed to change what it wants about the fraternity in its borders. If it strays too far from the landmarks of Freemasonry, all masons in that jurisdiction risk no longer being recognized by masons throughout the rest of the masonic world.

But there are sometimes BIG differences in rituals from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, especially here in the US. Just about every mason in this forum has had a different experience regarding their initiations, but the effect is the same in the end. While the rituals DO vary, they have remained incredibly true to their original purpose and, despite differences in rituals, they still achieve the same effect.

[edit on 14-8-2005 by sebatwerk]



posted on Aug, 15 2005 @ 12:34 AM
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Sorry but I took it as him coming out in fighting mode. Which was rather shoking considering I was asking about the artical and the rituals/symbols. I had made no bashing comments about masons merely questions. I'm sorry I took it wrong but it seemed that way to me.

Even this site will not let me look into rituals though.


I still have yet to see a sight that holds all masonic symbols and their meanings either.
The best I found in this case was George Washingtons apron. Every thing else shows me nothing more than the same 3-4 symbols but mention a few. Even the aprons of which I've seen several do not tell me what every thing depicted on them means.

I honestly would think they would have more information on this as most ppl do not join things without looking into them first. At least I've never joined any thing without checking it out first, maybe I'm the only one who knows.

Is there no site that explain these things? I've went through pages and pages of searches and found little to no imformation regarding either. After over 25+ pages in my initial search plus links this was the best I had found so far and it's not entierly english. If you have better links I would much like to see them.

I'm not going to ask if masons eat babies or some bull like that all of the questions I would ask would be about things I stated above. And is there a site like this one that has every thing in english? It would realy be a pain to use a translator on hole articals, not to mention I'm sure there would be some loss of info in the translation.



posted on Aug, 15 2005 @ 12:41 AM
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Originally posted by Raist
Even this site will not let me look into rituals though.



This site is not about Freemasonry.



I still have yet to see a sight that holds all masonic symbols and their meanings either.
The best I found in this case was George Washingtons apron. Every thing else shows me nothing more than the same 3-4 symbols but mention a few. Even the aprons of which I've seen several do not tell me what every thing depicted on them means.


You need to do a better search. All the information you could possibly want on Freemasonry is out there. Trust me. I will not help you look for it, but take my word for it when I tell you it's there. Freemasons themselves provide many of this information on websites. I suggest that you start by learning some basics of the Craft first, before you attempt to dive into symbolism and rituals, which is really for masons who have already experiences those things anyways




Is there no site that explain these things? I've went through pages and pages of searches and found little to no imformation regarding either. After over 25+ pages in my initial search plus links this was the best I had found so far and it's not entierly english. If you have better links I would much like to see them.


I have many links to exposes and such, but I will not give them to anyone except masons. If you search for the right terms, it's not hard to find. It's actually very EASY to find, I came across all the exposes even though I wasn't even trying. As for sites that discuss the symbolism of Freemasonry, you will have to go to websites created for masons by masons, such as the one you originally posted. Those sites will give you the best overview and history of the symbolism.

Why do you want to learn about masonic symbolism and rituals? What do you know regarding the organization itself and its history? Without a decent knowledge of that, the ritual and symbolism won't mean much.



posted on Aug, 15 2005 @ 01:18 AM
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Originally posted by Raist
I just came across a mason site that says the only secrets in masonry is the pass words and handshakes. Is this true? that would mean you could openly discuss your rituals and let ppl understand the "evil" as it's termed behind them. I would assume that the rituals might differ some what from area to area is this correct?

This is quite correct. I have even gone as far as posting select portions of my ritual on this site to backup points I have made. And your assumption that Rituals differ is quite correct. It has been estimated that there are over 50 versions of the Craft ritual in England alone.

I have offered to discuss any aspect of freemasonry several times before and I would be happy to do so again.


I honestly would think they would have more information on this as most ppl do not join things without looking into them first. At least I've never joined any thing without checking it out first, maybe I'm the only one who knows.

Is there no site that explain these things? I've went through pages and pages of searches and found little to no imformation regarding either. After over 25+ pages in my initial search plus links this was the best I had found so far and it's not entierly english. If you have better links I would much like to see them.


My favorite site for basic information about what it is and isn't is www.grandlodge-england.org...

There is also good information at freemasonry.bcy.ca... and you may find www.masonicinfo.com... useful also.

The best information is not on the web though (remember it's still a modern media) and for symbolism I would recommend 'Freemasonry: A Journey Through Ritual and Symbol' (W. Kirk McNulty, Thames and Hudson Ltd, London: 1991. ISBN 0-500-81037-0).

[edit on 15-8-2005 by Trinityman]



posted on Aug, 15 2005 @ 01:49 AM
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Why am I curious about it and what do I know.

Well I'm curious because I recently became aware that several ppl in that past who I personaly find important were masons.
For instance: Mozart, Beethoven,Washington,Franklin,Shakespeare, Voltaire,Doyle. These ppl are important to me for their works they are important in my life. Also I have a friend in OES ,which is the female (for those who don't know) form of masonry (oddly enough I found out there are men in it also), I have friends who have family members that are masons but I have never met them to be able to ask. So I figure here is a good place to ask, along with searching the web.
I also have seen symbols in masonry that look very familiar to me and was wondering as to the masonic meaning one looking like this: lOl I have seen this and can't find what it means any where it reminds me of a scarab symbol. Also I have seen the infinity symbol and wonder if it means just that.

In finding out that those I think are important in life were masons I wish to better understand what they were apart of so that I might better understand them.



Thanks Trinityman for the links I'm gonna check them out



posted on Aug, 15 2005 @ 02:49 AM
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the "secrets" of freemasonry are fare more than just the signs and handshakes, those are mere passwords. The secrets are simply your personal evolution, the experiences youve gained, and the fraternal love with your brothers. those are the real secrets that cannot be shared with the profane, because anyway they would not understand. They have not experienced it.



posted on Aug, 15 2005 @ 03:03 AM
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a VERY noble reason i must say. trying to find out more about what they belonged to in order to better appreciate them. you seem to have the basis of intelligance....if you wish for MORE info then just the web could provide. you could always goto a local lodge and ask the actual masons there anything you want to know...they would most likely be more then happy to answer them as best they can. i know that's how I became a mason. i walked in and said i was there to learn about freemasonry and the guy i was talking to said "sure but only after dinner." and they insisted i stay for dinner and talk and were extreemly warm and welcoming. (no i wasnt poisoned Trolls). and noone even asked me to join they just said IT it seemed like something i'd be interested in to sleep on it and come back and let someone know.

So even if your looking for information and arnt' interested in joining go down there, ask anything you want to know. i think you'll find something incredible there.

[edit on 15-8-2005 by umwolves123]



posted on Aug, 15 2005 @ 03:52 AM
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I'm not looking for the "deep" secrets Moon


I'm merely trying to understand the side of masons and what the symbols mean as many of them look very familiar to me. I know what they mean in the terms where I have seen them but they may mean something else in mason use. But this one lOl I have seen before and recently came across on a mason site.

The one I'm refering to at the moment is to the right of the womans head just below the compass and above the ladder.





And on the alter here.





As I posted before it reminds me of the scarab symbol notedly the second from the left in this.



Who used it as a sign of spontainious creation or some thing close to that.

I'm doing nothing more than comarping it to other things wondering if they might hold the same meaning. This way I have a better understanding and can make rational decisions. Is it not better to learn about somthing than remain ignorant and make irrational decisions from that ingnorance?

Also as I mentioned above ppl that I see as important in history (to myself any way) and probably more were indeed masons. If they were masons and I have interest in them should I not ask about their beliefs and ideas?
Perhaps something they have learned caused them to be great (in my eyes). Maybe they were inspired by something they knew from meaning that I do not.

I understand that some may think I want to bash masons as some posts do. But truely once again I merely seek knowledge in things I or others would see. For instance the all seeing eye to masons is the eye of the creator or God meaning watchfulness (like God watching over) pretty much. In some areas the all seeing eye is also called the eye of horus, which in egypt was also called Udjat and was for healing and protection.

This is an example of truths I would like to be able to collect here to show the difference in like things. And later there might be other questions that some would like to know the answer to.

For instance I have found out that while masons do not acknowledge one religion they must believe in a supreme being and afterlife. So this shows me that a christian,jew,buhdist could be masons but not an athiest (at least from what I have read so far). At least I'm not saying masons are evil, I know there are bad apples in every group and should not judge a full group or their ideas off a few ppl.

Unless it's the government who are all corupt.



posted on Aug, 15 2005 @ 04:10 AM
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Originally posted by umwolves123
a VERY noble reason i must say. trying to find out more about what they belonged to in order to better appreciate them. you seem to have the basis of intelligance....if you wish for MORE info then just the web could provide. you could always goto a local lodge and ask the actual masons there anything you want to know...they would most likely be more then happy to answer them as best they can. i know that's how I became a mason. i walked in and said i was there to learn about freemasonry and the guy i was talking to said "sure but only after dinner." and they insisted i stay for dinner and talk and were extreemly warm and welcoming. (no i wasnt poisoned Trolls). and noone even asked me to join they just said IT it seemed like something i'd be interested in to sleep on it and come back and let someone know.

So even if your looking for information and arnt' interested in joining go down there, ask anything you want to know. i think you'll find something incredible there.

[edit on 15-8-2005 by umwolves123]



I have to find the lodge around here first lol

And I might do just that as long as they don't laugh at me for asking questions about simularities in symbols and other stuff.


As I mentioned before I have a friend in OES (in fact my wife built her lodges website for her). Very nice woman (does not eat babies or have evil plot to rule the world
) I have read the stories of the ppl in the five points of their emblem (not sure it that is correct term for it but you should know what I'm talking about lol) which was interesting.

I'm not saying I would agree with every idea of things I just wish to get a better understanding about them. After all if every one thought the same the world would be rather boring. But understanding removes ignorant fears which lead to hate. I am one of those ppl with insatible curiosity I have ask gay friends questions to better understand their life style, I question things of thers that are different than myself in order to understand their life better. I search through history pertaining to my own heretage in order to understand my ancestors better. I have checked out different religoins for the same reason.

Mine is not to judge but ask questions.
Thanks umwolves for the idea and polite reply



posted on Aug, 15 2005 @ 05:08 AM
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Originally posted by Raist
The one I'm refering to at the moment is to the right of the womans head just below the compass and above the ladder.

That looks like a point within a circle

mastersjewel.com...


And on the alter here.

That's very hard to make out, but looks like the 47th Proposition of Euclid

freemasonry.bcy.ca...


As I posted before it reminds me of the scarab symbol notedly the second from the left in this.

Who used it as a sign of spontainious creation or some thing close to that.

I don't think they're connected.


For instance the all seeing eye to masons is the eye of the creator or God meaning watchfulness (like God watching over) pretty much. In some areas the all seeing eye is also called the eye of horus, which in egypt was also called Udjat and was for healing and protection.

The All-Seeing Eye predates freemasonry (like much masonic symbology), and although it is used in freemasonry to represent God (GAOTU) it can mean many things to many people. Many freemasons like to explore the links with the past, and study the meaning of symbols before they were used by freemasonry.

That's the problem with symbols - they can mean different things to different people. The swastika was a symbol of peace until the Nazis got hold of it and now one would be well advised not to put a swastika on the car!

history1900s.about.com...



posted on Aug, 15 2005 @ 08:36 AM
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Originally posted by Raist
I just came across a mason site that says the only secrets in masonry is the pass words and handshakes. Is this true?


For the most part, yes. There is actually very little in Masonry that is secret, and these things are the modes of recognition and certain portions of the ritual.


that would mean you could openly discuss your rituals and let ppl understand the "evil" as it's termed behind them.


We can discuss the ritual, but of course we do not reveal it verbatim to non-members. Details of the ritual used can be found in many Masonic books, all available to the general public.


I would assume that the rituals might differ some what from area to area is this correct?


Each Grand Lodge uses its own authorized ritual, which differs slightly from each other. Most are based on the works of Webb and Cross. The differences are usual negligible, but sometimes interesting.



posted on Aug, 15 2005 @ 09:08 AM
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Raist, I commend you on the manner in which you are going about searching for information on Masonry. However, let me give you a bit of advice from someone who was once in your very shoes... Don't look up the ritual.

Why? Well, while you may not think so now, I gather from the tone of your posts that you may well wish to bcome a Mason in the future. If you do, you will not want to have ruined it by reading the exposes and such. There is a reason that alot of Masons won't discuss ritual, and even the ones who would are not likely to post it on an international message board such as this for all to see. Masons take their Craft very seriously, and their rituals are very important and meaningful to them. They don't want people to abuse or sully or ridicule their time honored traditions and symbols. On top of that, as Seb mentioned, the ritual is best experienced with no preconcieved notions or expectations about what is to come. I already know more than I want to, and I have read not one expose. I have been researching and reading about Masonic traditions and symbolism for well over a year now, and as a result, I have come across just about everything that a non-Mason could hope to learn. I have a vague idea what will happen when I take my first Degree, but I try not to think about it much, as I do not want the experience to be lessened by anticipation of this or that happening.

You are right to want to investigate the organization before joining (if that is your intention), but I strongly urge you not to delve into exposes of the ritual. You just might regret it one day if you decide to petition. Now, you have every right to look it up, but like Seb said, I won't help you with that.

What I will do is hook you up with some good links to get you started and hopefully satisfy your curiosity.

This is a great site, chock-full of information on all kinds of Masonic issues: www.masonicinfo.com...

Some FAQ from the Scottish Rite, Southern Jurisdiction, USA's site (great site to browse; research papers, etc.
): www.srmason-sj.org...

This one has lots of good info as well: web.mit.edu...

The Grand Lodge of British Columbia & the Yukon has some great articles and information as well: freemasonry.bcy.ca...

And, one of my personal favorites (
): www.grandlodgeoftexas.org...

Try Googling "Grand Lodge" and see if you can find the one for your state, this will help you get an idea of what the Craft is doing in your area, and chances are you can find a "lodge locator" of some kind to help you find a local lodge. Or, you can simply u2u one of the Masons here and they will be nore than happy to help you.

While I am not a Mason, I have studied the subject at length, and I will be happy to share with you whatever resources I have. Don't expect me to help you find exposes and the like. Though they are out there, I strongly advise you leave the ritual where it was meant to be: The Lodge Room.


Good luck!

[edit on 8/15/05 by The Axeman]


df1

posted on Aug, 15 2005 @ 10:25 AM
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Originally posted by The Axeman
However, let me give you a bit of advice from someone who was once in your very shoes... Don't look up the ritual.

Why? Well, while you may not think so now, I gather from the tone of your posts that you may well wish to bcome a Mason in the future. If you do, you will not want to have ruined it by reading the exposes and such.


I differ from Axeman in this regard and did in fact read everything I could lay my hands on about Masonry prior to being raised a Master Mason in April 2005. IMHO doing so did nothing to detract from my experience in any of the three degrees. Even though I read the ritual for each degree in advance, much like Axeman I did not think about or dwell on the ritual very much.

Out of respect for my Brother Masons I do not discuss ritual online or post links to websites containing details of the ritual. But I will tell you that anything that you desire to know about the workings of Masonry, including the ritual, can be found without much difficulty on the internet.
.



posted on Aug, 15 2005 @ 12:31 PM
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Being Christian and declaring another human your Wishful Master might very well buy you a 1st class ticket through those proverbial fiery gates of hell...



Ya just never know huh!..



posted on Aug, 15 2005 @ 12:51 PM
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Originally posted by syntaxer
Being Christian and declaring another human your Wishful Master might very well buy you a 1st class ticket through those proverbial fiery gates of hell...



Ya just never know huh!..


It's worshipful, it is used as per definition #2 below taken from dictionary.com

wor·ship·ful Audio pronunciation of "worshipful" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (wûrshp-fl)
adj.


1. Given to or expressive of worship; reverent or adoring.
2. Chiefly British. Used as a respectful form of address.



posted on Aug, 15 2005 @ 02:13 PM
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Originally posted by AngelWitch
It's worshipful, it is used as per definition #2 below taken from dictionary.com

wor·ship·ful Audio pronunciation of "worshipful" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (wûrshp-fl)
adj.


1. Given to or expressive of worship; reverent or adoring.
2. Chiefly British. Used as a respectful form of address.



Yes yes, and thank you for clarifying the definition of "worshipful" as though it provides justification for committing a blasphemous sin. Please, Let us all worship our worshipful masters and perhaps we'll be seated at the right-hand of our most worshipful creator?

Creator -> Master -> Slave?



posted on Aug, 15 2005 @ 02:28 PM
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Originally posted by syntaxer
Yes yes, and thank you for clarifying the definition of "worshipful" as though it provides justification for committing a blasphemous sin. Please, Let us all worship our worshipful masters and perhaps we'll be seated at the right-hand of our most worshipful creator?

Creator -> Master -> Slave?


Dude, what blasphemous sin? Are you serious?! You can't be serious.

No one "worships" the Worshipful Master. It is a term of r-e-s-p-e-c-t. Just like "honorable". Why don't they say "honorable", you ask? Well probably because it's tradition and the same language has been used for hundreds of years.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. See?




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