Originally posted by FULCRUM
Well.. this will produce just more violence..

Not letting them to go to their Mosque..

This is one of the most holy moslem places, almost like Mecca..

[Edited on 1-9-2003 by FULCRUM]

Doing anything creates more violence. The mere fact that Jews breathe is enough cause for their followers of the religion of peace neighbors to want them dead.

Mr. Nada, the "Palestinians should have been absorbed and assimilated by their brethren that refuse them entrance, but they are used as a thorn in Israel's side. Violence fomented, unrest agitated by those who want no peace except that which would be gained after the Israelis are pushed off the land and into the sea.
Think about it, before the Arabs attacked, the Arab Israelis had the same rights, priveleges and benefits as the Jewish-Israeli, but they chose sides with the Arabs, believing the Arabs when they told them they would erase the Jews from Israel and they would then have it all. Bad bet, t\live with the consequences.

Again I'll ask, as I've often done here, why is it the Arab brethren, the ones with much more land than Irael, can't allocate any land to the "Palestinians"?

Interesting how by comparing the treatment of Israelis by Muslims to the treatment of Muslims by Israelis I get called a biased horrible person. Apparently it is ok for you to post one sided stories and if I dare to debate them or put them into proper perspective I am attacking you. Get over yourself. CA had the same stupid complaint. I don't attack you, I attack what I consider your flawed way of looking at things. If ignoring me makes you happier, so be it. Everyone else will see my corrections of your slanted posts. If you don't see it? Well hey, live in your own happy world.

The fact is you discussed the horrible things Israel was doing to Muslims at the temple mount without discussing any history behind it. As such that makes you wrong, uninformed, unfamiliar with the situation, and in need of background info which I provided.

The fact that you take my criticisms of topics you discuss as a personal attack puts you on the same level as CA in my book. Ignore me if it'll put a smile on your face buddy because it doesn't make a difference to me. If I have to be the only one on the board with an unpopular opinion, so be it, but I'm not swallowing it.

History is in the past. If we act on the past with revenge, only more vengence will come of it. One day, One side, the most powerful side, is going to have to leave the past behind for the sake of the now and the future. Whatever happened to people of jewish faith was wrong. But that cannot be undone with anything of the current. It still happened. And it definately cannot be undone by punishing people of similar faith. You say that Muslims do the same thing to Jews. Probably because Jews do the same thing as Muslims. None the less, the event in this story isn't going to help anything or anybody; it will not change the past, but it will change the future. How will it affect the future?

[Edited on 2-9-2003 by TheManWithThePlan]

Originally posted by Djarums
Interesting how by comparing the treatment of Israelis by Muslims to the treatment of Muslims by Israelis I get called a biased horrible person. Apparently it is ok for you to post one sided stories and if I dare to debate them or put them into proper perspective I am attacking you. Get over yourself. CA had the same stupid complaint. I don't attack you, I attack what I consider your flawed way of looking at things. If ignoring me makes you happier, so be it. Everyone else will see my corrections of your slanted posts. If you don't see it? Well hey, live in your own happy world.

The fact is you discussed the horrible things Israel was doing to Muslims at the temple mount without discussing any history behind it. As such that makes you wrong, uninformed, unfamiliar with the situation, and in need of background info which I provided.

The fact that you take my criticisms of topics you discuss as a personal attack puts you on the same level as CA in my book. Ignore me if it'll put a smile on your face buddy because it doesn't make a difference to me. If I have to be the only one on the board with an unpopular opinion, so be it, but I'm not swallowing it.

I beg of you, please show me where I said you attack me. Please, Please, Please do, you wont find it, and you say I twist things.

I have posted to you 3 times now why I only report on what Israel does, and I have explained to you where I stand on the whole debate. However, 3 times you have ignored this and pressed me further to give you an explaination to something I have already explained 3 times. That is what I meant be if you ignore me, I'll ignore you.

You get over yourself mate, as if whatever you said would ever bother me.
You could attack me all you want and it wouldn't bother me, you mean nothing to me. If you want to debate then lets debate, but don't overlook something that I have explained to you THREE TIMES!!!

Very nice

I will refrain from dragging this on further.

Originally posted by Illmatic67
How has Muslims destroyed everything belonging to Jews and Christians? First of all, the Temple Mount is has nothing to do with Christianity. The Temple Mount has belonged to the Muslims ever since the creation of the mosque, and the Jews have given them the authority over it meaning, Muslims can do whatever they wish to the Temple Mount.

But have Muslims trespassed over to the Western Wall? No, case closed.

The site was also used by the Templars, that's the link to Christianity.

Illmatic, I didn't mean the waqf which is a group that actually cares about the welfare of the holy sites. The destruction i was referring to was the disgraceful desecration of the wall before 1967 and the banning of jews from the cave of the patriarchs. Please don't think i was criticizing the waqf which has proven to be a very respectable group.

Originally posted by Djarums
Very nice

I will refrain from dragging this on further.

Well you can start that by apologising for making accusations that weren't true, and for ignoring me 3 times.

I doubt I'll ever see that though, people like you can never admit they're wrong.

[Edited on 3-9-2003 by John Nada]

Originally posted by John Nada
I doubt I'll ever see that though, people like you can never admit they're wrong.

Thatīs the whole truth about Djarums, and you made your point very clear John.
The funniest thing of all is that he says
"CA had the same stupid complaint. I don't attack you, I attack what I consider your flawed way of looking at things. If ignoring me makes you happier, so be it. Everyone else will see my corrections of your slanted posts. If you don't see it? Well hey, live in your own happy world"
If we look to the Psychology of his post, you can see the typical attitude of "if you donīt like it, live your own happy world", a person that KNOWS that is right will never make such comments, there is always a way to show people the truth, or that they are mistaken.Specially when you have points, facts and trustable resources to back you up, well
never seen once Djarums backing up what he says, because he basiclly doesnīt make a counter he just critizices what the other side said. But never with sources or names.
The way of Djarums is very interesting, because he discredits anybody trying to talk about bad about Israel, and always keeps on making the same point "the suicide bombers", so for him that is the whole problem and the solution is killed them all and destroy the houses of all of them. But he is basicly not being neutral in that case, he doesnīt understand any of the 2 parts of the conflict. But then he is saying that we have something personal against him, while i think is a little bit opposite, i mean Djarums is the one opening those threads, reading the posts and replying right? Nobody goes behind him, there is no personal attack here against him, how can u hate somebody that u donīt even know? Donīt you think is a little bit stupid? Maybe you canīt like somebodyīs opinion, or disagree with it, but hate somebody that u donīt even see is really pathetic...

I donīt need to ignore you, you are already doing it, you ignore the facts in our conversations and you just talk over and over again about "hating jews" and you almost never come out of that, of course we always know the version of "the IDF didnīt kill or injure somebody, hamas was using them as "human shields". That perfect sense of somebody with an objective view , says more than enough. Blame ALL this conflict to "hamas" or groups like that shows a LOT of ignorance, instead of search for the money trails, which normally points at the responsable, history regarding that area of the globe,and religious fights. Not only that, but 2 cannot fight if one of them doesnīt want to. And they both need reasons, and someboy started, but the other one keeps on going.

Donīt say things about others that are also part of yourself, hypocrisy is not compatible with being logical and objective.
If you want to give some credibility to your critics you should post names, or facts, or sources of info, books, whatever, your own words are not enough Djarums, back up your words, men..
And btw is not very smart to say all the time something comes up against israel that u blame "arab propaganda" because i can give surprises any time you want.
And also donīt forget that people gets tired of somebody that keeps on saying something that he canīt even prove...


I chanllenge you as i did with Mycroft to see your knowledge about Israel, and some religion as well. Almost nothing regarding arabs.
If you want you could start telling something about those people:

Ahad Ha'am
Nahum Sokolow
Gershon Shalom
Zeev Jabotinsky
Aaron D. Gordon
Hugo Bergman
Max Nordau
Yosef C. Brenner
Ber Borochov
Nahman Syrkin
Eliezer Ben Yehuda
Dr. Chaim Weizmann
Chana Senesh
Yosef Trumpeldor
David Ben Gurion
Golda Meir
Menachem Begin
Yitzchak Rabin

Any idea?
You have been into israel right?
Then we should start to talk about some books as well:

The Jewish State
Altneuland

And Theodor Herzl

Donīt avoid this conversation and answer my questions please. Give yourself some credit and show us your wisdom about this matter.

Forgot to ask you if u knew any of those 3 persons:

Alkalai, Judah Ben Solomon Hai (1798 - 1878)
Kalischer, Zevi Hirsch (1795 - 1874)
Hess, Moses (1812-1875)

If you do please share your wisdom with us


[Edited on 3-9-2003 by CoLD aNGeR]

Firstly, I assure you none of you know anything about me or my "type of people". Secondly if my points have been misunderstood John I do apologize. Thirdly, CA, questioning my knowledge of Israel or religious issues is humorous and those who know me a bit better than you on here understand why that is. I do not lack knowledge of religious issues or of Israel. I do however lack knowledge of your view on Israel and on religious issues, and to be quite honest I have no desire to change that.

Originally posted by Djarums
Firstly, I assure you none of you know anything about me or my "type of people". Secondly if my points have been misunderstood John I do apologize. Thirdly, CA, questioning my knowledge of Israel or religious issues is humorous and those who know me a bit better than you on here understand why that is. I do not lack knowledge of religious issues or of Israel. I do however lack knowledge of your view on Israel and on religious issues, and to be quite honest I have no desire to change that.

Well political differences aside, it takes a big man to apologise so thank you.

A big surprise to me. I don't necessarily support this action, nor do i condemn it. However, what we need to do is think about what this means, in a global sense. If Israel begins to make such radical decisions in regards to freedoms of religion, we could see a breakdown in whatever litte mideastern 'tolerance' there is.

CA the difference between me and you is that I am able to squarely place the blame on specific groups that are intent on disturbing the peace process. I have never called the Israeli government innocent of any wrongdoing, nor have I ever said that all of the fault rest on the Palestinians. In fact if you would be so kind as to search some of my previous posts in various threads you would see numerous occurences of me stating that both are at fault for the problems there. You on the other hand feel the need to constantly mention to me all of these satanic things that Herzl and his crew did. I honestly couldn't care less about early zionism, I don't follow their views, I don't emulate their tactics and I don't care for many of them as people either. That isn't the point of these discussions. I am trying to discuss what the problems in that land are now. I got shouted at for bringing something from 1967 up, I see no reason why the lives of three people, or the writings of anyone from the late 19th century is relevant here. We all know my feelings on the great fictional work called "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion". I don't feel strongly either way about that stuff. I do however have strong feelings on what goes on there today, and again I must say for all to hear that I blame both sides when appropriate for things that do not help the peace process. I passionately believe that both groups are here to stay and both groups need to understand that very point. What I do criticize however, is that extremist groups are permitted to constantly disrupt things as the bus bombing cancelled plans to hand back two towns to the PA etc. I really don't see that as being unfair at all... sorry if you disagree.

One thing I've got to say though, you said sorry if I misunderstood you, there was no misunderstanding. You believed that I said you attacked me which I didn't. You then asked me 3 times why I keep reporting on Isreal and 3 times I gave you my answer but you chose to ignore it.
There was no misunderstanding, you were just wrong. It's good of you to apologise for that though.