Leave Iraq Now

Originally posted by Street Scholar
That's some doublethink if I've ever seen it ... we destroy lives to make better lives. Very Orwellian.

We kill people making bombs so they dont blow innocent civilians up. Thats making life better for the average Iraqi. How is that doublethink?

If the crazy-asses over there really want the Americans gone, why dont they just chill for about 6 months? I gaurantee Bush and his people want nothing more than to get the hell out of that place. Obviously, the bombers want the Americans to stay so they can have something to make up ridiculous conspiracy theories about. They must know that for every bomb they explode, they get one more week of American presence, and who wants that?

.

posted by djohnsto77 Leaving Iraq now would be tantamount to giving up in the war against the Third Reich and the Empire of Japan. The effect on the future of this country and the world would be absolutely devestating.

If you are drawing historical parallels the third Reich and Imperial Japan were organized enemies.
In WWII they were the aggressors. In Iraq we were the aggressors/invaders.
The opposition to the American presence in Iraq comes from the idigenous population, just as it did in Vietnam. In vietnam we took over an aging French colony, installed a puppet using the CIA sham election and then stuck a label on it and called it democracy.

That dog won't hunt.

posted by umwolves123 i can understand that there is no tangible items to gain. Other then facism, nazism, racism, and communism war hasnt solved anything.
Come on man we're not there for tangible items, We're there to make a better life for other people!

Did the American public agree to go into Iraq as a humanitarian effort?
No.
You want to spend your blood, life and money on this feel free. Bet you won't find President Bush spending his own personal money on it. He deserted in Florida during Vietnam, guaranteed he won't spend his blood or life. I absolutely guarantee you won't find any low-life corporations contributing anything to the effort.

You sound like some kind of Liberal.
Your young life is yours to do with as you wish.
The American tax dollars are not yours to spend nor are the lives of other young Americans that don't want to be there.

The powder keg was lit with the removal of Saddam.
Trying to sit on it as it blows up is needlessly hard on America. It's just stupid.

Iraq is an abstraction we from the cultural West have imagined has any integral relationship to the cultures, peoples and geography that actually exists there.

It is very similar to the Old Soviet Client states in the Balkans. Once the communist dictators were removed the indigenous integral forces and elements were released.

Only after people have seen the complete horrors those forces if left uncontrolled can create do some of the people become willing to listen to other options.

Only after people suffered under the Taliban in Afghanistan were they much more ready to throw off that yoke and try something else.

The Natural cultural, ethnic, religious, and geographic forces have to allowed to find whatever natural divisions and cohesions to take shape.

Its sort of like physics or chemistry, you have to allow the system to reach some more natural stability level.
Then it requires less energy to sustain it in some less precarious state.

Trying to impose the artificially imposed [when the British were there] borders makes no sense.

It is like watchin a couple of guys duke it out.
Step back let them wear each other our somewhat.
Then if you want to step in and pull them off one another it is clear to everyone what you are doing and they are more tired and easier to separate.

If you sit there and try to argue them from fighting, most likely you will end up right in the middle of the fight.

Guaranteed It will bloody and horrible.

We broke the brittle artificial pottery that Iraq was.

It was broken, never to be repaired after we invaded.

Now we have to see what can be done with the individual shards of that old piece of pottery.

Allow natural forces free now or spend a trillion dollars and tens of thousands of American lives and then do it later.

Do the math and see which side of the equation makes more sense.

You want to die?
Then die.
Don't drag other innocent lives along with you.

As an alternative why not come home and help guard our southern border that is in desperate need of reinforcing?

Become a part of the solution and not a part of the problem.

[edit on 13-8-2005 by slank]

.
The one previso to leaving immediately would be seeing Saddam Executed.

Allowing this murderous tyrrant to rise again and seek revenge would be a sick horror.

At least when he is gone all the different elements will have some fighting chance to grab some share of power.
.

Originally posted by pavil

Originally posted by slank
.
Logic dictates leaving Iraq now.

There is no tangible productive result of the Iraq invasion.

STOP putting an American's face and ID on the inevitable violence in Iraq.

.

What is the logic of leaving right now? Who will fill the power vacuum? Iran? Syria? Turkey? Just let the Iraqis have a Civil War? I contend that leaving now would cause more chaos than you envision. There are other players and forces at work in Iraq other than the US.

I can think of a few direct and indirect results from our action in Iraq.

First off indirectly, there has not been an attack "yet" on American soil.

Directly, Saddam Hussein and his Baathist/Sunni dominated party are no longer in power. Please tell the Kurds and the Shiites in Iraq that is not a direct result of our actions.

Libya has abandoned its plans for weapons of mass destruction.

Those are just a few.

As for your "inevitable violence in Iraq", is not trying to develop a government in Iraq that is truly representative of the population a worthwile goal to achieve. True the Iraqis themselves must implement it but to offer no assistance other than "let them kill themselves", as you imply is truly disturbing. Would it suit you better if it was UN peacekeeping forces that were in Iraq helping to rebuild Iraq. What if they were being attacked by insurgents as well. I have news for you, the forces that we are engaged with now RAN the UN out of Iraq with one bombing. If not the Coalition Forces then who? Please tell me who should be there to ensure that Iraq has a chance to succeed.

i just wanted to say, honestly...that entire statement you have made, actually mooved me. Thank you. i am overjoyed to see that at least someone in this world has taken the side of logic and right, instead of doing the wrong thing just because it's easier.

NO.

We will not leave untill the job is done. Wars are not pretty, and the price is dear. The reward in this however, will be long lasting and good for the Iraqi people and the world IN THE LONG RUN.

Stop with the short attention span. Strengthen your resolve. Iraq will get better, but it isn't going to happen today, or tomorow. It will likely happen a decade or two from now, when the current actions will have made their effects felt.

I have thought this for a long time, but never said anything. I severely doubt any of you warmongers give 2 craps about the Iraqis.

Originally posted by cargo
I have thought this for a long time, but never said anything. I severely doubt any of you warmongers give 2 craps about the Iraqis.

i am not a war monger and as mostly everyone here knows i was a US Marine for 6 years, i give 2 craps about them...i'd like to give them all a better life. that's what we are doing now. working to achieve a better life for them.

Originally posted by umwolves123

i am not a war monger and as mostly everyone here knows i was a US Marine for 6 years, i give 2 craps about them...i'd like to give them all a better life. that's what we are doing now. working to achieve a better life for them. [/quote

]

How is that? How exactly are you providing a better life for them? Firstly, who gave you the right to decide what was right, let alone right for someone else?

I am truly very sad for the race when people are so easily fooled and blinded by patriotism. Saddam was nothing, he was barely noticeable, and if it wasn't for what he has lying under the ground, no one would have heard from him. Stop acting like he was the next Hitler or Stalin - He was grounded, surrounded, and under heavy watch - so he wasn't a threat to the international community. The actual Iraqi's were not treated great by our standards, but they also weren't caught in the middle of a civil war. They weren't being attacked directly and indirectly byu both sides of a war they never asked for. At least under Saddam the "good" and "bad" were clearly seen and known, now everything is "bad", and nothing is truly known with all these bombings. None of this should be a shock as it is clearly comman sense.

Maybe the War against Iraqi is about Oil, or maybe it is about Opec's considering the Euro as a base, or maybe it is because the Bush family has a hate on for Saddam? Maybe it is none of these, or all of them

, but one thing is definately for sure - it is certainly NOT for the average Iraqi's. The US government hardly does anything for its' own citizens which it is required to do - doing something for the citizens of another country merely out of the goodness of their heart?

I'm a former Marine, a (dare i say this dirty word?) liberal, and a patriotic American. Yes, i agree we should remove our forces from this conflict. But, doing so only allows for some other interest (read Al Quaida) to step in and institute their own system. Instaed, we need to lay the basic ground work, show them how to develop that ground work, and then get the hell out of Dodge because the whole planet is about to go APE....Let's take care of our own problems now while we still can.

Some of the comments on here are making me SICK.

We got real problem in IRAQ and the situation is getting worse.

And for people on here to critisise the Mother of a dead soldiar is MORE sick,
She def. paid a price and made a sacrafice.....she lost her SON. what more can she lose....so I support her and her cause....and the President ignores her....even while the "putts" is on Vacation at his ranch.....Maybe she should do what they do in Iraq....drive thru' the gates and run over there children....then after say is was an accident and offer some cash.

Just getting sick and tired of this BOGUS war.

Y'r Canadian friend,
Sven

Care to cite where things are steadily getting worse in Iraq, oh Canadian friend of someone?




seekerof

Do you read the news.....besides CNN?

More men just died today....and the situation is getting out of hand man.......

People are starting to riot...because so many still do not have Power (no more then an hours) and water is also a big issue.

but for me to sit here and link em for y'a sorry man, ....work for the truth

Y'r Canadian friend,
Sven

I don't see the point in staying past the elections even if the insurgency is still going.
I don't think that staying there longer will get rid of the insurgents.

The number of attacks per day are steadily increasing and the number of insurgents have remained steady for more than a year. In fact, they've risen quite a bit since April of 2004.

Look at the number of attacks and numbers of insurgents in this thread:
Iraq insurgency estimates

Originally posted by cargo
I have thought this for a long time, but never said anything. I severely doubt any of you warmongers give 2 craps about the Iraqis.

Too many Americans...not just the warmongers care too little about the death and destruction caused by US invasions (for nothing but selfish purposes). This is nothing new:

Weekend video: "The Panama Deception" :

This film shows how the U.S. attacked Panama and killed 3 or 4 thousand
people in an invasion that the rest of the world was against. (Sound
familiar?) It won the Academy Award for best documentary.
www.informationclearinghouse.info...

Talk about sticking your head in the sand...

.
My honest opinion is most war supporters will accept any rationale for a war.

WMDs.

No WMDs?

How about Iraqi democracy?

This isn't a poker game.

Tens of thousands of people are DEAD.
Hundreds of Billions of dollars have been spent.

Iraq is for the most part an artificial construct of the territory the British occupied after WWII.

The only way the thing was pasted together was with barbaric brutality.
We broke those restraints.
Now we are going to try to hold and paste back together an artificial entity with what? barbaric brutality? We seemed to be coming close at Abu Graib.

Get out now:

(1)Cap Saddam. With a trial and execution or without.

(2) Tell the Kurds if they want help securing their region we will help them till they can do it for themselves.

(3) Tell the Shiites we are leaving, and ask do they want some temporary assistance while they develop the ability to defend themselves. If so we will stay for a short period. [they will almost certainly form some kind of Iranian like theocracy, but i personally don't have a problem with that, if that is what most people there want]

Bitch whine and moan about how some of this territory is going to become a center for terrorism, Well Bush broke it and now it is unfixable.
If you give people time to live under terrorist regimes they will probably find out shortly that it isn't what they want.
If then the indigenous people ask us or someone else to come in then we will actually be working with [former?] Iraqis instead of fighting and working against every single person with a grude in that entire region.

The reason the souless leadership of the Whitehouse put us there with lies was to funnel money to haliburton.

I don't know if the embezzled 9 billion dollars was intended to reach Iraqi terrorists or if most of it went to Iraqi criminals or American war thief contractors. Undoubtably some of it [a few hundred million] has gone into insurgent and terrorist hands.

If anyone sane cared about how atrociously this has been handled at every level we would have a revolution in the US. Killing every responsible congress person and Whitehouse occupants and staffers.

We are running deficits of hundreds of billions of dollars.
WTF are we squandering 1/5th of a Trillion dollars turning a stable nation into a terrorist breeding ground?

The US government is insane and the American people are brain-dead for allowing it to continue.

Washington is full of corporate thieves robbing the nation and the American people of everything they hold dear.

If you support Washington DC you are treasonous.
You are the enemy.
.

Nice post

Wish I could express myself as you can

Y'r Canadian friend,
Sven

Slank, while I agree with most of what you have expressed, the killing of "responsible" law makers in the capitol seems to be very much the tactics of insurgents, like those in Iraq. Maybe i'm wrong...I don't know

Well, we can always go back to UN sanctions and put the civilian death toll at about 5k per moth if that sounds better to you?

Originally posted by Frosty
Well, we can always go back to UN sanctions and put the civilian death toll at about 5k per moth if that sounds better to you?

Hello? Pick a newspaper (not American) or history book, please. Just who insisted upon the sanctions that caused so much death and suffering in Iraq?

Originally posted by svenglezz
Some of the comments on here are making me SICK.

We got real problem in IRAQ and the situation is getting worse.

And for people on here to critisise the Mother of a dead soldiar is MORE sick,
She def. paid a price and made a sacrafice.....she lost her SON. what more can she lose....so I support her and her cause....and the President ignores her....even while the "putts" is on Vacation at his ranch.....Maybe she should do what they do in Iraq....drive thru' the gates and run over there children....then after say is was an accident and offer some cash.

Just getting sick and tired of this BOGUS war.

You write just fine Sven - you get right to the point in a very few words. Keep it up!