Nazi Technology

Gotha Go P.60A



In August 1944 the Gotha Aircraft Company was given the job of series production of the Horten brothers' Ho IX all-wing fighter, which would be known as the Horten Ho 229 . After receiving the plans and design data, Gotha engineers found some areas for improvement. The Ho 229 was limited in space to install new equipment or to add more crew members. More importantly, since the engines were to be enclosed in the wing, different engines could not be fitted without extensive aerodynamic testing, which was not possible time wise considering the worsening war situation for Germany.
The Gotha designers, led by Dr. Ing. Hünerjäger, proposed an alternate all-wing design to the RLM in January 1945 which used many of the construction techniques as the Horten aircraft but had the advantage of being able to be modified with new equipment and engines without changing the flying characteristics greatly. The basic construction was to be a welded steel tube frame covered by plywood and "Formholz", a molded and formed wood sheathing.
The Gotha Go P.60A was a flying wing that was powered by two turbojet engines near the rear of the wing center section, one above the wing and one below. One advantage to this arrangement was that any jet engine could be fitted, and maintenance would be easier with the engines in the exposed nacelles. However, in the designed Go P.60A, two BMW 003A-1 with 800 kp (1763 lbs) of thrust were to be used at first. Three fuel tanks were enclosed within the wings, one 1200 liter (317 gallon) tank in each outer wing panel and one 1200 liter (317 gallon) tank behind the cockpit. The pressurized and armored cockpit, located in the extreme nose, held two men who were in a prone (lying down) position. The prone position had the advantage of allowing the crew to withstand G-forces better, and was researched in the Berlin B9 test aircraft. This system was also used in the DFS 228 high altitude reconnaissance aircraft and the Henschel Hs 132 jet powered dive bomber. The main landing gear legs retracted to the front and rotated 90 degrees to lay flat. The nose gear was offset to the port side and retracted to the rear.
To cure stall during landing, the wing leading edge was fitted with hydraulically activated split flaps. There were also a pair of conventional split flaps mounted at the rear which were installed with a 15 degree forward sweep and also could be used as air brakes. The other three types of control were:

* Elevators/Elevons - located in the inner trailing edge of the wing and were provided with auxiliary trim tabs
* Ailerons - located in the outer trailing edge of the wing and had internally balanced control flaps
* Drag Rudders - located in the wing tips at a 18 degree angle (to the aircraft centerline), they were designed for the pilot to be used during high speed maneuvers

Armament was to be four MK 108 30mm machine cannon (150 rounds inner cannon, 175 rounds outer cannon) for the Höhenjäger (High Altitude Fighter) version, two MK 103 30mm machine cannon (175 rounds per gun) for the Zerstörer (Heavy Fighter) version and two MK 108 30mm machine cannon and two RB 50/18 cameras for the Aufklärer (Reconnaissance) version. The Höhenjäger (High Altitude Fighter) version could also to be fitted with a Walter HWK 509B rocket engine to increase the ceiling and climb rate, and was thus designated the Gotha Go P.60A/R .
One of the main criticisms of the Go P.60A was the difficulty for the crew to escape while in flight. One solution was to mount both jet engines below the wing, and this proposed version was to be known as the Go P.60A-2 . Unfortunately, this configuration reduced the roll rate in combat and was eliminated. Although further versions were to have some sort of ejection device for the crew, the war's end prevented the completion of the Gotha Go P.60A.

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Bump. Come on guys, I know i'm not the only one interested in advanced Nazi technology.

There is no denying it, that the Nazis Scientists did have some very interesting ideas, projects, and experiments, granted they had enough time to build all of them. I'm just curious as to whether or not any of this is aerodynamic enough to actually fly and get off the ground.

I would love to see some of these aircraft take off, maybe it's about time someone made an attempt at constructing them.

Shattered OUT...

Ive seen most of those shows on the history channel, and actually did some informal research into these wondar waffen projects. Most of the "wild and weird" ideas were aircraft and missile ideas that could of been designed and built in the 30's with the technology present, but were not because of either lack of interest or funds. The German surface to air intercepter missile, the wasserfall, was, in 1945, "amazing" but used mostly technology that had been around a while. The only "new" idea was the radar system.

The horton's had been flying their tailless aircraft since the 30's also, but only in late war period did they get attention as conventional aircraft were simply overwhelmed by the allies, not to say they werent effective.

People often disregard the sheer volume of "wacky" projects the Germans were diving into near the end. THey expended huge amounts of manpower producing rockets, rocket bases, shielded production facilities, and research. To think it was worth while is up in the air, but it cost them. Same with aircraft and armor design.

And remember, the germans were not special in terms of this technology. The british, americans, and even the russians all had missile, jet, aircraft, tank, and otherwise wondar waffen projects. Tupolev (anyone who knows aircraft better know this guy...) was researching long range bombers powered by jet engines. While he did not have the knowledge to produce the engines, he had the bombers built with props and then, when converted to jets, functioned very well. The British argueably had superior jet designs and aircraft and given the material diverted from conventional aircraft, could of overshadowed the luftwaffe.

The germans were and the end of the rope, and had nothing to lose in trying all these designs, and dont forget, the vast majority of them failed horribly and wasted unknown millions of hours and materials.

Originally posted by Raideur

And remember, the germans were not special in terms of this technology. The british, americans, and even the russians all had missile, jet, aircraft, tank, and otherwise wondar waffen projects. Tupolev (anyone who knows aircraft better know this guy...) was researching long range bombers powered by jet engines. While he did not have the knowledge to produce the engines, he had the bombers built with props and then, when converted to jets, functioned very well. The British argueably had superior jet designs and aircraft and given the material diverted from conventional aircraft, could of overshadowed the luftwaffe.

The Russians never flew a jet aircraft in WWII, they had a rocket powered contraption that only had an endurance of 15 minutes.
Also I challenge you to find a superior British or american jet aircraft in WWII compared to German designs. The Germans were the only ones researching supersonic flight in the world as well ( they had the worlds only supersonic wind tunnel ).

Originally posted by Raideur
Ive seen most of those shows on the history channel, and actually did some informal research into these wondar waffen projects. Most of the "wild and weird" ideas were aircraft and missile ideas that could of been designed and built in the 30's with the technology present, but were not because of either lack of interest or funds. The German surface to air intercepter missile, the wasserfall, was, in 1945, "amazing" but used mostly technology that had been around a while. The only "new" idea was the radar system. .

The germans were and the end of the rope, and had nothing to lose in trying all these designs, and dont forget, the vast majority of them failed horribly and wasted unknown millions of hours and materials.

I think it was more than this. Like any R&D program theirs alot more failures than success, that is well known. But the Germans even before the war started, had the new weapons that would be viewed as essential in the post war battlefield...already designed and ready for development. I'm thinking of the Helicopter , Jet and Guided missile family [AShM , ASM, SAM, AAM , ATGM] based on wireguidance and radio guidance etc. Both would have worked and with Germany's 'command economy' and 'wage and price controls', they would not have broken the bank to weaponizing them.

This is especially true if such efforts replace more useless weapons like the V-1 and V-2 . Example the V-2 cost 5 BRM to develope and massproduce. The USA B-29 program cost 4 Bdollars [~ 6.5 BRm ]. So which would have served Germany better in 1944; hundreds of V-2 rockets per month or hundreds of B-29 type high altitude bombers [He-277] per month.

But before these weapons could be developed ,the Hitlers team decided they were not needed since the war was all but won [Goering, mid 1940]. So all the special research programs were suspended /cancelled until after Stalingrad [early 1943] when all of a sudden Hitler siezed upon them to save his hide.By the time these programs were revived and prototyping completed ,the war was all but over.So Goering ended up being right

The few programs that survived [Fritz X AShM and Hs-293 ASM] were completed in 1942 and operational by 1943, giving a good indicator of when all of the other programs would have been operational had they continued development.

Hitler was not very good at the nuts and bolts of warmongering . While most of Germanies other opponents spent the 1930s retooling their industries towards mass weapons production, Hitler dissmissed the notion of mass produced weapons and opted for quality over quantiy. So Germany ended up with over engineered weapons that looked good but could never be produced in enough numbers. Instead of regearing the industry towards what the strategy needed, they adapted their weapons to fit the existing industry and tweeked them to the max. That resulted in mutlipule of small costly production runs of over engineered models built by different companies for each service branch...massive waste and duplication, very inefficent and coslty logistically.

This is despite the fact that on the other hand Hitler accepted the need for mass production in areas like ammo and sythnetic fuel. But he never made the plans for increases in mass production until well into the war. Initial prewar plans called for annual production of ~40,000 planes per year and a 2-3 fold increase in ammo production, within a year of the start of the war. Worse, German Scientists and industrialist understood mass production well enough and they even had military leadership calling for such an overhaul of the planned 'war economy' as far back as 1934. Much of Speers so called 'production miracle' of 1943/44 was German finally adapting to western mass production techniqes and design philosophy.

If you remove Hitler from the process of rearmament and war weaponrary, to say nothing of operational mircomanagement of the war effort, Germany ends up so much better off that they are probably capable of winning a european war and maybe even keeping the USA out of Europe.

What could Hitler do? More of the political deals like 'Non Agression pact' with USSR. If he had stuck to politics there may have been deals like ; securing the captured French fleet to boost the German /Italian navies and offered as a carrot to lure Turkey and Spain into the Axis side. With Spain to shut down Gibralta and the eastern Med, plus Italy in the mid Med and Turkey to help shut down the western Med , the soft underbelly of Europe can be secured from the allies. With Turkey as a basis of operations, siezing the Soviet oil in the caucases, can be done in 1941 and the Middle East then opened up to Nazie exploitation by 1942/43.

If your looking for a late 1930s boondoggle to expropriate for funding try the 'West Wall', 3.5 BRM and 1.25 million tons of steel wasted. Another is the missmanagement of the Army . In the mid 1930s Hitler had insisted that the Wehrmacht had to be operational by 1940 for a war with France and Poland only . Despite the WW-I experience Hitler firmly believed he could control events and keep the Soviets and Brits out of the war until 1943. So the Army was target to 100 division base. But by 1937/38 this all changed as it finally dawned on Hitler finally that he may have to fight England AND France in the west.He still stubornly clung to his beliefs but the Army had to prepare.

The German Army was forced to retarget to 150 divisions....but still operational by 1940. What happened? Army budget trippled [3.5 BRM to 9-10 BRM] and the army gobbled up 1/2 the steel allocated. So all KM warship production stalled and slowed down while 'Karnhall synthetic' fuel program and the JU-89 strategic bomber had to be canceled. Had this target been set from the start [1934] Gemany would have been forced into mutli year production programs of 'mass producable' weapons and programs eliminating wastage, thus saving 7-10 BRM without useing more resources. Plane, tank/AFV production would have doubled during this period 1935-1940.

That freed up money and resources could have doubled the German Navy and boosted synthetic fuel production [Karinhall] and built a strategic bomber. These changes would have forced other changes like the Ju-88 to remain a fast [400 mph] fighter/bomber and full development of the RADAR and Magnetic torpedos/mines for the Navy. The left over funds would have allowed development of Helicopters [Flettner 282 OH] , SAMs [schmetterling] ASM [Hs-293] , ATGM [ X-7 & X-4] and AAM [Ru-344 AAM version of X-4].

Okay lets get this thread back a rollin




Recognize that guy? That's right, thats SS Wernher von Braun, in 1943.
Wernher von Braun

Known as one of the leading Nazi scientist in the development of rocket technology such as the A-4 ballistic missle (later renamed the Vergeltungswaffe 2), and the supersonic Wasserfall anti-aircraft missile. In June, 1945 Cordell Hull (US Secretary of State) approved Von Braun and his scientist transfer over to the United States, from the defeated Nazi Germany to continue their valuable research.This started Operation Paperclip.


There are three men you should know about in this time period: Arthur Rudolph, Kurt Debus, and Hubertus Strughold

Arthur Rudolph|

chief operations director at Nordhausen, where 20,000 slave labourers died producing V-2 missiles. Led the team which built the Saturn V rocket. Described as "100 per cent Nazi, dangerous type"

Kurt Debus

rocket launch specialist, another SS officer. His report stated: "He should be interned as a menace to the security of the Allied Forces."

Hubertus Strughold

later called "the father of space medicine", designed Nasa's on-board life-support systems. Some of his subordinates conducted human "experiments" at Dachau and Auschwitz, where inmates were frozen and put into low-pressure chambers, often dying in the process.

These men were cleared of their crimes, but since these men were experts in their field, the United Sates Government needed them in their possession.

Horten Ho 229

With its radar-absorbing carbon impregnated plywood skin and swept-back single wing, the 1944 Horten Ho 229 was arguably the first stealth aircraft.The US military made one available to Northrop Aviation, the company which would produce the $2bn B-2 Stealth bomber - to all intents and purposes a modern clone of the Horten - a generation later.

Cruise missiles are still based on the design of the V-1 missile and the scramjets powering Nasa's state-of-the-art X-43 hypersonic aircraft owe much to German jet pioneers.

Source: news.bbc.co.uk...

To date, the nation with the most patents per capita is ours truly, Germany. They are a nation of inventors, great minds, and scientists. However, they are also, from a historical point of view, also highly militaristic, at least the Northern germans, aka Prussians. During the first half of the 20th century it is arguable that this allowed their armed forces to consistantly outperform other nations.

However, I still would argue that though exotic, the German technology of the 40's was not the hollywood wonder weapons they are often claimed to be. The vast majority of their troops still used the K98 bolt carbine, their primary fighter was the BF109 from the late 30's and unlike many others nations that did achieve advanced technology the Germans never had, focused vast resources on often fruitless efforts to correct their stagering obsolences on many areas of armaments. This was only partitally sucessful.....

Everyone thinks hitler was a madmane or insane or an idiot. This is not true. Hitler had scientists develop long range missilles. He worked on vertical take off. Saldy even his killing of the jews served a purpose. He gave the people of Germany a common enemy. he convinced everyone world war one was there fault. Also few people Know that Hitler tried to stop the murdering but his generals did it anyways.
The real stupid ones during the war were USA and Russia. They had plenty of warnings a bout peral harbor nd Germanys invasion of russia. Did they listen? No! Just think about this next time you call Adolf Hitler an idiot.

Originally posted by aiex72
Everyone thinks hitler was a madmane or insane or an idiot.

Because he was.

This is not true.

Yes it is, his mind was warped by shell shock, rejection and imprisonment and became fixated on blaming the Jews, Gypsies et al for all of Germany's ills. He was a nutter.

Hitler had scientists develop long range missilles.

They weren't his idea, when he was desperate he wanted his scientists to develop every idea they had. That some of them were actually good ones is not to his credit.

He worked on vertical take off.

No, he really *never* did.

Saldy even his killing of the jews served a purpose. He gave the people of Germany a common enemy. he convinced everyone world war one was there fault.

Because it was what HE believed, and you don't think he was mad. Also, wow, what an understatement you opened with there!

Also few people Know that Hitler tried to stop the murdering but his generals did it anyways.

Utter bollocks. His generals were scared to death of him after his constant brinkmaship with Britian and France ALWAYS seemed to work, until 1939 anyway. The night of the long knives was on his own express orders. As was the 'ethnic cleansing'.

The real stupid ones during the war were USA and Russia. They had plenty of warnings a bout peral harbor nd Germanys invasion of russia. Did they listen? No! Just think about this next time you call Adolf Hitler an idiot.

The biggest idiots prior to WW2 were Britain, France and the USA (in that order). During the war it was Hitler, and his conduct of a war his generals didn't want and his forces were not ready for, every step of the way.

[edit on 16-7-2010 by waynos]

reply to post by waynos


I havent been on here for a few years and was reading old posts and i have to admit your right he was certifibly insane