Masonic Government involved with Child Abuse and Pedophilia?

Originally posted by suzy ryan
That is a sad thing that stinks of conpiracy.

Yes it does -- of the Anti-Masonic conspiracy.

In fact, when you start investigating things like the sensationalist Waterhouse report, if you check sources OTHER than David Icke, you find that the abuse wasn't all sexual (much of it involved beatings for "misbehavior") and that there's not really a Masonic connection:
news.bbc.co.uk...

The issue is a very serious one that needs to be discussed on as many forums as possible for more people to be saved from the horrors that others CONSPIRE to do and coverup.

And for others to denounce lies and truth-stretching by people like David Icke, who still maintains that the British Royal house is a bunch of lizards, in spite of evidence to the contrary.

Defend masonry all you like, thats fine but please let others share their experiences without having to answer questions about their mental capacity and let the readers decide who and to what degree they want to believe.

I don't think that anyone denounces support groups. What they denounce is victim-creating groups, where people join to get a piece of the "me too" pie.

One of the most important steps of getting justice is finding the courage to file a complaint. Reading that you are not alone and that there are people out their who will believe and support you, can provide that extra bit of courage.

Actually, one of the most important steps of getting justice is making a VALID legal complaint. I lived next door to a woman who was a busybody and thought everyone who didn't go to her church was involved in a Satanic plot. She used to call the police to report Satanists poisoning her dogs (which she kept in a back yard that was just filthy -- never cleaned up their poop) and other things.

The Valid, Legal complaint is something that has never been found.

Suzy - all I'm asking is that you do what you're asking of others.

When I've made a point, an argument, a rebuttal, I've included evidence to support my claim.

I'm still yet to see proof of any claims made on this thread involving SRA and the Masons.

It's all very well asking for others to be fair....but it has to go both ways, suzy.

Originally posted by Indellkoffer
She used to call the police to report Satanists poisoning her dogs

Indellkoffer,

Her last name wasn't by chance "Necros" was it?

Just curious.

Regards,

Originally posted by suzy ryan
If my arguements are circular it's only because I LET you and pro-masons lead in the dance SO others could get a good look at your fancy footwork.

Oh right, I forgot you're SOOOO clever! My look at how silly you make us evil Freemasons look! Riiiight, you only wish you were clever enough to expose non-existant "dances" in my posts. Making stuff up will do nothing for your credibility, and chasing an imaginary enemy sure as hell isn't going to make you any less disturbed. Your convoluted accusations do nothing except make YOU look like the fool.

I knew I shouldn't get into an argument with a crazy person, it'll only end up making one just as nuts. I'm not going to give you the attention you are desperately seeking.


[edit on 15-8-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by sebatwerk
I'm not going to give you the attention you are desperately seeking.

I think you just did.

Now can we get back to the topic.

Good grief!!! I can't believe this thread is STILL alive!!!

Perhaps if Suzy or eudaimonia could post some evidence of the claimed misdeeds by Freemasons which could then be discussed. Thus far, only accusations have been presented. I'm not saying give us names, addresses or any other nonsense but no one can honestly expect to make outrageous claims without something to back it up.

Suzy has stated that ritual satanic abuse of children is a huge problem and I agree if proven to be fact, but I fail see how that relates to Freemasonry in any way. Freemasonry has NOTHING to do with satanism in any way, shape or form.

So I guess what I'm really looking for is proof that Freemasons as a fraternity are responsible for ANY of these crimes.

[edit on 15-8-2005 by AngelWitch]

Originally posted by AngelWitch
Good grief!!! I can't believe this thread is STILL alive!!!

Me either. Unfortunately, people love their tabloid gossip much more than Truth.

So I guess what I'm really looking for is proof that Freemasons as a fraternity are responsible for ANY of these crimes.

My Brother, I hope you're not holding your breath!

That would be a great start, Angelwitch, absolutely.

It'd also be good if someone - anyone - could provide reliable evidence that SRA actually exists in the context that we keep seeing in this thread.

Out of sheer curiosity (and because I apparently don't know how to stop myself from doing this: - I think it's a genetic trait), has anyone else read "Satanic Panic", by Jeffrey Victor?

O.K. let's say a brother comes to another brother and tells him that a neighbour and his wife claim they caught him interfereing with their toddler. They are pressing charges. He swears he didn't, that it's just a conspiracy against him because they are jealous of the wonderfull life he has. He gives the sign of being in dire straits. Would the brother believe the parents or believe and help the brother with glowing charactor references?

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Would the brother believe the parents or believe and help the brother with glowing charactor references?

Why would they protect someone who has broken their rules? Trust me Child molestation is against masonic rules. I'm not a Mason and even I know that!

Originally posted by suzy ryan
O.K. let's say a brother comes to another brother and tells him that a neighbour and his wife claim they caught him interfereing with their toddler. They are pressing charges. He swears he didn't, that it's just a conspiracy against him because they are jealous of the wonderfull life he has. He gives the sign of being in dire straits. Would the brother believe the parents or believe and help the brother with glowing charactor references?

I’ll attempt to make heads or tails of your convoluted scenario... (I’m not sure what “interfereing” with a toddler is).

A third person removed from an incident (whether a Freemason or not) would have to sit idly by while the authorities investigated the complaint. Their findings ( it's called evidence, something you seem to find unnecessary in your accusations) would be forwarded to the prosecuting body of the jurisdiction at hand (who are typically gung ho, and love to get this kind of case because of the press coverage). They deeming the evidence sufficient will indict the offender (Freemason or not) at which time the third person can make a decision. If they feel the charges are unwarranted, or that they can provide character witness that would contradict the prevailing testimony, and were willing to give it, so be it. I can tell you this, in my Lodge, in my District, in my Grand Lodge, and in the same that I have traveled to, if a Freemason stood trial on the charge of child molestation (or any similar charge), they would bear those charges alone. The Craft as I know it, and by the Constitution and Bylaws that I answer to within my Jurisdiction, a Freemason so charged would face suspension upon being brought to trial, and if convicted, would be expelled. The fact that the Brother is suspended relieves the Brethren at large of any Obligation to him, thus providing an atmosphere free from impropriety. Any action by anyone after said suspension would be purely based on personal grounds, and would prevent the Fraternity from any undue involvement or embarrassment. Should the member be found not guilty, the member could be reinstated at the discretion of his Lodge/Grand Lodge (no guarantee).

I have no doubt that you’ll pull quite the circus act of jumping through hoops (flaming) to try and insert your concept of reality in order to get your desired result, the only outcome that can possibly be is a grand conspiracy of immense proportions involving every level of society and which is completely invisible to all… except you. Those that perpetrate these acts will be impervious to detection or prosecution, but while a vicious and hungry media is befuddled and unaware, and law enforcement is completely impotent, you see with uncanny clarity… With such unusual acuity, are you not beginning to see a pattern? I thought not… But others surely do.

Perry Mason Monkeys, not just for the thrilling plot twist anymore…

O.K. let's say a brother comes to another brother and tells him that a neighbour and his wife claim they caught him interfereing with their toddler. They are pressing charges. He swears he didn't, that it's just a conspiracy against him because they are jealous of the wonderfull life he has. He gives the sign of being in dire straits. Would the brother believe the parents or believe and help the brother with glowing charactor references?

This scenario really doesn't concern me. It sounds like a private matter.

As has been mentioned, child abuse does occur. I've posted enough material to make anyone think about how it can be so well organized and hidden. I'm not accusing Masonry, but I do think there needs to be an internal investigation by Masons, even if they keep it in house and privately execute the offenders. That's my hope, if any of these crimes link back to Masons.

I'm done with this thread tho' because I don't like the title and I'd have to agree that the evidence, at this point, is not enough to convict a whole group of people.

Organized, ritualized abuse of children does occur, and I've posted links in other threads, less inflammatory than this one.

Originally posted by smallpeeps
I'm not accusing Masonry, but I do think there needs to be an internal investigation by Masons, even if they keep it in house and privately execute the offenders.

There is not enough evidence to warrant such an investigation! You said it yourself! You think that heresay and unfounded claims by conspiracy theorists warrants a serious investigation? You're kidding, right? If there were enough evidence, however, the matter would surely be a criminal one and a lodge of masons would be putting themselves in danger opf concealing a crime, or knowing about it and not reporting it to the authorities.

What I'm getting at is that this has NOTHING to do with Freemasonry and therefore is not the fraternity's responsibility to investigate and prosecute. If there is enough evidence, then the brother will (like Mirth stated) be suspended, put on trial, expelled and probably go to jail. Plain and simple, no "internal investigation" needed.

Freemasons are not and were not idiots. The men who created and shaped the organization knew how to create an organization that could protect itself from corruption, abuse and criminal behavior. Sure, Freemasonry has its problems, but they are nothing like what silly theorists blindly accuse it of.


[edit on 16-8-2005 by sebatwerk]

let me start by saying that in this country (America), you are Innocent until
proven guilty. that proof must be "beyond a reasonable doubt." I believe the
quote most often quoted in reference to this is " it is better that 100 guilty
are freed than to have 1 innocent convicted". I submit for your consideration
the OJ case, the jury NEVER said he was innocent. They said there were
doubts, that the state did not prove its case, etc,etc, and therefore because
there was " reasonable doubt" they had no choice but to aquit.

In some countries the opposite is the rule (Mexico and France come to mind),
the Napoloenic (sp?) in which you are guilty until proven innocent pervails.

the 'dance' is to make people too dizzy to see straight

sounds to me like to many of Tim Learys parties to me.

as for SRA you might want to investigate Kerr Cuchlain's writings on this
subject as well as the most vocal adherents of it.

Witch Hunts

In summary, a short list of sources relating to SRA and also "false memories", as that also seems to be a hotly contested, and related, topic:

Wiki entry on SRA

religioustolerance.org

About "Michelle Remembers"

Christian Research's article, reprinted at rickross.com

On repressed memories

On repressed memories, MPD and SRA

APA page on abuse and memories

Science Daily's experiment

Complex issues in researching False Memory Syndrome

Site advocating the restriction of "questionable" therapy techniques

To make this list more complete, I'm asking for your help, fellow ATS-ers. I need reliable sources to confirm the existance of SRA. Either list them here so I can update as required, or U2U me, or whatever makes you feel more comfortable.

Thank you all.

I'd also request that everyone reads the material contained in these sources; I've got a book list too, but as I can't physically type out the contents of each book (which would be illegal anyway) it might seem pointless adding them here - I'll do this if it seems appropriate.

Originally posted by NeonHelmet
I can bring you evidence but it is text files on my computer and I would have to get permission from the moderators to post it all here remember more than 2000 pages

Please don't post 2,000 pages worth of text.


What you could do is maybe upload it via the member upload, and then provide the link. u2u me for any questions, help, etc.

Originally posted by suzy ryan
O.K. let's say a brother comes to another brother and tells him that a neighbour and his wife claim they caught him interfereing with their toddler.

Strange, this doesn't sound like proof, this doesn't look like documentation of abuse, sounds like a meaningless hypothetical situation.

Would the brother believe the parents or believe and help the brother with glowing charactor references?

Meaningless and pointless. Good combo.

What evidence is there of Ritual Satanic Abuse? Please demonstrate how you are able to distinguish between 'actual' Ritual Satanic Abuse and false memories of such abuse. We know that the false memories exist, we know that there are bouts of hysterical paranoia that run thru society pertaining to fears of Ritual Satanic Abuse. Infact, it seems that the majority of claims of Ritual Satanic Abuse are false.

You are simply pointing to the claim that there is a conspiracy as proof that there is a conspiracy, especially by suggesting that people 'google' these alleged conspiracies. What evidence do you have that:

1. There are Satanic worshiping Cults that ritually abuse Children
   
2. That Freemasonry ritually abuses children
   
3. That either the Satanic Cults or Freemasonry run the government and are engaging in a coverup of obvious Satanic Child Abuse
   

Do you have any evidence for these things, and by what method are you able to sort out the False Memories (which we know exist) from real memories?

Also, please explain why Freemasonry is being targeted here, when the Catholic Church is involved in sex-abuse cover-ups and when the various Protestant Christian churches are also involved in orgiastic-child-abuse rituals??? I mean, to target freemasonry, of all things, is absurd. The concern here obviously isn't for abuse victims, its a paranoia about the Freemasons and other secret societies.

Originally posted by Nygdan
The concern here obviously isn't for abuse victims, its a paranoia about the Freemasons and other secret societies.

The same thing had crossed my mind. Ms. Ryan has ignored the facts and evidence of Christian Ritual Abuse, and has instead focused on a fictional relationship between Masonry and such abuse. This does indeed seem to indicate that her agenda is geared more toward spreading her own ideology than to assist any victims.

This thread seems pointless. The author and Suzy Ryan haven't shown ANYTHING in the way of evidence of thier allegations and I don't expect they will. I'm done with this one, unless they post something worth while.

O.K. now I get it. ATS isn't a conspiracy site, where posters can share their thoughts and experiences, but an arm of the American court system, that has RULED, based on the evidence IT CHOOSES to accept or reject, that Satanic Ritual Abuse does not exist, along with any other organized child sex trade. No wonder so many children go missing in your country. How many LEADS GO UNFOLLOWED BECAUSE THEY INCLUDE THINGS YOU CHOOSE NOT TO BELIEVE, or because they will lead to exposing "repected" individuals or groups. Thomas Crowne has stated his witnessing of things he wouldn't give details of, is he to be labled a lier, in need of 'medication' or any of the other things thrown at others who have likewise experienced such things and likewise, for fear or protection of loved ones, don't give identifying details? Why are those who defend a certain secret society also so quick to state that SRA doesn't exist when they already claim to be unaware of it or the ORGANIZED CHILD SEX TRADE? Why are those who have come across organized child sex abuse and simply want to raise awareness of it and THE CONSPIRACY TO KEEP IT "UNPROVEN" concidered by some to be lying just because they won't provide identifying details to an audience that includes some so obviously unsympathetic, insulting and determined to push the" false memoury" lie as their answer to anyone raising the issue?