Masonic Government involved with Child Abuse and Pedophilia?

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Intrepid, WHY are THEY still allowed to throw personal insults? I have a very strong opinion as to why but I'll keep that to myself.

Why suzy,

That wasn't "personal" ANYTHING. Are you insinuating that I was suggesting that YOU get one? Don't flatter yourself, so.

I simply asked the Moderator (who, by the way is NOT a Mason) a question.

We ("they") DO have a right to ask a question, don't we?

[edit on 14-8-2005 by senrak]

Originally posted by suzy ryan

Originally posted by senrak
Intrepid,

Since you and some of the other Mods don't like me posting pictures of 'em anymore (and I've tried to restrain myself from it lately) I was just curious. Do you think along the same lines as the "warn" flags that are divied out sometimes, you might design some "Fruitcake" flags?

This thread would certainly be a good place to "try 'em out"

Intrepid, WHY are THEY still allowed to throw personal insults? I have a very strong opinion as to why but I'll keep that to myself.

Suzy, what makes you think that senrak was talking about you? This is an old issue. Also this is the second time I've seen you complain about a personal attack that imo isn't there.

A little chillin goes a long way.

Originally posted by senrak
I simply asked the Moderator (who, by the way is NOT a Mason) a question.

We ("they") DO have a right to ask a question, don't we?

However, sometimes a u2u may be more prudent.

Asking to "fruitcake" anyone is an insult to ALL who you and others have insulted on this site. It didn't add anything to the debate but another 'clever' little insult. If however it's O.K. to ask for something in that vein, can I ask for Folk like you to get a "smarmy" warning?

Back to the topic, my experience is that masons from all walks of life are involved in the practice and coverup child sexual abuse and chosing to disbelieve or lie about it does not change those experiences.

Also it is sad that that some brother/sisterhoods have hijacked alot of support groups and push the line that survivers should only worry about their personal "healing" instead of seeking justice. Then when they are 'healed' enough to speak out they have their mental health questioned to the point where they are not believed by those who so despirately want to believe their world can't be that evil.

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Asking to "fruitcake" anyone is an insult to ALL who you and others have insulted on this site.

Whatever you want to think.

It didn't add anything to the debate

OH! I see! This is a "debate" I wasn't aware of that. I thought this was a "deny ignorance" site. I didn't realize it was a debate team. No WONDER you got so bent out of shape.

but another 'clever' little insult.

[blush] why thank you.

If however it's O.K. to ask for something in that vein, can I ask for Folk like you to get a "smarmy" warning?

You can ask but I've been here quite a while and if I can't get a "fruitcake" flag designed, I seriously doubt you can push a "smarmy" one through. Probably because the vast majority of English-speaking posters here have likely never even heard that word.

Back to the topic, my experience is that masons from all walks of life are involved in the practice and coverup child sexual abuse and chosing to disbelieve or lie about it does not change those experiences.

Let me ask you this. Did you actually SEE their Masonic membership credentials? Because if you didn't, I'd say you can't be SURE they're Masons, now CAN you? Hmmm?????

Also it is sad that that some brother/sisterhoods have hijacked alot of support groups and push the line that survivers should only worry about their personal "healing" instead of seeking justice.

Crimony! WHY (WHY WHY WHY WHY) do you think this is a freakin' "SUPPORT GROUP?" This is a DISCUSSION FORUM. None of us are here to "SUPPORT" ANYONE. You're on the WRONG list, how hard is that to understand?

Then when they are 'healed' enough to speak out they have their mental health questioned to the point where they are not believed by those who so despirately want to believe their world can't be that evil.

Some of them apparently aren't "healed" enough to recognize the difference between a DISCUSSION FORUM and a SUPPORT GROUP.

Sheesh.

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Back to the topic, my experience is that masons from all walks of life are involved in the practice and coverup child sexual abuse and chosing to disbelieve or lie about it does not change those experiences.

I would believe it if you could show me just one piece of credible evidence, or even if your story was credible... but, alas, it's not. I find it comical that you think you can come in here and tell me what it going on in my own organization. Your story is completely absurd and it is MY experience that YOU are the one making things up or choosing to disbelieve the truth.

Look, I know you, Senrak, are too intelligent to have so baddly misunderstood me. This ISSUE has sprouted alot of support groups.

People who then feel strong enough to share their experiences on CONSPIRACY sites, like this, find themselves beating their heads against razor wire so the topic gets dropped and less people get to read that they are believed and not alone.

That is a sad thing that stinks of conpiracy.

The issue is a very serious one that needs to be discussed on as many forums as possible for more people to be saved from the horrors that others CONSPIRE to do and coverup.

Defend masonry all you like, thats fine but please let others share their experiences without having to answer questions about their mental capacity and let the readers decide who and to what degree they want to believe.

Again, though anyone can read that this thread has been hijacked from the issue of serious child abuse to an attack on all who can exept that masons, AMONG OTHERS, are involved, that isn't what I said before. I was talking about support groups which any person can see this site isn't. I was warning survivers to not fall for the lie that personal healing is more important than seeking justice.

One of the most important steps of getting justice is finding the courage to file a complaint. Reading that you are not alone and that there are people out their who will believe and support you, can provide that extra bit of courage.

As a good mason, I'm sure you can accept that protecting and defending the powerless of this world is a good thing and a little more important than defending the feelings the secure and powerfull.

Originally posted by suzy ryan
The issue is a very serious one that needs to be discussed on as many forums as possible for more people to be saved from the horrors that others CONSPIRE to do and coverup.

This actually spoke to me. Are you a part of an online movement to bring this issue to "as many forums as possible"?

Originally posted by suzy ryan
As a good mason, I'm sure you can accept that protecting and defending the powerless of this world is a good thing and a little more important than defending the feelings the secure and powerfull.

How can you call him a good mason NOW, when 2 posts ago you were saying that all masons are guilty of, if not directly raping children, covering it up and trying to convince others it doesn't happen?!?

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by suzy ryan
The issue is a very serious one that needs to be discussed on as many forums as possible for more people to be saved from the horrors that others CONSPIRE to do and coverup.

This actually spoke to me. Are you a part of an online movement to bring this issue to "as many forums as possible"?

No. I just surfed in because of interest in ancient civilizatoins and was amazed at the disproportion of support for brother/sisterhoods compared to that for it's victims.

I only joined already existing treads on these issues. I didn't start any of them because I useually like to avoid the 'masonic dance' of; twist, turn, insult, ignore, ignor, insult, turn, twist, DENY, DENY, DENY and shake it all about.

Sorry but I have to ask, do you not think disscussing organized child abuse isn't as important as protecting the feelings of masons? I have never said the problem only involves masons. There are many groups, "brother/sisterhoods" practicing evil acts on the powerless. Thankfully they also contain the remorsefull who do support those hurt by them to what little degrees they safely can.

Like I said before, I handed my files over to Whistleblowers years ago. A senior (mason) policeofficer broke an important promise to me and my children so I felt the details of my experiences should go to those collecting and corrlalating, names, dates and details and give myself a break from dealing with any of it.

I do find it 'interesting', as other posters have, that when discussing "organized CHILD RAPE and MURDER", any perceived hint of mason "bashing" is treated like THE unforgivable crime. That's what 'speaks to me'.

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by suzy ryan
As a good mason, I'm sure you can accept that protecting and defending the powerless of this world is a good thing and a little more important than defending the feelings the secure and powerfull.

How can you call him a good mason NOW, when 2 posts ago you were saying that all masons are guilty of, if not directly raping children, covering it up and trying to convince others it doesn't happen?!?

Masons from all walks of life eg. police, doctors, teachers, politicians, etc. Not ALL masons or ALL police, etc. Infact I have consistantly said, Not all, of any group. You know this but you can't resist the "dance".

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Masons from all walks of life eg. police, doctors, teachers, politicians, etc. Not ALL masons or ALL police, etc. Infact I have consistantly said, Not all, of any group. You know this but you can't resist the "dance".

I know this, but I can't resist the "dance"? What the hell are you talking about?!? The only thing I know is that your convoluted posts and circular logic make understanding what you're trying to say incredibly difficult. Don't try to accuse me of knowing what you're talking about, but trying to argue anyways because you have no idea of such things.

While we are on the subject, it seems to me that it is YOU who can't resist "the dance". You continually hijack threads and twist them into your silly little masonic ritual rape victim sob stories that aren't remotely believable, and despite continuous warnings from moderators and blatant contradictions from many Freemasons, who's experiences show us that you are probably lying, you continue to ignore topics and "dance" to the beat of your own drum.

I've avoided replying to you and your claims directly not because they hardly seem worth the time it would take to type out a response, but rather because I feel that you are seriously disturbed and need more therapy than simply going onto a message forum and claiming absurd and unbelievable accusation, cleverly made under the guise of "doing it for the victims". Your pathetic need for attention seems to cloud not just your judgement but also your sense of reason and logic. Who's the one playing games?

[edit on 15-8-2005 by sebatwerk]

Wait a second. suzy what proof do you have of these masons touching or hurting young children? IF you do have proof, then this is a very serious matter and needs to be brought to the athorities. it is not a practice among masons to hurt anyone, especially children.

I have never nor would I EVER touch a child. it's just WRONG. i take it as a personal insult that you think i could ever do this. i am also a federal police officer, dont you think the idea of a fed. going to prison for touching a child in any way would be enough deterance for me personally?

you say that you know masons who have done this. Who were they? i have NEVER met a mason who's touched a child, nor have i ever heard of one. and I AM A MASON!

[edit on 15-8-2005 by umwolves123]

Sebatwerk the 'dance' is to make people too dizzy to see straight through your very narrow, selective arguments but I forgot a couple of 'steps'; spit, stomp. See 3 posts up for the rest of the dance then respond to the issues there that relate to the topic of this thread so people can see that you do care more about justice for the disempowerd (like raped babies) than the pride of an old boys club. If my arguements are circular it's only because I LET you and pro-masons lead in the dance SO others could get a good look at your fancy footwork. Me I'm a humble soul who can take abuse but just don't like ANYBODY being insulted and belittled for finding the courage to speak out about corruption and conspiracy. I will add for others new to this discussion to search out all the pro and anti mason posts before they decide who is hijacking posts away from there topics and why.

posted on 14-8-2005 at 07:16 PM Post Number: 1612007 (post id: 1633900)
Wait a second. suzy what proof do you have of these masons touching or hurting young children? IF you do have proof, then this is a very serious matter and needs to be brought to the athorities. it is not a practice among masons to hurt anyone, especially children.

Been there, done that, hence my ability to call it a conspiracy. My last attempt to have a family of children protected from daily prostitution just had them moved by human services to a less observant neighbourhood. Though it was common knowledge in my neighbourhood (the children ranged from toddlers to primary school age and they innocently boasted about what they did) few others were brave enough to take it to the police as they where their most frequent 'clients'.
Again I ask people, who want to get an idea of how bad the problem is here, to read Neonhelmet's lenghthy post on the first page of this thread.

you realize these are serious alligations your making...IF you truely are serious and children are being used so maliciosly then there area a few places you can go to, assuming you are an american citizen, that have nothing to do with the freemasons. Call child protective services, call the FBI, hell call MY office i dont care if they are masons, whoever hurts children should be behind bars FOREVER.

If they are truely in danger so you say, and you have whitenessed this, then why have you givin up on trying to help them? why are you even posting this, GET ON THE PHONE and do something about it. if you failed before then keep trying.

Why do you think people, all over the world, are moved to take their stories to the streets and publish books on the subject? BECAUSE ALL PROPER CHANNELS SHUT THEM DOWN OR DRAG ON THE 'INVESTIGATIONS' UNTILL WITNESSES DIE OR EVIDENCE IS 'LOST'. Why is it so hard for people to understand IT IS A CONSPIRACY?
Despite being listed as a witness for years I've never been called to give evidence because the cases don't go to trial. Come on now, it's understood by anyone who's had anything to do with the legal system, proof and 'admissable' evidence are distant cousins.
Over the years I've made numerous complaints to everyone from the police to Ombubsman and am assured by them that the families have people 'working' with them only to find they move and the evil is continued on them. I'm far from alone in this experience.
All I want from this site is to ask people to believe anyone who tells, what no decent person wants to believe, and offer them whatever support they can give. Even if it's as simple as not calling them a lier, that is better than the treatment some on this site dish out.
About a decade ago a state government minister raised this issue in parliament and was threatened with being sacked by the party to which they said , fine, they'ld stand as an independant and let the people decide who they believed and supported. The party changed their mind about sacking them at that time. That spoke volumes about our governments belief in the size of this problem.

Ok.

I hate to ask this, and I'm doing so with the utmost respect.

Does everyone here understand the definition of an allegation?

An allegation is not proof that something happened. An allegation is an accusation - and nothing more.

I can sit here and allege that sebatwerk turned up on my doorstep with a hundred purple lillies and a bottle of 1990 Dom Perignon (he didn't). Does that make the allegation true?

of course not.

Suzy - with all due respect, exactly how do you know which of the allegations in question are true, and which are not? So far, I don't recall seeing you even concede that "kids actually do sometimes lie" is a possibility, let alone a likelihood in at least some of these cases that you've mentioned. This really does seem to suggest that you're not willing to even consider any of the rebuttal points which have been brought up.

With regards to support groups - sadly, even adults have been known to tell outright lies to garner emotional support and/or attention. I hate that this happens, but I've watched it from a personal setting and it's pretty despicable. But it happens. This doesn't mean there aren't victims. It does mean though that - simply because humans can, and do, tell lies - perhaps we need to be prudent when analyzing allegations and personal stories. Because I really, really don't think that every personal story of tragedy is actually true. It's possible to give the benefit of the doubt and still require more than just an allegation before we believe someone's story.

As for SRA - once more, nobody has offered proof that it even exists. Nobody. I'm still more than a little interested in seeing what certain posters have to say about the numerous accounts of SRA allegations being falsified.

The best we've seen is the simple (and very true) statement that:

Sex abuse is real, and tears up the lives of the victims.

Do we all understand that just because sex abuse is real, this does not prove that there's any regulated, controlled, Satanic, Masonic or Occult ritual involvement?

Tinkleflower, I ask you to concider the need for balance in discussing such a serious issue. There is no shortage of people who, even when they know better, push the arguements you make. I don't have to make then as well.

I fully understand how hard it is for people to accept that any of their friends or family aren't as sweet as they publicly present and the trauma to them when loved ones are accussed so I have no intention of naming names on a public forum.

You should also accept that I'm not one of those," hang 'em all by the b$#@*" people. I know there are repentant people who help survivers but I'm sure you can undersand the sound reasons for them to remain un-named.

By all means keep making your arguments and respect my right to make mine and let the readers decide how much they choose to believe from both sides. That's fair isn't it?

Originally posted by suzy ryan


By all means keep making your arguments and respect my right to make mine and let the readers decide how much they choose to believe from both sides. That's fair isn't it?

Of course it is. But the problem as I see it as that you're presenting certain things as "facts" which are actually far from being such.

No one is denying that abuse exists. But paranoia-induced witch hunts are abuse too.