Masonic Government involved with Child Abuse and Pedophilia?

That is ABSOLUTELY FALSE. In our obligations (oaths), a mason is first made to state that he understands that the obligations DO NOT interfere with "the duty he owes to God (religion), His country (law), his neighbor (friendship/family) or himself (honor, fortitude, fidelity)!

Additionally, in the part where the mason swears to keep his brethren's secrets, he states that they are only to be LAWFUL secrets.

So much for your silly theory. Do some research before spouting off falsities and lies.

I don't have a theory. I'm just talking, and it is you (as usual) who can't take it. I probably should not have entered this thread but once we get to the "Children are sometimes liars" part, I just can't resist posting, in spite of this clearly being a Mason-baiting thread.

So you're saying Freemasonry should SPY on its members? Like Trinityman already stated. ANY mason can bring masonic charges upon any of his brothers, regardless of degree or position. If a mason knows of wrongdoing by a mason, he should take action against him. There is nothing in masonic oaths that protect a brother from legal persecution for criminal activities, NOTHING!!!

Yeah, and police officers are similarly trusted to report corruption in their fraternity also. What's your point? Just because they can doesn't mean they will. Yes there needs to be a Masonic IAD just like with the police department. What's wrong with that? IAD in the police department is designed to make sure that power is not abused. Why not something like that for Masons?

You are suggesting, perhaps, that a Mason would face no reprisal or shunning by fellow brothers if he outs another Mason who's involved in something seriously heinous or illegal? I doubt this very much. Everything I have heard from the Masons I know (I know only three, but one's a field spook and war vet) tells me that if they had trouble, the brothers would bail them out. They've told this to me directly.

For example, the masons on this forum have made an offer MANY TIMES to people such as MrNECROS (who states that masons have blown up his toilet and dig through his trash) that if he would tell us who the masons are doing this, we would bring masonic charges against them. Of course he refuses, I wonder why

God what would you ATS Masons do without poor Mr. Necros. You'll bring him up anywhere. Is that how the Masonic school of verbal defense teaches you to defend yourselves? Pick on the lowest member and use Ad Hominem attacks? ...Weak.

Is that the kind of guy your group fears?

Maybe there's not as many "wrongdoings", as you call them, going on in the fraternity as you might like to think.

I don't know, Sebat. I'm not saying there's anything going on. But the ferocity with which you descend upon threads like this is very telling, in my opinion. You are going out of your way to step on ants, basically. Why? Why not just ignore threads like this, since you know that your club is so pristinely clean in their power?

Look, in the years to come, if Masons get persecuted again, and I come across a guy wearing a forget-me-not, I will give him shelter and protection if it's in my power to do so, and I'd do so gladly. Masons aren't bad, as a group.

However, when someone defends the entire membership of their group by saying "I know for sure that my brethren would never do such a horrible thing!" they are really stretching their own personal credibility, for there is no way they could know, for sure, what all their brethren are doing. Group thinkers are so boring because of this. They always end up defending their group, at all costs.


[edit on 14-8-2005 by smallpeeps]

Cug, I wasn't singling out anyone but a mentality that puts oneself above all others. So who or what are you loyal to? Justice, those weaker than you? Who's welfare do you put above your own? I'm sure those with babies would like you to clarify. If you were caught in a famine would you see no wrong in eating the weak and 'useless' because you want to live? I'm almost not joking.

Originally posted by intrepid
Please, let's discuss the topic, not each other.

OK, seems that people aren't getting it. Warns to follow. If you can't discuss the topic and can only snipe at one another, get ready for the red flags.

I'm done.

Originally posted by smallpeeps
What's wrong with that? IAD in the police department is designed to make sure that power is not abused. Why not something like that for Masons?

Because, unlike becoming a cop, becoming a mason doesn't give you any power whatsoever, that's why. Freemasonry is a school and a fraternity, nothing more. It is not up to Freemasonry to police it's members, they are all adults and have had their backgrounds thoroughly checked before being admitted into the fraternity. Being a school of morals, it is assumed that the members would be moral and upstanding. If it is found out otherwise, they will be expelled. That simple.

BUT there does not need to be an IAD just because some anti-masons and conspiracy theorists accuse, without proof, masons of wrongdoings at every twist and turn!

You are suggesting, perhaps, that a Mason would face no reprisal or shunning by fellow brothers if he outs another Mason who's involved in something seriously heinous or illegal? I doubt this very much.

I do not. Masons are overly concerned with making sure that the fraternity's image remains pristine and honorable. ANY mason acting in a way that could tarnish the image of the fraternity will be removed promptly, and I don't think there are many masons that would disagree with it (except maybe the mason being kicked out).

Have you not figured out that masons try to protect their organization before they try to protect each other?

God what would you ATS Masons do without poor Mr. Necros. You'll bring him up anywhere. Is that how the Masonic school of verbal defense teaches you to defend yourselves? Pick on the lowest member and use Ad Hominem attacks? ...Weak.

Ad Hominem? Do you know what that means? I was simply giving you an example of an offer that has been made MANY times to clean up Freemasonry. If I know of masons doing something illegal, I wouldn't hesitate to call them out on it. I don't want their actions affecting the reputation of my fraternity.

Is that the kind of guy your group fears?

Spare me your childish attacks.

I don't know, Sebat. I'm not saying there's anything going on. But the ferocity with which you descend upon threads like this is very telling, in my opinion. You are going out of your way to step on ants, basically. Why? Why not just ignore threads like this, since you know that your club is so pristinely clean in their power?

Whatever dude. Yeah, debunking your lies and misinformation about MY organization means that I am concealing guilt, right? Don't be so damn ignorant, OK. I, like so many other masons on this forum, am SICK to death of all the lies being treated like confirmed fact, and that's why I am here to correct them.

In the past, masons HAVE adopted a policy like the one you are suggesting I take, and that is what has lead to idiotic conspiracy theories such as the ones you believe. I'm sick to death of it. If you think that "that is very telling" of Freemasonry's guilt, well then I hope you never become a judge.

However, when someone defends the entire membership of their group by saying "I know for sure that my brethren would never do such a horrible thing!" they are really stretching their own personal credibility, for there is no way they could know, for sure, what all their brethren are doing. Group thinkers are so boring because of this. They always end up defending their group, at all costs.

When has ANY mason claimed something like that? How many times have you seen one of us admit that there are bad apples in every group, including ours, and that there is no way to safeguard ourselves against this? Seriously dude, don't put words in my mouth because that won't fly around here. Now you're just making stuff up.

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Cug, I wasn't singling out anyone but a mentality that puts oneself above all others. So who or what are you loyal to? Justice, those weaker than you? Who's welfare do you put above your own? I'm sure those with babies would like you to clarify. If you were caught in a famine would you see no wrong in eating the weak and 'useless' because you want to live? I'm almost not joking.

The problem is suzy, you are making up your own definition for "Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law."

Now if I said 'You shall have no other gods before Me.' means that Christians can feel free to worship Zeus, Satan, big horned owls, etc. but just make sure they are in the number 2 position, or if I said that means they can not pray to Jesus. those would both be bad interpretations of that commandment.

What "Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law." really means is to find your true calling in life (both physical and spiritual), and then follow that calling. It also infers that no one has a right to stop you from following that true calling. (Every man and every woman is a star. AL I,3)

Now as a Thelemite I believe that "Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law." applies to everybody and because it applies to everybody I can not interfere with others rights to "Do what thou wilt." It also means I'm willing to defend those who are having their rights infringed on by others.

I have simplified the meaning of the Law of Thelema (you can write a book on it), but I think you can get the gist of it.

In a nut shell the stuff your talking about is something no Thelemite will do, or even tolerate to the slightest degree. And to assume that the people doing it are Thelemites (or the O.T.O.) simply because you don't understand us is grossly offensive to me. Please take your time and learn the beliefs of someone before you start telling people what their beliefs mean.

[edit on 8/14/2005 by Cug]

Again Cug, I was refereing to a mentality not any specific group.

There is the version of 'do what thou will' that I brought up, practiced by more than a few.

Glad to read you're not one of them but don't try to tell us no one takes it to it's darkest interpretation just as happens in Christianity, Islam and any other 'faiths,' individuals, and groups of individuals, can do horrible things under 'their own interpretations'.

Sorry if you took offence but my sensativity is more alligned with those to hurt, frightened and weak to get a sympathetic hearing. I want them to know they are believed and supported by more than a rare few.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
That website is the biggest load of crap I've seen in a long time. It doesn't even have to do with Freemasonry, except for unclearly associating with the government and what not (which is absurd, it's documented FACT that Freemasonry does not involve itself with government), and doesn't provide ANY kind of evidence whatsoever.

You have got to be the most gullible person I have ever come across. Use your head for once, damn.

[edit on 12-8-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by sebatwerk
That website is the biggest load of crap I've seen in a long time. It doesn't even have to do with Freemasonry, except for unclearly associating with the government and what not (which is absurd, it's documented FACT that Freemasonry does not involve itself with government), and doesn't provide ANY kind of evidence whatsoever.

You have got to be the most gullible person I have ever come across. Use your head for once, damn.

[edit on 12-8-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by sebatwerk
That website is the biggest load of crap I've seen in a long time. It doesn't even have to do with Freemasonry, except for unclearly associating with the government and what not (which is absurd, it's documented FACT that Freemasonry does not involve itself with government), and doesn't provide ANY kind of evidence whatsoever.

You have got to be the most gullible person I have ever come across. Use your head for once, damn.

[edit on 12-8-2005 by sebatwerk]

Hi smallpeeps

Originally posted by smallpeeps
You cannot be serious.

Quite serious. What makes you think I'm not?

You are saying that Masons only join ONCE they are powerful?

No, not at all. What I am saying is that the acquisition of power and money happens independently of freemasonry. Some join once they are powerful (whatever you mean by "powerful") other join earlier in their lives. Whilst freemasonry can act as a force for good in these lives it cannot, by itself, create power.

Masons have big time graft and pull with each other and they CREATE careers for their people.

That is completely untrue.

In times of trouble they will cover for each other and they will keep intimate secrets of their brethren...

Absolutely. And I hope you would do that for your friends too.

...above law.

Absolutely not. Freemasons promise not to break the law. This is the actual quote from my jurisdiction's ceremony:

"that my breast shall be the sacred repository of his secrets when entrusted to my care - murder, treason, felony, and all other offences contrary to the laws of God and the ordinances of the realm being at all times most especially excepted."

To suggest otherwise is entirely disingenuous

Of course, you'll respond with some verbage about how I'm just saying this and where is my proof, but I count some Masons among my friends and the truth is known to me, at least in this regard.

The Truth as you understand it smallpeeps

>

I am all for transparency in society. Transparent money, in particular. It's cute to see Masons say "I guess you don't believe in privacy" when they practically run our country. No, I do not grant the Mason his right to privacy above the right of unheard and unacknowledged children who are crushed and tossed aside by the powerful people (some who are or may be Masons) in this world. The person who sets themselves up in power also accepts the responsibility of protecting the innocent. When the innocent are not protected, those in power will be pulled down, eventually.

It's so easy, isn't it, to post unsubstantiated hypotheses and theories about masonic involvement in society and crime without any evidence, even circumstantial, to back it up. Quite frankly, smallpeeps, there's nothing to defend.

a lot of what was wrote suzy was over the top, but all true!! of course freemasons are going to object to it. i come from a town in england called bournemouth, which is in the county of dorset. dorset is called the dregs of freemasonry. when you join the police force in bournemouth youre are automatically invited into the masons. our chief constable is a woman called jane stitchbury. not her real name, she uses her maiden name, as her husband a high up london police officer and freemason got her the job. our assistant chief constable is a freemason. the head of our social services is a freemason. the head of our local council is a freemason, all open fact. there was an excellent site hosted by masons who became antimasons called VOMIT victims of masonic ill treatment you can still find their old posts. im am totally antimason and do not understand why anyone needs secrets unless to hide things. silly handshakes, silly rituals wtf are they about? i feel sorry for them and believe they are all totally insecure so seek a club to hide in and feel part of something, sad

One thing I've noticed, when talking about Masons, is this.
Someone can bring up something about Masons, which may be bad for them, rather conspiracy wise, or just an ugly rumor, which discredits them, and what happens?
Any and all Masons around smell it, and come running, immediately saying "Oh that didnt happen" "We're not bad, we're good!" "theres no secrets, keep walking"

Please.
Every society has dark secrets, rather you like to admit it or not, and the Masons are NO exception, infact there probably lies just as many dark secrets with them, as within Bush's entire run as President, so I suggest all of these wannabe Mason's stop the b.s.

Order of DeMolay

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

The Order of DeMolay is an international youth fraternity for young men between the ages of 12 to 21. (Members who reach the age of 21 are referred to as 'Senior DeMolays.') It is modeled after Freemasonry, and serves to teach young men moral principles through a program that the young men develop. Like Freemasonry, members are initiated into the fraternity, and experience development, through several rituals and allegorical programs. Although DeMolay is not directly connected to Freemasonry, they are affiliated; Masons often support their local DeMolay chapters, either financially or by providing mentoring. DeMolay is considered part of the family of Masonic groups, which for youth also includes International Order of the Rainbow for Girls and Job's Daughters.

Can you all please explain to me why there would be a need for "fraternity initiations" for "young men" aged 12?

Is twelve the age of manhood? No.

Is it an age for structuring young boys? No.

Should a 28 year old man be thinking about initiation rituals for twelv year olds? No.

Is it fishy, from a NAMBLA perspective? Yes.

The Order was founded in 1919 in the United States of America by Frank Sherman Land and nine young men. Since then the organization has spread to 12 other countries around the world including Aruba, Australia, Bolivia, Brazil, Canada, Colombia, Germany, Italy, Japan, Panama, Philippines and Portugal. There are around 18,000 active DeMolays, and over one million members total. Senior DeMolays, Masons, or other adult mentors of the group are usually referred to by the moniker "Dad".

The organization is named after Jacques de Molay a knight and crusader from the 13th and 14th centuries. Jacques de Molay was the 23rd and last Grand Master of the Knights Templar. DeMolay members are supposed to model their conduct after his example of loyalty and fidelity.

Notable Senior DeMolay's include Bill Clinton, Walter Cronkite, John Wayne, Paul Harvey, Walt Disney, Pete Rose, Medal of Honor winner Capt. Lance P. Sijan, Hall of Fame quarterback Fran Tarkenton, John Steinbeck, John Wendell Haney, Jason Wichlacz, Aaron (Emo) Cohen, Colin Osmar, and David Rumney.

Powerful people? Yes. Child molestors? Probably not.

Nevertheless, these careers were assisted. That cannot be disputed.

Frank Sherman Land

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Frank S. Land was the founder of the Order of DeMolay.

The Order was founded in 1919, in Kansas City, Missouri. Land was a community leader who, at the age of 28, already had a successful business career as a restaurateur behind him.

The main event that lead to the founding of the DeMolay movement was World War I. This was a time when the nation was caught up with a passion and desire to bring democracy to the world. When the United States joined in the fight against German power, every resource of men and materials was poured into the war effort. America suffered not only the loss of its men who had fallen in battle, but on the homefront as well. A positive response to this critical situation came about with the development of many charitable organizations. Frank S. Land was selected to act as the director of the Masonic Relief and Employment Bureau of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry. This charity would come to help hundreds and hundreds of families.

Near the end of the war, Land became concerned with the problems of boys who had lost their fathers. He thought "how lonely it must be for a boy not to have a man to talk with, or a man to provide some type of inspiration and direction."Frank decided there was a need for an organization where boys would have the opportunity to associate with other boys, a place they could share common interests, learn responsibility and other skills that would benefit them throughout their lives. His ideal model for this organization included having business or professional men, Masons, taking interest in the young people, being a friend to them, advising them, and perhaps even providing them with employment opportunities.

That last part, for those who didn't catch it:

Masons, taking interest in the young people, being a friend to them, advising them, and perhaps even providing them with employment opportunities.

Now would someone tell me again how Masons don't create careers?



[edit on 14-8-2005 by smallpeeps]

no mason here will tell you that we've never had a bad apple...they exist everywhere but let me ask you this, do you judge the bar you go into on weather you made a friend there or weather some drunk guy made a snotty comment to you?

i find it strange that masons, never that i have seen at least, post anti-anti-mason threads. it's always the anti's comming after us. we are only trying to show you and teach you that a rumor is false. or what you read may be inaccurate.

it's the people who read something and say this is the way it is, and a mason who says' actually no, and then the anti comes back and say's yes it is....i mean COME ON. i think WE would know since we ARE masons. but then "we're probably lieing then too," Right TROLLS?

I'm sorry but I have to let out my 2 cents. I respect the author of this thread, but in this case this thread is useless.Ssaying that the masons are involved with Child Abuse is like saying. "All Doctors, or Computer Programmers are pedophiles."

There are millions of masons around the world and they are people just like me and you. You are basically stating that a mason is not human. There are so many masons that of course some of them might be sick people. The sheer number of them is overwhelming.

So your assumption is wrong. People are people. Being masonic doesn't mean anything different. If someone is going to commit a crime. It doesn't matter what interests, hobbies, job they have. They will commit their crime.


All Doctors commit murder, All Plumbers are rapists, All Interier decoraters steal.... This makes just as much sense as your thread!

Originally posted by satellitewizard1
. im am totally antimason and do not understand why anyone needs secrets unless to hide things.

And by announcing this, you've simply shown that you've no interest at all in even considering another opinion. Denying ignorance isn't about keeping a closed mind.

silly handshakes, silly rituals wtf are they about? i feel sorry for them and believe they are all totally insecure so seek a club to hide in and feel part of something, sad

May I respectfully ask if you've ever even looked at the society itself? Do you have any inkling as to the history therein?

I'm a Brit, too. And I can say, without hesitation, that your post appears to be just an example of "Using one or two facts to come up with a completely illogical conclusion".

So Bournemouth is a town of Freemasons? I think you'll also find that most officials in Bournemouth would identify themselves as Christian, too. Some will even consider themselves members of other groups; how about those Churchgoers who are also members of the housing authority? Are they all conspiring to give preferential treatment to their fellow Churchgoers?

Oh! That there's a Christian conspiracy at work!

Do you see the fatal flaw in your logic here?

At all?

I think I've given up on this thread. I've tried to use both factual evidence (which nobody has managed to rebuke other than playing a game of "oh no it isn't...because the sources are all part of The Conspiracy!" and the like), a wealth of personal experience which apparently doesn't count for much, and yet the same unproven allegations are being bandied around.

Without any evidence.

Why?

Originally posted by satellitewizard1
im am totally antimason and do not understand why anyone needs secrets unless to hide things. silly handshakes, silly rituals wtf are they about? i feel sorry for them and believe they are all totally insecure so seek a club to hide in and feel part of something, sad

I feel sorry for you, being so ignorant as to condemn a group of people that you obviously don't understand. All the information you could want regarding Freemasonry is out there on the internet and in libraries. I suggest you do some research and understand what Freemasonry is before you start running your mouth and making yourself look even more ignorant.

Originally posted by Selective_ID
Any and all Masons around smell it, and come running, immediately saying "Oh that didnt happen" "We're not bad, we're good!" "theres no secrets, keep walking"

Please.
Every society has dark secrets, rather you like to admit it or not, and the Masons are NO exception, infact there probably lies just as many dark secrets with them, as within Bush's entire run as President, so I suggest all of these wannabe Mason's stop the b.s.

And I suggest that you stop typing and actually READ what's been said before you comment on it. No mason has ever said what you claim above. BUT when someone does state obviously FALSE information about Freemasonry, we do rush to correct them. That is no secret, we're tired of people posting false information regarding Freemasonry, and trying to pass it off as known FACT.

As for the rest, well, maybe you're the wanna be?

Originally posted by intrepid
OK, seems that people aren't getting it. Warns to follow. If you can't discuss the topic and can only snipe at one another, get ready for the red flags. I'm done.

Intrepid,

Since you and some of the other Mods don't like me posting pictures of 'em anymore (and I've tried to restrain myself from it lately) I was just curious. Do you think along the same lines as the "warn" flags that are divied out sometimes, you might design some "Fruitcake" flags?

This thread would certainly be a good place to "try 'em out"

Originally posted by senrak

Originally posted by intrepid
OK, seems that people aren't getting it. Warns to follow. If you can't discuss the topic and can only snipe at one another, get ready for the red flags. I'm done.

Intrepid,

Since you and some of the other Mods don't like me posting pictures of 'em anymore (and I've tried to restrain myself from it lately) I was just curious. Do you think along the same lines as the "warn" flags that are divied out sometimes, you might design some "Fruitcake" flags?

This thread would certainly be a good place to "try 'em out"

Intrepid, WHY are THEY still allowed to throw personal insults? I have a very strong opinion as to why but I'll keep that to myself.