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American bases in Europe and the war on terror

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cjf

posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 03:35 PM
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Originally posted by Simon666
They were already allowed an army again back in 1955 and are perfectly capable of defending themselves


Allowed is correct, with very specific limitations...... And just why is that?


Originally posted by Simon666
The Soviet threat is gone and the only reason why Germany still tolerates them is that it doesn't want to upset America by asking them to leave and because of the employment the bases create, so the government would look unpopular if suddenly a lot of people in a specific area went unemployed


Yet you say….


Originally posted by Simon666
However, the benefit of the US bases to the greater German economy is virtually nihil


Followed by:


Originally posted by Simon666
Again, I already mentioned that in my previous post and you seem to think that somehow entire Germany benefits significantly economically from the US bases. This is not true but for the communities around those bases.


Which is it???? Are you serious?? You do not see the benefit to the entire economy of Germany??? What of the engineering contracts, construction contracts, adopted charities, base leases, employemnt gaurantees on and on and on.......which are given first priority to the host country?

Obviously you have not read the RAND report specifying exactly the monetary increases and contributions to the GDP and GNP are produced for each 10K US soldiers stationed inside a ‘host’ country? Nor have you paid attention to the volumes complaints from host countries which oppose base closures because of economic impact, (even hiring lobbyist to oppose!) especially concerning US bases inside Germany.


Originally posted by Simon666
Plus the US troops are yet to have incidents like in Japan where they raped a 12 year old schoolgirl and nearly got away with it, drive two schoolgirls to death in South Korea and got away with it or killed over a dozen tourists in Italy wanting to stunt fly and got away with it.


You mention incidents about individuals which have occurred by a machine that employs millions, upon millions of people.

Example reply to one of one of you simple conclusions:



SOFA personnel comprise approximately 3.9 percent of the populating and committed about 1.7 percent of crimes (average, 1972-2001), or about half as much crime compared to the entire population of Okinawa. In the past ten years of data (1992-2001) SOFA personnel committed only 0.82 percent of crimes in Okinawa, or nearly five times less than the general population. (The Number of, 2001)…..

….Japanese, NGO members, or anyone else who continues to insist that, “There seems to be no end to crimes against Okinawans,” are not obviously not aware of the facts, or are purposely dissemination misleading information in order to further other ends likely related to the removal of USFJ from Okinawa and Japan.
Article Link (emph added)


c'mon? Seriously....


.




posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 03:49 PM
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Originally posted by ludo182
Hi everybody,

Do you think that the American bases in Europe are still of any use? Does anyone find this acceptable that the US has still bases in allied coutries such as Germany, Italy....

i'm French and i'm quite outraged. What would the American people think of French or German military bases on its soil?

Europe and the US must treat each other as equals. We, Europeans, have not to accept every single American will.


De Gaulle in the 60s kicked the American army out of France and so should Europe.


As a surrender monkey, you have no right to be outraged at the US. Just thank us you aren't speaking German.

Would you like some cheese with your whine?



posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 04:43 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Excuse me, but if the local communities are effected, is not the economy of Germany effected overall? We are talking billions here, simon666, not mere millions.

Actually, we're talking trillions when it concerns the German GDP.



Originally posted by Seekerof
If the locally employed Germans become unemployed, does that not reflect itself in the overall unemployment numbers of Germany?

Ofcourse, but with 10% already unemployed, an extra 0,1% or so would make little difference although it would be highly publicized in the press as each time whenever entire communities suddenly get affected by something like a major company closing or in casu a base closing. A lot of negative press attention is not what politicians want.



Originally posted by Seekerof
Being your not from Germany, nor a citizen of Germany, are you speaking for the Germans who will undoubtedly be effected with any type legit justification?

Ofcourse I'm not, but I'm giving my opinion as a person living in a democracy. You're giving you're opinion as well and since you're not from Germany either, nor a citizen of Germany, you should not use that as a basis to appear more authorative somehow.



Originally posted by Seekerof
Correct me if I am wrong here. The German article provided shows and indicates that Germany, overall, will indeed be effected. Any German economist to say or indicate otherwise?

The sensationalized title and first line say so. I do not feel it would have ANY impact on the wider German economy, due to scale effects already mentioned, although each time when thousands of people's jobs are affected it is a very unpleasant thing that is highly publicized and gets national press coverage as something bad. In that sense it would hit Germany on a wider scale than the local communities.



Originally posted by cjf
Which is it????

You're trying to look for contradiction where there are none, because you don't like my tone nor my message. Allow me to give an example: airlines laying off thousands of people do affect people and gets lots of publicity. Yet, on the wider US economy and unemployment figures, the impact is virtually zero. Yet somehow, despite all free market rethoric, airline companies have been able to count on generous government handouts. Why? Because politicians know that, even though on a countrywide scale the impact would be very small, the negative publicity and political fallout of entire communities in certain areas and thousands of people losing their job, would be immense. It would be perceived as a hard hit on the US.



Originally posted by cjf
You mention incidents about individuals which have occurred by a machine that employs millions, upon millions of people.

You're counting out the emotional factor. Such incidents do upset people, whether they're representative on the behaviour of US troops in general or not (for clarity: the latter).



Originally posted by cjf
Example reply to one of one of you simple conclusions:

That article merely gives the level of crimes. It may very well be, but it doesn't mention whether the guilty parties were also punished properly or were protected simply because of their nationality from the punishment they deserved. Even if crime levels are low, crime will be considered a major problem by the people if they - right or wrong - get the impression the criminals get away with it. Those were some very heinous examples I gave of which it is very natural for people to get very upset. If French or other troops committed the same acts in your country and got sometimes acquitted, I think all hell might break loose.

[edit on 13-8-2005 by Simon666]



posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 04:50 PM
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Your right Friday2112 perhaps it's time the troops went home for rest after supporting some of these nations whos' respect for the US and its commitment to France and Germany seems lackluster at best.

Someday the heat will be on again and perhap's we'll be around to witness the response from the United States of America.

Dallas


cjf

posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 05:50 PM
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Originally posted by Simon666

Originally posted by cjf
Example reply to one of one of you simple conclusions:

That article merely gives the level of crimes.


As well as links to further articles (which have more links and why I posted this particular article) which follow the story to completion, such as in this one….




March 7, 1996
Web posted at: 12:45 a.m. EST (0545 GMT)
NAHA, Okinawa (CNN) -- Three U.S. servicemen were convicted Thursday in the kidnapping and rape of a 12-year-old Okinawa girl and sentenced to up to seven years in a Japanese prison.

The verdict handed down by a panel of three judges -- Japan does not have a jury system -- followed months of protests against the U.S. military presence in Okinawa. In the aftermath of the crime, support for American troops in Japan has reached one of its lowest points since World War II.


Convicted…by a Japanese court in the region where the crime was committed.


Originally posted by Simon666
Even if crime levels are low, crime will be considered a major problem by the people if they - right or wrong - get the impression the criminals get away with it.


Point is moot to this topic.


Originally posted by Simon666
. If French or other troops committed the same acts in your country and got sometimes acquitted, I think all hell might break loose.


French troops have done far, far, far worse and where does not matter! To your point, crime is crime. I have posted a few examples in this thread and there are plenty (more than plenty) to find on your own.

And no, French troops are not answering for their crimes like the US soldiers do nor is the French government answering for its historical and recent crimes against humanity.


Originally posted by Simon666
However, the benefit of the US bases to the greater German economy is virtually nihil


My reply was to the ‘meat’ of the above mentioned statement. Not to the tone or perceived message. But comparing apples to oranges in the latter example does nothing to clarify and there is contridiction and oversight.


cjf

posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by Simon666
However, the benefit of the US bases to the greater German economy is virtually nihil


To help complete the thought, there are intangibles that stimulate and foster economic growth other than just jobs and cash injections...but the host country benefits immensely from US troop deployemnts:



The presence of U.S. troops boosts economic growth in host countries. There is a positive unconditional relationship between troop deployments and growth, based on data from 94 countries, and there is also a positive conditional relationship that factors in other explanatory variables like war, political stability, and initial gross domestic product (GDP) levels. For
example, a deployment of 500,000 U.S. troops to a host country spread over five decades (10,000 per year) is associated with an increase of 1 percent annual GDP growth per capita…….

……Our models indicate that duration of U.S. troop deployments matters more for long-run economic growth than overall force strength. That is, in terms of economic growth, there are diminishing returns for every additional soldier deployed to a foreign country. In addition, the growth benefit of U.S. troop deployments grows stronger over time.
Link



posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by Dallas


Your right Friday2112 perhaps it's time the troops went home for rest after supporting some of these nations whos' respect for the US and its commitment to France and Germany seems lackluster at best.

Someday the heat will be on again and perhap's we'll be around to witness the response from the United States of America.

Dallas



i have a lot of respect for th US which has given us our freedom back. But that doesn't mean that we have to shut up when the US is acting crazy. You see power only as economic and military power but there is other aspects of power that the US doesn't know : culture.

When the US will be even more hated by the world that it is nowadays, then perhaps you'll be pleased that Europe tries to defend you and tell the world about your good aspects, your great democracy...

[edit on 13-8-2005 by ludo182]



posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 07:08 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Excuse me, but if the local communities are effected, is not the economy of Germany effected overall? We are talking billions here, simon666, not mere millions.

If the locally employed Germans become unemployed, does that not reflect itself in the overall unemployment numbers of Germany?

Being your not from Germany, nor a citizen of Germany, are you speaking for the Germans who will undoubtedly be effected with any type legit justification? Correct me if I am wrong here. The German article provided shows and indicates that Germany, overall, will indeed be effected. Any German economist to say or indicate otherwise?




seekerof

[edit on 13-8-2005 by Seekerof]


Seekerof how much money u get paid u slave driving facist???



posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 07:19 PM
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Originally posted by motionknight
Seekerof how much money u get paid u slave driving facist???


Not enough?

Thank you for your contribution to this topic and to ATS.






seekerof



posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 07:32 PM
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Originally posted by ludo182

i'm French and i'm quite outraged. What would the American people think of French or German military bases on its soil?



Apparently you don't know to much about the United States Military. There are several bases in America that are occupied by foreign military. Just an example, Holloman AFB in New Mexico has over 300 German Luftwaffe and 12 fighter aircraft stationed there, and that’s along side our F117 squadrons. Plus every year almost all of our allies participate several times a year in air combat training at Nellis AFB, Nevada, even your French Air Force participate, they're the ones running around in military shorts and some gay ass shirt because it's so hot in the desert, it's called RED Flag. So we pretty much accommodate outside military all year long, every year at various places. I know there's not as much here as we have in other countries, but we don't cry for help like everyone else. I know this all to be true, because I spent 21 years in the US Air Force and 8 of those years were in Germany, which by the way, they are also on those same military bases that we occupy. As far as the spying...well that's for your on protection, and we're not the only country that does it and it is done along side our fellow countrymen. Remember we Americans will die for our country and it's causes, even if it's to protect and save your foreign ass.



posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 07:34 PM
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and I don't know to much about quote boxes, sorry



posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 07:39 PM
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Originally posted by American Mad Man

As a surrender monkey, you have no right to be outraged at the US. Just thank us you aren't speaking German.

Would you like some cheese with your whine?


Thank who??!

Have you ever read any history? Does 2 years of standing alone against Hitler while you sat on your arses and weighed up the cost mean anything to you?.

You didn't join the war until you were attacked - you never declared war on Hitler - he, at least, had some honour and honoured his Axis pact with the Japanese - he declared war on you!

But for us you'd have faced trans-atlantic V2+ rocket bombardment and the prospect invading Europe from across the ocean!

We're grateful for your support - you could at least recognise what we did too!



posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 07:45 PM
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Originally posted by CTID56092

Originally posted by American Mad Man

As a surrender monkey, you have no right to be outraged at the US. Just thank us you aren't speaking German.

Would you like some cheese with your whine?


Thank who??!

Have you ever read any history? Does 2 years of standing alone against Hitler while you sat on your arses and weighed up the cost mean anything to you?.

You didn't join the war until you were attacked - you never declared war on Hitler - he, at least, had some honour and honoured his Axis pact with the Japanese - he declared war on you!

But for us you'd have faced trans-atlantic V2+ rocket bombardment and the prospect invading Europe from across the ocean!

We're grateful for your support - you could at least recognise what we did too!


The only reason Europe lasted untill we got involved is because of our industrial support.

Thats all you need to know. We got involved when it was suitable for us - something the French know all about (see payoffs by Saddam).

Sorry, Europe owes their freedom to the US. We owe NOTHING to them.



posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 07:57 PM
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Who are you trying to insult - us or the French?, they're two different countries you know.

We gave you - the PT boat design, the landing craft, the Merlin engine, code-breaking, access to the world's first electronic computer, the 76mm gun for the firefly sherman, our nuke knowledge and supplies etc etc.

Do some research - ask your Mom to take you to a libarary (big building with lots of books) you might learn something.

I knew your education system was bad but that is astounding ignorance.



posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 08:02 PM
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Yep that's right the defeat of the axis had nothing to do with the efforts of countries like the UK and Russia, if anything they were a hinderance to American chest beating. Plus the US didn't have to get involved because the world would be safer for them with Germany/Italy conquering all of Europe and Africa and the Japanese conquering Asia and bombing Pearl Harbor on a weekly basis. Certainly the fact that Japan attacked America was no reason for them to get involved, but rather they felt a great need to fight an injustice and that's why they only entered the war after they were attacked


[edit on 13-8-2005 by Sabre262]



posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 08:13 PM
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America couldn't even declare war on Germany. Hitler honoured the terms of the axis apact and declared war on it's co-belligerent's enemy. US had 3 days post Pearl Harbor to do the right thing but they didn't bother.

Sad when Hitler is the only one to come out of those few days with some credibilty (he was avery, very strange man - all through the war he had a picture of a UK casualty station in Ypres WW1 on his wall!)



posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 08:14 PM
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Really didn't mean to upset anybody, I know it took everyone’s effort to win those wars. What I was commenting on was the fact the original poster asked how we would feel if foreign military was on our soil. Well, they are and that's all I really wanted to say about that comment, but hey the next time your country gets invaded let us know, we like to have reasons to test out our new weapons. Again I'm sorry if I offened anyone or their great country.



posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 08:28 PM
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Originally posted by CTID56092
Who are you trying to insult - us or the French?, they're two different countries you know.

We gave you - the PT boat design, the landing craft, the Merlin engine, code-breaking, access to the world's first electronic computer, the 76mm gun for the firefly sherman, our nuke knowledge and supplies etc etc.

Do some research - ask your Mom to take you to a libarary (big building with lots of books) you might learn something.

I knew your education system was bad but that is astounding ignorance.



LOL!

No insults here, just pure reality. All of Europe would have fallen to Hitler if not for our industrial support. There is no denying it. There is no debating it.

Oh yeah, sorry to inform you that I am in a decent school. Wharton School of Business. Look that up in YOUR library.



posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 08:37 PM
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Originally posted by American Mad Man

Oh yeah, sorry to inform you that I am in a decent school. Wharton School of Business. Look that up in YOUR library.




You should have said!

If I'd known you were still at school I'd have realised you're, obviously, completely right in everything you say.

By 1941 we were just thinking about the possibility of a wheel - thank God for the US bringing us enlightenment, and electric light!

The ignorance & certainty of youth! Bless.



posted on Aug, 14 2005 @ 12:56 AM
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Originally posted by American Mad Man

Originally posted by CTID56092
Who are you trying to insult - us or the French?, they're two different countries you know.

We gave you - the PT boat design, the landing craft, the Merlin engine, code-breaking, access to the world's first electronic computer, the 76mm gun for the firefly sherman, our nuke knowledge and supplies etc etc.

Do some research - ask your Mom to take you to a libarary (big building with lots of books) you might learn something.

I knew your education system was bad but that is astounding ignorance.



LOL!

No insults here, just pure reality. All of Europe would have fallen to Hitler if not for our industrial support. There is no denying it. There is no debating it.

Oh yeah, sorry to inform you that I am in a decent school. Wharton School of Business. Look that up in YOUR library.



what's the use of being the only superpower when 3/4 of the planet hates you because you spread violence?



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