Originally posted by Tinkleflower
But, unlike many here, I'm not prepared to jump into either of the "it was ALL the government's doing" or the "it was Al Qaeda from start to finish" pools at this point. I'm still questioning, and I'm still not ready to believe it was either fully orchestrated by the US government, or fully orchestrated solely by Al Qaeda.

The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle; I'm just yet to see enough proof in either direction.

I agree that the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle, the point is, with all the lazers, mininukes and boxcutters flying around, you can't even take a wild guess at where that middle is.

And I think your point of view about those that belief in a cover up is just wrong. For most of them it is obvious the US government atleast helped out, all the evidence points towards it. So why go into details if you can only refute one or two? They just dissolve into the cesspool that is 9/11. You don't need to narrow your search down to details if you want to be convinced, you need to take a step back and look at the whole picture.

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace
Come on TF, the only one you're fooling with that statement is yourself. Every post of yours is questioning the theories and evidences put forth by those who doubt the official story. Never do you appear to question the "facts" presented by those who have swallowed the government's version of the events. No malice in my words here, just an honest observation based on what I've seen.

Your perception might well be perfectly accurate. It's just unfortunate that there aren't many threads (it seems) which do focus on those areas where I don't buy the "official" line.

I question the validity of the demolition accusations, and I'm quite at fault there because I don't have the required expertise in demolitions and/or physics; what I've read and studied though supports the official explanation more than it supports any other theory. I'm left with following the "official" version because no alternative has ever been shown to be more likely than the official version. That's why I keep questioning; and that's why the same questions are often repeated.

I've always questioned the validity of the accusation that Al Qaeda were solely responsible; perhaps I haven't managed to contribute to any threads which address this, and if I haven't, it's probably because none have actually caught my attention. The majority of threads relating to the 9/11 issues revolve around the WTC collapse and/or the Pentagon, and don't relate much (if at all) to the financial, logistical or political manipulation therein - and these are the areas in which I truly do think the real deceptions lie.

So there's no fooling going on. Just a lack of proof (in my perception) in some areas, and a lack of threads and posts relating to the "official lines" which I do question. Perhaps this is where I actually try and formulate the questions I do have and make a new thread relating to those logistic, political and financial areas?

what kind of "evidence" will you accept ?

regarding the shot down plane

logic tells me

that a large debis field is evidence that it was shot down

I don't need a dork with a badge telling me what to think



even tho rumsfeld spilled the beans a while back [ confirming suspicions ] but he never admitted it

I'm sure someone here remembers whether or not is was a news-conference or was an impromtu comment...

Originally posted by Tinkleflower
Perhaps this is where I actually try and formulate the questions I do have and make a new thread relating to those logistic, political and financial areas?

I think that would be a great idea. The problem with that angle is that it generally dissolves into conjecture and "connecting the dots", e.g. "FEMA was in NYC on 9-10, they must have been there to coordinate the attacks", or "the CIA met with OBL in a hospital in Pakistan 10 days before 9-11, they must have been finalizing the cover story". Even if FEMA was there to coordinate the "attacks", there will never be a damning document found called "Operation Babel Towers" to prove so, nor Giuliani coming out and admitting it. Heck, even Silverstein admitting on tape that WTC7 was demolished is denied by the Roarks of the world.

At least with the collapses themselves, especially of WTC7, we can take cold, unalterable physics, video & photographic evidence, and witnesses who were actually there, and apply them to show that the government story is utter bogus, and that being the case, only then can we start to move into conjecture and guess as to how they would have actually carried it out and who was behind it.

Hope I gave you a little insight into why the collapses of WTC1, 2 & 7, and perhaps the Pentagon plane question, are so crucial to many of us in terms of debunking the government's story. Again, no malice intended and my respect to you for maintaining a civil discourse - a feat which many of us fail to carry out.

[edit on 2005-9-5 by wecomeinpeace]

guys like me and others have such a hard time

pointing out the problems we "see"

the following, rings true to my core ;

[ Our enemy, the state

Behind the first two veils we find the great majority of people on the planet. They are tools of the state: Second veilers are the gullible voters whose ignorance justify the actions of politicians who send first veilers off to die in foreign lands as cannon fodder -- their combined stations in life are to believe that the self-serving machinations of the power-elite are matters of national security worth dying for.

Third, fourth, fifth and sixth veilers are of increasing liability to the state because of their decreasing ability to be used as tools to consolidate power and wealth of the many into the hands of the power-elite. It is common for these people to sacrifice more of their relationships with friends and family, their professional careers and personal freedom with each veil they pierce.

Albert Jay Nock (1870-1945), author of “Our Enemy, the State” (1935), explained what happens to those who find the seventh and eighth veils: “What was the best that the state could find to do with an actual Socrates and an actual Jesus when it had them? Merely to poison one and crucify the other, for no reason but that they were too intolerably embarrassing to be allowed to live any longer.” ]




I'll post more later

My magical list
-----------------------------------
1 The one's that crashed in to the twin towers flunk their flight classes
2 We got the instructors sayng they flunked (so we can be reasured)
3 President bush giving presidetial directive order stoping fbi agents from investigateing before 911.
4 The bin laden and the bushes are friends and long time parteners.
5 Before 911 troops where massed on the border of afganistan before 911.
6 There is a feema guy saing they aravied a day before the atack for 911.
7 Bush insisting that he saw the first plain crash he didint say it once but twice.
8 Aeroplains going magicly off the radar of faa for a hour and magicly reapear before crashing at the pentagon twin towers.
9 hijackers after crashing in to the targets are happy, well and alive.
10 look in the patriot act , there is a milion things that dont make sence like the words NWO.
-------------------------------------------------
End of magical list.

I will come with other 10 magical qestions for now answer them(all of them)
If you behaive nice i will give you a cooky.









[edit on 15-11-2005 by pepsi78]

Ok, Terminator...

Since your theory is so cut and dry, please explain to me how some of these hijackers are still alive. Oh, and what about the war games on 9/11...I made a thread on that and no one would respond.

How about the joint chiefs of staff having a 9/11 meeting cancelled on 9/10?

How about bldg 7 falling, just like the twins, WITHOUT an airplane impact?

Or, explain how Bin Laden, the mastermind of a mass murder, is no longer being pursued by our govt. But, the BTK killer is convicted and sentenced 25 years after he did his dirt...

Originally posted by toasted
I'm sure someone here remembers whether or not is was a news-conference or was an impromtu comment...

It was an interview aired on CNN on December 24, 2004.

Rumsfeld said,

And I think all of us have a sense if we imagine the kind of world we would face if the people who bombed the mess hall in Mosul, or the people who did the bombing in Spain, or the people who attacked the United States in New York, shot down the plane over Pennsylvania and attacked the Pentagon...

He went on to reference the beheading of Nick Berg that oddly exhibited no blood dripping from Berg's head, who was allegedly still alive during the beheading. Just doing a bout of fear-mongering, and slipped up and said the wrong thing.

Silly, senile old men.

truthseeka some people will see only what they want to see.
There are some few felows here that will ignore everything.
In fact they join to denny all.
Some of them will stick in only one category and you will see them defending that point till they die you wont see them on other parts of the forum.
And some will just not aswer you and will answer on only what they like.

[edit on 15-11-2005 by pepsi78]

pepsi .. those of which you speaketh of would be called 'Shills' & 'Cowards'

thanks

and YOU HOPE it was an INNOCENT, senile slip, and nothing more....









for hope is all we got...