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Mind Explaining These Things To Me?

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posted on Aug, 28 2005 @ 03:02 PM
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Originally posted by Shroomery

Again, there were SIGNS of a mild, moderate, cool, dying, fire.
There were NO signs of a fire that was either raging, hot, or any of those things.

I'm not sayig it isn't possible to reach that heat, but all signs show it didn't on 9/11.

But don't take MY word for it, you're now discussing facts with head of FEMA.
So if you don't believe him, why do you believe the rest of his report ?










What appears to be molten aluminum (probably from the airplane fuselage) pouring out of the building.

Looks kind of hot to me.




posted on Aug, 28 2005 @ 03:07 PM
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Only problem is Howard, that these arn't the testimonies from firefighters that he'll want to hear. He only want's to hear the ones that back up his claims, you know - those fictional ones that only exist in some people's heads?

You know as well as I do that any eye-witness testimonies that back-up any official stories must be false.



posted on Aug, 28 2005 @ 03:14 PM
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The melting point of Aluminium is 660.32 deg C, so that's the minimum temperature of the fire.
www.webelements.com...

And I went into more detail regarding the performance of steel in fires in the thread here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

But basically:


Structural steel exposed to temperatures above 1200 degrees F (649 deg C) will develop a coarse, eroded surface markedly different from the appearance produced by mill rolling, Dill (1960).




posted on Aug, 28 2005 @ 03:16 PM
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Originally posted by HowardRoark

What appears to be molten aluminum (probably from the airplane fuselage) pouring out of the building.

Looks kind of hot to me.


Just goes to confirm that the temperatures stayed around 600 degrees Celsius. That's around the temperature aluminum melts (660), and yet it wasn't hot enough to make any of the steel glow (which would've been around 700 or 800'ish). That puts it right around a sustained 600 degrees or so, dead-on. You'll find that that incident of melted aluminum was one-of-a-kind, despite all the aluminum hanging off the steel columns, etc.

[edit on 28-8-2005 by bsbray11]



posted on Aug, 28 2005 @ 03:23 PM
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www.thememoryhole.org...
www.rense.com...

www.wnbc.com...

^^ LOOKS LIKE GENERAL ELECTRIC FORGOT TO TELL NBC TO TAKE THIS OFF THEIR WEBSITE!!! I GUESS MAINSTREAM NEWS HAS TURNED TO CONSPIRACY THEORIES ASWELL!!

you can melt aluminum with a butane lighter o_O thats a fun experiment.. ILL GO TRY IT AND POST PICTURES!!

Mod Edit: Removed nonsense'

[edit on 28-8-2005 by UM_Gazz]



posted on Aug, 28 2005 @ 03:40 PM
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Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by HowardRoark

What appears to be molten aluminum (probably from the airplane fuselage) pouring out of the building.

Looks kind of hot to me.


Just goes to confirm that the temperatures stayed around 600 degrees Celsius. That's around the temperature aluminum melts (660), and yet it wasn't hot enough to make any of the steel glow (which would've been around 700 or 800'ish). That puts it right around a sustained 600 degrees or so, dead-on. You'll find that that incident of melted aluminum was one-of-a-kind, despite all the aluminum hanging off the steel columns, etc.

[edit on 28-8-2005 by bsbray11]


No it just means it was at least that temperature in places - colder in some areas and hotter in others, and you don't have to get the steel at molten temperature or even that close to weaken the joints and it's integrity.



posted on Aug, 28 2005 @ 03:41 PM
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Originally posted by senseless04


www.thememoryhole.org...
www.rense.com...

www.wnbc.com...

^^ LOOKS LIKE GENERAL ELECTRIC FORGOT TO TELL NBC TO TAKE THIS OFF THEIR WEBSITE!!! I GUESS MAINSTREAM NEWS HAS TURNED TO CONSPIRACY THEORIES ASWELL!!

you can melt aluminum with a butane lighter o_O thats a fun experiment.. ILL GO TRY IT AND POST PICTURES!!

Mod Edit: Removed nonsense'

[edit on 28-8-2005 by UM_Gazz]


The ALL CAPS is more than slightly childish and irritating and being able to melt aluminum with a lighter proves how hot a lighter flame is, the melting temperature of aluminium however stays the same.



posted on Aug, 28 2005 @ 03:45 PM
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Originally posted by AgentSmith
No it just means it was at least that temperature in places - colder in some areas and hotter in others, and you don't have to get the steel at molten temperature or even that close to weaken the joints and it's integrity.


Ok, so you're arguing now that the temp was "just enough" to weaken the steal "in key places" to make the towers fall..

LET THE DEBUNK BEGIN!!

semi-molten steel at or around 1500F (815C) was found 6 months after the explosion IN THE MIDDLE OF WINTER. If it was "just enough" to "weaken the steel in key places" where did this molten steel come from?

www.americanfreepress.net...

"American Free Press has learned of pools of “molten steel” found at the base of the collapsed twin towers weeks after the collapse. Although the energy source for these incredibly hot areas has yet to be explained, New York seismometers recorded huge bursts of energy, which caused unexplained seismic “spikes” at the beginning of each collapse."



posted on Aug, 28 2005 @ 03:48 PM
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Excellent, then it was really as hot as they say it is! I thought I was going to have to show how it could happen through loss of integrity alone, but you've gone and found this for me (oh and explosives don't have that effect before you get excited) Cheers for finding that and from the beloved Neo-Nazi paper that is the American Free Press too - nice!


I doubt it's true but I hope it is because it just proves the point, and with regards to the seismograph readings, that has been explained in detail, even by the very seismologists that released them!

I guess AFP might be more experienced in these matters, though it's highly unlikely..


[edit on 28-8-2005 by AgentSmith]



posted on Aug, 28 2005 @ 03:51 PM
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Originally posted by bsbray11


Just goes to confirm that the temperatures stayed around 600 degrees Celsius. That's around the temperature aluminum melts (660), and yet it wasn't hot enough to make any of the steel glow (which would've been around 700 or 800'ish). That puts it right around a sustained 600 degrees or so, dead-on.


look what happens to the strength of steel at around 600 C



even these special fire resistant steels have lost almost 2/3rds of thier strength






posted on Aug, 28 2005 @ 03:56 PM
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Originally posted by AgentSmith
Excellent, then it was really as hot as they say it is! I thought I was going to have to show how it could happen through loss of integrity alone, but you've gone and found this for me (oh and explosives don't have that effect before you get excited) Cheers for finding that and from the beloved Neo-Nazi paper that is the American Free Press too - nice!





Thermite burns at 3000C and was originally used to weld pieces of iron track together in the old days of railroad building.

The problem, that you dont see because of your arrogance is that THERE HAVE NEVER BEEN AN EXPLANTION FOR ANY OF THE PROBLEMS WITH ANY OF THE PHYSICS ON 9/11

www.americanfreepress.net...

American Free Press has learned of pools of “molten steel” found at the base of the collapsed twin towers weeks after the collapse. Although the energy source for these incredibly hot areas has yet to be explained, New York seismometers recorded huge bursts of energy, which caused unexplained seismic “spikes” at the beginning of each collapse.

you're seriously amazing.

I guess what i'm trying to say is that, jet fuel could not have created a hot spot 90 stories below 6 months later in the dead of winter. Especially since most of the jet fuel exploded in a huge fireball.

THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE

ABSOLUTELY... 100000% IMPOSSIBLE


st12.startlogic.com...


"The two decided to ascend the stairs to the C level, to a small machine shop where Vito Deleo and David Williams were supposed to be working. When the two arrived at the C level, they found the machine shop gone.

“There was nothing there but rubble, “Mike said. “We’re talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press – gone!” The two began yelling for their co-workers, but there was no answer. They saw a perfect line of smoke streaming through the air. “You could stand here,” he said, “and two inches over you couldn’t breathe. We couldn’t see through the smoke so we started screaming.” But there was still no answer."




so, a jet carrying 10,000 gallons of jet fuel of which 50% exploded in a huge fire ball made its way down the elevators to the 2nd sub basement.. and completely vaporized a 50 ton hydraulic press..


sure...


and next you'll tell me elvis was an alien..




[edit on 28-8-2005 by senseless04]



posted on Aug, 28 2005 @ 03:59 PM
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Does anyone else other than that neo-nazi paper say it though? They are always trying to make something up to further their cause, I expect they are blaming it on the Jews as usual.



posted on Aug, 28 2005 @ 04:02 PM
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Originally posted by AgentSmith
Does anyone else other than that neo-nazi paper say it though? They are always trying to make something up to further their cause, I expect they are blaming it on the Jews as usual.



out of disinformation? the truth cannot be supressed, there are too many questionable incidents.

the neo-nazi papers would be foxnews and cnn, free press is the closest thing we've got to exactly that.. free press. Most major news papers and press orginizations such as nbc are owned by DoD contractors such as general electric.

[edit on 28-8-2005 by senseless04]



posted on Aug, 28 2005 @ 04:03 PM
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Yeah, Howard, and that's going to bring a skyscraper down.


For the less educated of you, skyscrapers are built over-engineered, meaning the columns are designed to support much more than their own weight. Further, when columns lose the ability to support their portion of the weight, the load is redistributed to the other local columns.

If each and every column on the impacted floors lost even half of its strength, the building would've still stood just fine, or possibly there would've been a small local collapse as was seen in the skyscraper fire in Madrid. This is because of the over-engineering and weight redistribution features present in the WTC, as well as every single skyscraper ever built with any amount of brains behind it at all.

The columns would've likely had to lose somewhere around 80-90% of their strength to just give out like they did, and they would've also had to have given out at the exact same time for the collapse to be so vertical. The temperatures required for this sort of failure were not met at the WTC on 9/11, let alone by every single freaking column on those floors.

It's not surprising that you would make such misleading implications, Howard. A few more trips around the merry-go-round and I should be able to accurately predict your every move.


[edit on 28-8-2005 by bsbray11]



posted on Aug, 28 2005 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by senseless04
out of disinformation? the truth cannot be supressed, there are too many questionable incidents.

the neo-nazi papers would be foxnews and cnn, free press is the closest thing we've got to exactly that.. free press. Most major news papers and press orginizations such as nbc are owned by DoD contractors such as general electric.

[edit on 28-8-2005 by senseless04]


I'll educate you like I had to with someone else, here's a little history about your precious 'free paper':


The American Free Press is a weekly newspaper in the United States. It was founded in 2001 by Willis Carto as the successor to The Spotlight, which ceased publication in 2001 when its parent company, Liberty Lobby, was forced into bankruptcy.

Like The Spotlight, American Free Press proclaims a populist political orientation and runs opinionated articles and editorials aimed at a mainstream audience across the political spectrum, but critics charge that it is a subtle recruiting tool for anti-Semitism and the political extreme right-wing.en.wikipedia.org...



Willis Allison Carto (born 1926) is a longtime figure on the political far right-wing in the United States...
...In 1955, he founded the organization called Liberty Lobby, which remained in operation under the control of Willis Carto until 2001, when the organization was forced into bankruptcy as a result of a lawsuit. Liberty Lobby was perhaps best known for publishing the newspaper, The Spotlight, between 1975 and 2001, which is also now defunct. Willis Carto and other people who were involved with The Spotlight have since started a new newspaper, called the American Free Press, which is similar in tone.
en.wikipedia.org...


You and others should be more careful about what they valiantly defend and associate themselves with, I suggest doing research in advance.

And with regards to the fire, it's interesting that you state they would have to lose 80 - 90% of their strength, as

"Steel loses about 50 percent of its strength at 1100°F (593 deg C)," notes senior engineer Farid Alfawak-hiri of the American Institute of Steel Construction. "And at 1800° (982 deg C) it is probably at less than 10 percent."
www.popularmechanics.com...


Lets look at one of the heat maps of the WTC:



Up in the 900's in some places there.

And going back to the molton pools and the thermite theories, Thermite is a mixture of aluminium and iron oxide (rust), so as the facia of the building and the aircraft were aluminum and the steel is primarily made from iron, could the combination have somehow caused the effect?

The seismic activty has been shown to be false, most conspiracy sites only show the graph which shows the events over a 30 minute period, the relatively short (About 10 second each) periods of the buildings collapsing is exaggerated on that graph. They usually omit this one which is over 40 seconds:


www.popularmechanics.com...

Doesn't look so mysterious now does it?

And as has already been pointed out on numerous occasions in other threads, even in the last day or too, the 'weight' of the hydraulic press (50 tonnes) relates to the pressure it can exert. And they didn't say it was vapourised, any explosive that 'vapourised' it would be truely fantastic and the building would have collapsed there and then, they said it had 'disappeared'. It was more than likely through a wall or under rubble.


[edit on 28-8-2005 by AgentSmith]

[edit on 28-8-2005 by AgentSmith]



posted on Aug, 28 2005 @ 04:33 PM
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Originally posted by AgentSmith

Up in the 900's in some places there.

And going back to the molton pools and the thermite theories, Thermite is a mixture of aluminium and iron oxide (rust), so as the facia of the building and the aircraft were aluminum and the steel is primarily made from iron, could the combination have somehow caused the effect?



no because the majority of the aircraft wasnt made of aluminum. the nose piece especially, was comprised of carbon. 3552C melting point, although it is very fragile and can be cracked easily. I'm not suprised that i havent seen any nose cone pieces.

The steel was also coated with a fire retardant. the thing is, you cant just take a piece of aluminum put it next to some iron oxide light a match and expect it to burn. It must be a VERY fine powder. The ratio is 3/1 iron oxide to aluminum ratio, meaning there would have to be 3 parts iron oxide for every 1 part aluminum for the most effective combination. Suggesting that the plane was some how pulverized into dust then mixed with iron oxide that came from the steel beams, or wherever you're suggesting it came from is unfounded.

The only way that it could blown into a fine enough powder to create thermite would be by a grinder, or by high explosives.

Well, you made the jump from "official story" to "speculative thinking" about how the molten steel was at the bottom of the tower. Almost there!

AFP Stuff:

I thought neo-nazis were far left wing and for more government? So they could control the population. By suggesting someone is far-right wing i would believe that to mean that they were conservative.

defined as "Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change"



where did you get that image from? I'd like a link. i've got photoshop and can make some squiggly lines too.


as for the 50 ton press..

he said “We’re talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press – gone!”

that doesn't suggest to me that it was broken up into pieces.. it makes me think exactly what he says.. which is that it is gone, no where to be found, incenerated, vaporized, whatever.






[edit on 28-8-2005 by senseless04]



posted on Aug, 28 2005 @ 04:37 PM
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I was 'there' a long time ago, luckily I grew up and started to get perspective on things.
And I actually started looking at different angles instead of automatically dismissing anything 'official' (apart from the bits I tough furthered my train of thought).
The Thermite thing was just an idea, I still don't know that the story is even true, as AFP can't be trusted with their own Granny's purse if nothing else.



posted on Aug, 28 2005 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by AgentSmith
I was 'there' a long time ago, luckily I grew up and started to get perspective on things.
And I actually started looking at different angles instead of automatically dismissing anything 'official' (apart from the bits I tough furthered my train of thought).
The Thermite thing was just an idea, I still don't know that the story is even true, as AFP can't be trusted with their own Granny's purse if nothing else.



no news agency can be trusted. if this many people are concerned over the wtc bombings, you'd think the government wouldnt be so scared to release a few videos, or audio clips so that once and for all there is no question.

in all reality, we can only make assumptions based upon well founded data on what the majority considers to be "reliable sources". All i want, is a couple questions answered, to see a few video tapes, and to hear a few audio segments.

I never really thought that was ever so much to ask. Apparently national security believes otherwise.



[edit on 28-8-2005 by senseless04]



posted on Aug, 28 2005 @ 04:44 PM
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What some people seem to be forgetting is that there was more than just jet fuel burning in the twin towers. Carpeting, furnature, insulation, and who knows what all else. I have read that WTC 7 had 42,000 gallons of diesel fuel stored near ground level, with smaller tanks to power emergency generators throughout the building. If the main towers had similiar systems this would explain a lot about the heat and the continuation of the blaze.

Another thing to consider, since I've done a demolition cleanup in the wake of wildfires. Stone, Brick, Concrete, etc don't always fare too well in a fire. I've been able to break and rocks with my shovel in some cases. So in addition to the weakening of the steel structure, you've also got to consider added being concentrated on small areas if a floor were to give under its own weight as a consequence of being weakened by fire.



posted on Aug, 28 2005 @ 04:48 PM
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Originally posted by The Vagabond
What some people seem to be forgetting is that there was more than just jet fuel burning in the twin towers. Carpeting, furnature, insulation, and who knows what all else. I have read that WTC 7 had 42,000 gallons of diesel fuel stored near ground level, with smaller tanks to power emergency generators throughout the building. If the main towers had similiar systems this would explain a lot about the heat and the continuation of the blaze.

Another thing to consider, since I've done a demolition cleanup in the wake of wildfires. Stone, Brick, Concrete, etc don't always fare too well in a fire. I've been able to break and rocks with my shovel in some cases. So in addition to the weakening of the steel structure, you've also got to consider added being concentrated on small areas if a floor were to give under its own weight as a consequence of being weakened by fire.


so how again was a 50 ton press vaporized?

this diesel fuel on ground level, was 90 floor below, suggesting that the explosion flew down 90 floors (in an oxygen deprived environment) into the basement (in an oxygen deprived environment) igniting a 42kgallon fuel tank which had to have been made of steel, ignited and then vaporized the sub basements? not very likely.

the fires in the basement and subbasement wouldn't have had enough oxygen to continue burning for any period of time. Once again i would like to point to where the fire fighters say there were multiple explosions.

www.wnbc.com...
www.thememoryhole.org...
www.rense.com...


if the official story behind flight 93 is true, then i speculate that the plane was heading for congress.

if the official story behind flight 93 is true, then i speculate they shot down the plane because the passangers regained control.

had flight 93 hit congress (which was in session), we would be living in a toliterian police state right now.




[edit on 28-8-2005 by senseless04]

[edit on 28-8-2005 by senseless04]



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