Now I'm a big skeptic of 9/11 conspiracies. I've heard alot of irrational takes on the subject from illuminati mind-controlled people hijacking airliners to ufo's crashing into the pentagon. To me, this is all irrational and if you would like to prove me wrong go ahead.

I watched the towers burn. I watched as the second jet crashed into the side of the building while people watched in terror. I have seen video footage of the 19 terrorists entering the plane and heard audio of the telephone calls concerning the hijackers. I find it insulting to believe anything other than that islamic terrorists led by Osama Bin Laden materminded and executed the 9/11 attacks. Where is your logic? Mind explaining these things to me?

If it could be explained, it wouldn't make us question the overall validity of, particularly, the accusation that Bin Laden was entirely and solely to blame. There are plenty of books on the subject. Read one of them. Yes, it was an horrific and horrendous assault on a sovereign nation. The question will always be "Who really perpetrated it and in God's name why?"

[edit on 11/8/05 by hidatsa]

Dear DaTerminator,

I don't get the point here - really. Wouldn't have been better to check out other threads and search for opposite camp arguments?

The question will always be "Who really perpetrated it and in God's name why?"

Easy. Islamic Radicals planned and executed the 9/11 attacks because they want the West to decline and for islam to rule the world. It is pretty much that simple. They don't believe in western culture and want to rid the world of it.

I don't get the point here - really. Wouldn't have been better to check out other threads and search for opposite camp arguments?

No. I don't know a soul (except for you guys) that would actually take any of these conspiracies rational. I find these conspiracy theories rather irrational and insulting. It is up to you to prove me wrong, right here and right now. Provide me with some of your best evidence.

Originally posted by DaTerminator
Easy. Islamic Radicals planned and executed the 9/11 attacks because they want the West to decline and for islam to rule the world. It is pretty much that simple. They don't believe in western culture and want to rid the world of it.

Ooh, thanks a lot for explaining it to me. Mate everyone wants/wanted to rule the world Russia, China, US is no exception. This is not as black&white as you think, the problem is with corrupted political parties/dictators fueled by greed/etc and stupid/intolerant/simple_minded people following them. There are plenty of them everywhere on the planet.

Everything is about money and power - sooo trivial and small.

Originally posted by DaTerminator
No. I don't know a soul (except for you guys) that would actually take any of these conspiracies rational. I find these conspiracy theories rather irrational and insulting. It is up to you to prove me wrong, right here and right now. Provide me with some of your best evidence.

I'm not going to do that in these circumstances. You certainly know how to find the info and I still don't get what're u trying here.

[edit on 2005-8-11 by zer69]

[edit on 2005-8-11 by zer69]

Ooh, thanks a lot for explaining it to me. Mate everyone wants/wanted to rule the world Russia, China, US is no exception. This is not as black&white as you think, the problem is with corrupted political parties/dictators fueled by greed/etc and stupid/intolerant/simple_minded people following them. There are plenty of them everywhere on the planet.

Everything is about money and power - sooo trivial and small.

So you believe that the US is power hungry enough to kill 3,000 of it's citizens only to destroy one of its biggest land marks and through the whole country into an economic crisis? It makes absolutely no sense what so ever.

I'm not going to do that in these circumstances. You certainly know how to find the info and I still don't get what're u trying here.

It doesn't take many brains to be able to figure out what I'm asking. I blatantly am stating my thoughts that 9/11 conspiracies are for the gullable and irrational and it's up to you to prove me wrong. I demand substantial evidence. Present your best arguements/evidence. Your lack of doing so will only contribute to my position.

This is a waste of time but...

DaTerminator I would request that you prove to me that a bunch of crazed cave-dwellers with box cutters brought those buildings down? Prove it, dont tell me the story I had heard it hundreds of times, I want PROOF!

Look, there are many thread on this topic, namely howard roark who, just like you wants people to come forth with their theories and proof to back their claims up so he can shoot em down with what he thinks is the only reality.

Frankly, your no different then him and if you truly cared about being open minded and researching these theories, as you are on a conspiracy site, then you should be trolling the other threads that are like yours... And yes, they are a dime a dozen.

What's insulting to me about your post if that you find us conspiracy theorists insulting for asking questions that haven't been answered... Your slapping husbands and wives of victims in the face by closing your self off to other potentional possibilities...They dared to ask ask questions like we have and are stunned for they too fell into the rabbit hole.

letsroll911.org is funded by the wife of the penn air crash victim and she too is leary. numerous witnesses about warnings to get out of the buildings, guiliani being one of them, and larry silverstein admitting to the planted explosives and his paper trail leading up to a 7 billion dollar inheritannce from his insurance company.... there are too many inconsistencies, coincidences, and just flat out abnormal government procedures that took place that day 'BEFORE' the event occured........

I say not more as I already felt while I wrote the above that i'm doing you a disservice by interrupting the bubble I think you enjoy living in.

Don't let these liberals bother you Terminator.

LoneGunMan, i'll explain the cave dweller theory bring a planes down with box cutters for you, ok?

9 "TERRORISTS" (NOT monkey cave dwellers), smuggled onto the plane, box cutters. Box cutters are VERY SHARP! If i swiped one of these at your throat, you would die. A plane full of of passive Americans didn't understand what was happening until it was TOO LATE. Syncronized TERRORISTS simutaneously rushed the OPEN cockpit of the plane, SLIT the pilots throats with BOX CUTTERS. A few TERRORISTS who were trained to fly these planes took control of them. The other TERRORISTS aggressively forced ALL the passengers to the back of the plane and told them it was a hijacking and to stay calm. NO passengers ever thought these TERRORISTS would ever actually intentionally fly these planes into buildings. BUT that is what indeed happened.

How is that scenerio so hard to understand?!? You conspiracy wacks REALLY have to get a life. Listen, i don't believe in somethings, yet i do believe in others. I believe UFO's are possible, given the freakish size of the Universe. I believe it is possible that Lee Harvey Oswald didn't act alone, although i have seen evidence that it's POSSIBLE that he did.

It's obvious you libs are lonely and need to interact more with people. PLEASE take my advise and get out this weekend, mingle with some stangers. There are evil people out there but not everyone is out to get you or undermine you.

"TERRORISTS" (NOT monkey cave dwellers)

I dont recall anyone, ever, describing them as monkey cave dwellers...?

Syncronized TERRORISTS simutaneously rushed the OPEN cockpit of the plane, SLIT the pilots throats with BOX CUTTERS.

I've always thought the idea that the cockpit door was wide open is a little hard to believe, but considering I've never traveled on a plane I cant say thats its totally unbelievable.

A plane full of of passive Americans didn't understand what was happening until it was TOO LATE

If you were on that plane and suddenly several Arabic men stood and rushed the cockpit door, would you just sit and watch, I think personally I would have realized what was happening rather quickly.

The other TERRORISTS aggressively forced ALL the passengers to the back of the plane

On each plane there allegedly about 5 terrorists, Flight 175 and Flight 11 had roughly 55 and 80 passengers respectively (give or take a few). The other 2 flights had somewhere around 40 and 60, now you want me to believe that these terrorists armed with boxcutters sucessfully forced ALL of those people into the back of the planes without being overwhelmed by angry/scared passengers who at this time certainly had to have known what was going on?

NO passengers ever thought these TERRORISTS would ever actually intentionally fly these planes into buildings.

Way to state the obvious there...

But wouldn't you have a good idea of what thier ultimate intentions were considering they had already supposedly slain the pilots and maybe others that interferred?

How is that scenerio so hard to understand?!?

Hmmm, I dont know....

You conspiracy wacks REALLY have to get a life.

It's obvious you libs are lonely and need to interact more with people. PLEASE take my advise and get out this weekend, mingle with some stangers.

Thats typical, because we dont believe the official story that our government gives us we are "wacks" or liberals, heres a newsflash buddy, not all of us are liberals, infact personally I dont associate myself with any political party or group anymore, they are all crooked just the same.

Try using less insults and name calling next time and perhaps people will take you more seriously.

If you were on that plane and suddenly several Arabic men stood and rushed the cockpit door, would you just sit and watch, I think personally I would have realized what was happening rather quickly.

You are rather ignorant on the subject. Most hijacking doesn't involve planes crashing into buildings. In most cases people hijack planes so that they can get to inaccessable places such as Cuba, and everything works out fine. People did not want to cause trouble and they didn't know what was about to go down. The passengers who did find out what was going to happen fought against the terrorists and ended up crashed in a pennsylvania field.

I've always thought the idea that the cockpit door was wide open is a little hard to believe, but considering I've never traveled on a plane I cant say thats its totally unbelievable.

During most plane flights before 9/11 in-flight security was virtually non-existent. Pilots invited people, mostly kids, to come up and act like a pilot for a few minutes. I did this when I was a little kid.

On each plane there allegedly about 5 terrorists, Flight 175 and Flight 11 had roughly 55 and 80 passengers respectively (give or take a few). The other 2 flights had somewhere around 40 and 60, now you want me to believe that these terrorists armed with boxcutters sucessfully forced ALL of those people into the back of the planes without being overwhelmed by angry/scared passengers who at this time certainly had to have known what was going on?

Yes. Previos hijackers were successful of doing this with Jumbo Jets with as little as two people. The trouble is (see above) that the passengers had no way of knowing what was going to happen and believed that they would be ok if they cooperated.

But wouldn't you have a good idea of what thier ultimate intentions were considering they had already supposedly slain the pilots and maybe others that interferred?

No. As I said this type of hijacking was unheard of. Usually cooperation= safety.

Face it, the conspiracy theory is full of wholes and is a ludacris and irrational idea in itself. If you can come up with a legitimate and rational reason why the government would intentionally do this themselves then tell me.

Face it, the conspiracy theory is full of wholes and is a ludacris and irrational idea in itself. If you can come up with a legitimate and rational reason why the government would intentionally do this themselves then tell me.

To take away your bill of rights, put in place the Patriot Act, and have ultimate control, money and power. Fascism without having to use shock troops. Fear alone will let the great experiment in freedom of the common man, that experiment being America, to go quietly into the night.

Terminator, everything you said about hijackings is completely believable it really is, and I know this, I've watched pre 9/11 hijackings unfold on TV in the past, it doesn't always end up like it did that day.

The passengers who did find out what was going to happen fought against the terrorists and ended up crashed in a pennsylvania field.

I knew that was coming...so only the passengers on that plane fought back and why? Let me guess, because 1 guy got a cell phone call from his wife alerting him of the situation that was developing, right? That's the only story I've ever heard.

During most plane flights before 9/11 in-flight security was virtually non-existent. Pilots invited people, mostly kids, to come up and act like a pilot for a few minutes. I did this when I was a little kid.

Again, given the fact that I've never been on a plane, I wont directly dispute that comment but I would like to hear confirmation from others that this is how it worked pre 9/11.

Yes. Previos hijackers were successful of doing this with Jumbo Jets with as little as two people. The trouble is (see above) that the passengers had no way of knowing what was going to happen and believed that they would be ok if they cooperated.

Obviously they didn't know what was going to happen but again, I find it very hard to believe that they thought they would be safe if they cooperated with the men that just murdered the pilots in front of them.

Seems to me the Government's theory is the one with holes, I've seen no undisputed proof but I can find TONS of evidence supporting the conspiracy, as can you.

By the way, although I dont agree with you I do respect you and anyone who has the courage to voice their opinion so try and keep that in mind when your calling me ignorant or "wack"

[edit on 8/12/2005 by JKersteJr]

To take away your bill of rights, put in place the Patriot Act, and have ultimate control, money and power. Fascism without having to use shock troops. Fear alone will let the great experiment in freedom of the common man, that experiment being America, to go quietly into the night.

That's dogma nothing more. The patriot act does not take away many of our personal freedoms, only enough to ensure that another attack doesn't take place. All citizens of the country have to abide by the patriot act. At the end of the president's term he will be under the scrutiny of the government as any other civilian. I'm sorry but there is a big difference between communism and patriot act.

I knew that was coming...so only the passengers on that plane fought back and why? Let me guess, because 1 guy got a cell phone call from his wife alerting him of the situation that was developing, right? That's the only story I've ever heard.

And why is that not reasonable?

Again, given the fact that I've never been on a plane, I wont directly dispute that comment but I would like to hear confirmation from others that this is how it worked pre 9/11.

Trust me, that's how it was. The door might not have been wide open, but it sure wasn't deadbolted.

Obviously they didn't know what was going to happen but again, I find it very hard to believe that they thought they would be safe if they cooperated with the men that just murdered the pilots in front of them.

Seems to me the Government's theory is the one with holes, I've seen no undisputed proof but I can find TONS of evidence supporting the conspiracy, as can you.

If someone said that they had a bomb and if anyone tried to resist they wold detonate it, what would you do? They had no idea about the plan, and believed that if they were to be quite no bombs would go off and nobody would be hurt.

Seems to me the Government's theory is the one with holes, I've seen no undisputed proof but I can find TONS of evidence supporting the conspiracy, as can you.

I am not going to waste any more of my time than I already am talking to you. I demand evidence from YOU. You are the ones making the claims and it is your job to provide me with evidence of the "inside job." It is not my job to come up with evidence to back your claim, it is yours.

And why is that not reasonable?

I never said it wasn't reasonable...but if you insist...
Out of 230ish passengers, only 1 gets a phone call warning them of what was happening? Lets be unrealistic and say only 1/4 of those passengers had cell phones, even then its very iffy to think that there was only 1 documented conversation. Tradegy was unfolding in front of everyone on TV, If I had someone I cared about on one of those planes, of course I would call them.

If someone said that they had a bomb and if anyone tried to resist they wold detonate it, what would you do? They had no idea about the plan, and believed that if they were to be quite no bombs would go off and nobody would be hurt

Thats a very reasonable statement and I wont argue with it because I cant Doesn't mean thats how it happened though....

I am not going to waste any more of my time than I already am talking to you. I demand evidence from YOU. You are the ones making the claims and it is your job to provide me with evidence of the "inside job." It is not my job to come up with evidence to back your claim, it is yours

We are both wasting our time man, your not gonna believe me and I'm not gonna believe you, but those of us that support a conspiracy HAVE delivered evidence, I could go and collect a bunch of links to directly show you but I doubt you would read them anyway. Ironically I haven't seen much solid proof supporting the Governments story.

[edit on 8/12/2005 by JKersteJr]

[edit on 8/12/2005 by JKersteJr]

I think lumping all the conspiracy theorists together is a bit harsh, from what i've read on here it ranges from people who've done genuine detailed research into unclear events, and then theres the outright raging loons who just jump on the band wagon and claim all manner of silly goings on.

I can see valid points in each argument, although i lean on the side of what we saw happened rather than the cover up side, but i wont call you all a bunch of wacko's

I suppose its like anything at the end of the day, until theres cast iron evidence (either way) then the conspiracy theories will be just that.... theories

If i was on a plane before 9/11 and terrorists took the plane i would do as i'm told because all other hijackings before 9/11 were as already said, just an excuse to get into another country and usually ended peacfully, hell we even had a couple of loons hi jack one and land in the UK just so they could claim assylum (sp)!!

The take on events that have been presented to the general public by the US government is perfectly reasonable to me, and the people trying to link in the London bombings well thats beyond a joke, some people have trouble beleiving something ISNT a conspiracy, these are the people that need help.


[edit on 12-8-2005 by Ernold Same]

We are both wasting our time man, your not gonna believe me and I'm not gonna believe you, but those of us that support a conspiracy HAVE delivered evidence, I could go and collect a bunch of links to directly show you but I doubt you would read them anyway. Ironically I haven't seen much solid proof supporting the Governments story.

I just don't understand why you can't accept the common story that pretty much everyone, even mosts liberals or anti-bush people, believes. I have a good feeling that these conspiracy theories were started only after the anti-bush sentiment grew. If you have any good arguements or evidences, I would like to see them presented here. As Ernold said, some people have trouble believing there isn't a conspiracy and will believe the conspiracy even when there is evidence to the contrary. Common sense tells me that Al Queda is responsible for the 9/11 attacks. There is just no legitmate reason why the government would do such a thing, and there is truck-loads of evidence to support the fact that Al Queda is directly responsible for the attacks. If you still insist that you have all this evidence to support a government coverup that can withstand scrutiny than provide it. Your avoiding my request only shows that you aren't sure of yourself.

Originally posted by JKersteJr
but those of us that support a conspiracy HAVE delivered evidence, I could go and collect a bunch of links to directly show you but I doubt you would read them anyway. Ironically I haven't seen much solid proof supporting the Governments story.

You are right; I wouldn’t read them, because I’ve already seen most of them and have seen through the holes in the logic or the psuedoscience that is passed off as proof.

I am curious, however, are there any 911 conspiracy theories that you don’t find credible?

Pods, aliens, micronukes in the basement, etc. there are some pretty wild ones out there. Are any of them too far out, even for you?

I just don't understand why you can't accept the common story that pretty much everyone, even mosts liberals or anti-bush people, believes.

Thats a fairly assumptious statement, I dont think most liberal anti/bush people believe the governments theory, a lot do yes but then again its the only story we as the people have ever been given.

I have a good feeling that these conspiracy theories were started only after the anti-bush sentiment grew.

I totally agree, but political conspiracy theories didn't start with 9/11 though, all I have to do is read history books and I'm painted a pretty clear picture of how governments throughout history have decieved their citizens for one reason or another, good or bad intentions.

As Ernold said, some people have trouble believing there isn't a conspiracy and will believe the conspiracy even when there is evidence to the contrary

I realize that, I see theories on these forums that are just totally out there, I think a lot of people get caught up in all the information being thrown every which way. However, and you have my word on this, personally, it didn't take me searching for fringe websites and reading about conspiracies to see that something was fishy about 9/11, I hadn't even been to a single website of this nature before the attacks. I even supported the Govt story for a long time, I was angry that these terrorists could have done something like this, and I wanted revenge just like most people did at the time. I was shocked when the Bush Administration presented arial photos of supposed WMD equipment in Iraq, and I guess I supported our invasion then because I was scared. I think the turning point for me though is several months/years after we started the war, we weren't finding ANY of these supposed weapons...and we still arent! To me that means our Government lied to us.

Not to mention the fact that the whole Afghanistan/Osama Bin Laden thing pretty much took a back burner to invading Iraq...wait, last time I checked Osama was the mastermind here and he isn't in Iraq, Saddam didn't kill everyone in the WTC....

There is just no legitmate reason why the government would do such a thing

Do your history, things very similiar have happened in the past...hint, Hitler/Nazi Germany.

and there is truck-loads of evidence to support the fact that Al Queda is directly responsible for the attacks.

Yes there is, and who supplied the majority of that evidence....thats right the Government and Media.

If you still insist that you have all this evidence to support a government coverup that can withstand scrutiny than provide it. Your avoiding my request only shows that you aren't sure of yourself.

Ok, put it this way, I dont 100% believe either theory, I just tend to lean towards the conspiracy theory, it just seems more credible to me. Also, I am not avoiding your requests, I cant give you 100% proof and thats the only thing thats gonna convince you I'm sure. If you want the info, its there, you are in the 9/11 7/7 CONSPIRACIES forum remember....

[edit on 8/12/2005 by JKersteJr]

Originally posted by HowardRoark
I am curious, however, are there any 911 conspiracy theories that you don’t find credible?

Pods, aliens, micronukes in the basement, etc. there are some pretty wild ones out there. Are any of them too far out, even for you?

Yes sir, there are many many theories out there that I dont give one shred of credibility to.

Like I said I'm not looking for conspiracies, I'm looking for the truth, I've observed things from both standpoints, done some research and now lean towards the un-official theories.

Ask me about anything you want guys, that what I'm here for to discuss, and learn, I'm a very open person and I can assure you I'm not crazy

[edit on 8/12/2005 by JKersteJr]