IS Jesus God or the Son of God???

I have tryed to start this topic once already, but cant find it

Some say Jesus is God in the Flesh.(meaning Jesus is God himself)
My question is your thoughts about this knowing some of the scriptures I am about to say and list.

John 17 v 1-25 Jesus is praying to God The father and not him self. Many times in the gospels Jesus is found Praying to god and not himself. How do some of you who say Jesus is god answer this?????

Though i cant find this two saying in the gospels i know their there. Jesus says (Why call me good, only god is good). second jesus says (No man nor the son of man knows the timing of christ, only the father knows when christ will come.)

How do some of you believer's answered this???? When Jesus says he does'nt know his coming, but that only God knows.??????

MOst imporant if you read revelations Chapter 4 v2-3 & and read chapter 5 v1 then read v 6-7 What happens is this John go's to heaven in spirit and see's god siting in the throne between 24 elders holding the Scroll Of Seven Seals in his right hand. Jesus comes and takes that scroll right out of God's right hand. showing Two different bodies.

How does a believer that Jesus is God answer this?????

Jesus and all over the new testment says he is the SON OF GOD (meaning Off spring of God) HOw do you believers answer this??????

The Bible passages that cover this topic are clear and totally in support of this concept. The problem we as human beings often have when we consider this is that we have a very limited perspective of time and space.

We are limited to four dimensions, three of space and one of time. God does not exist with these extreme limitations. This is why God can and does exist in three separate forms but that each of these forms are one.

A simple explanation is this:

Imagine if the world we lived in existed in only two dimensions of space. This world was like a flat piece of paper with length and width but had no depth. Everything that we could see would be limited by this perception. If suddenly a spot appeared before us we would see it as one thing separate from all others. As we were observing the spot we saw, suddenly two other separate spots also appear. These three spots were totally separate from each other yet they claim to be one. This truth would blow our two space dimensional minds!

However, what we cannot see because of our limitations is that the three spots continue into a third dimension of space upward. The three spots are actually three fingers connected to one hand. It turns out that the spots were not lying when they claimed that they were three yet one.

This may help to give you a glimpse of God's greatness and help you to understand that which our limited Human minds cannot conceive.

If this concept interests you please go to the following link and listen to the MP3 audio files. Many topics are talked about but the science of God is one of my favorites!

www.khouse.org...




Machine

Titus 2:13
Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.

Romans 9:5
… Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come, … This is the true God and eternal life.

Philippians 2:5-7
… Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 20:28
Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God.

Acts 20:28
Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the Church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Jesus and all over the new testment says he is the SON OF GOD (meaning Off spring of God) HOw do you believers answer this??????

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

What does I AM mean?
Read the Old Testament......Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers,
the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
Here, Moses is like Christ-pre-figuring Christ as King....Moses wasfound on water-pre-figures Babtism in the New Yestamnet.....there are lots of pre-figurations in the old testament of Christ being Born........

1 Timothy 3:16
God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Christ is God

quote///Slymattb/John 17 v 1-25 Jesus is praying to God The father and not him self. Many times in the gospels Jesus is found Praying to god and not himself. How do some of you who say Jesus is god answer this?????

When God took flesh and became man(for the sins of the world)He also was perfect man and perfect God......In order to teach us how to be in this world, He used prayer,fasting and Verses from the Old Testament to prove who He was.....and those that were humble and willing to truly listen, understood who Jesus Christ truly was...He had to pray like this to give us an example of how we should also be.....
For those that thought otherwise and did not truly listen to Jesus Christ, had their own ideas of who the Messiah would be .....


Slymattb Revelation is full of numbers ....in order to properly understand one has to go back to scripture of the Old and New testament and then back again to Revelation.

We on our own cannot and should not try to attempt to decipher the meaning because we can only come up with our OWN ideas and not those of who understood the scriptures.....
All of the Early Fathers of the Church have done this....and all came to the same conclusion of what the scriptures say....
"Whoever is willing to do it - will understand that this teaching is from God" (John 7:17).


The vision of the Heavenly Liturgy~Ch.4-5

The Bible has one story. It is the record of God’s making Himself known to man and of man’s response to God’s self-disclosure.
The Old Testament is the story of a Covenant people in a community of faith, ancient Israel, journeying toward a new and better place in time, sometimes obedient and sometimes disobedient to God, Who was always striving to break through to show Himself in completeness.
He spoke through His prophets, through saints, seers, and rulers, and through the events of history until the time had “Fully come when everything in heaven and earth should be unified in Christ,” (Eph. 1:10) as Paul put it, “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,” (John 1:14) as John put it. God spoke the living Word in terms humanity could understand, “The way, the truth, the life” in a Person.
The New Testament continues the theme with the people of the New Covenant, the new Israel of God, the Body of Christ, the Church of witnessing people journeying through history.
Here is the Book of man in his pilgrimage through time and beyond time, learning to know God, to discern His will and do it, living in a community of faith, ever witnessing to the coming Kingdom,
the law of which is love,
and the Ruler of which will be the transcendent God at the final consummation of history.
But the major theme of the Holy Scripture is the salvation of humanity by the Messiah, the incarnate Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ. The Old Testament proclaims salvation in the forms of symbols and prophesies about the Messiah and the Kingdom of Heaven.
The New Testament enunciates the actual realization of our salvation through the incarnation, life and teachings of the God-Man, sealed through His death and Resurrection.
Depending upon the times they were written, the Holy Writings are grouped into the New and Old Testaments.
The first contain that which the Lord revealed to the world through God-inspired prophets before Christ’s appearance on Earth, while the second group describes that which was taught by our Lord Savior Himself and his Apostles.

Understanding the Bible

"My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and carry it out" (Luke 8:21).
"Blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it"(Luke 11:28).

Christ the Lord, is called "the Word" or "the Logos" in the Bible. God is the Word(John 1:1). All those words which come from the eternal and absolute Word are full of God, Divine Truth, Eternity, and Righteousness. If you listen to them, you are listening to God. If you read them, you are reading the direct words of God. God the Word became flesh, became man (John 1:14),

The Bible is the book of the Church. We therefore read Holy Scripture, not as isolated individuals, but as members of the Church. In order to keep Holy Scripture in the mind of the Church, we observe how Scripture is used in worship, and how it is interpreted by the Holy Fathers. Our approach then to the Bible is both Liturgical and Patristic.

Holy Scripture In The Orthodox Church

Always we seek for the point of convergence between the Old Testament and the New, and this we find in Jesus Christ. Orthodoxy assigns particular significance to the "typological" method of interpretation, whereby "types" of Christ, signs and symbols of His work, are discerned throughout the Old Testament. A notable example of this is Melchizedek, the priest-king of Salem, who offered bread and wine to Abraham (Genesis 14:18), and who is seen as a type of Christ not only by the Fathers but even in the New Testament itself (Hebrews 5:6; 7:l)

:105).]"Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path" (Psalm 118 [119]:105).

Does any of that help ?

IX
helen

So, most references to Jesus being God are from the Gospel of John.

hmmmm

How about other Gospels? Matthew? Luke?
Oh and I am talking about CLEAR references to Jesus being God, stuff like "I am GOD", and not vague interpretations of something that might be interpreted as such.

Originally posted by Machine
This is why God can and does exist in three separate forms but that each of these forms are one.



I do believe that God is One with his children and mostly Jesus. But God did say Thuo salt only worship ONE GOD. Dont we brake that commandment by worshiping three????

And if Jesus was God then i say again, why does he pray to god(not himself) Brother, he prays gets down on his own knees and prays to God. If he was god why would he pray to himself?????? He prays more than once to God. Why than would he do that if he was God????

Originally posted by helen670

When God took flesh and became man(for the sins of the world)He also was perfect man and perfect God......In order to teach us how to be in this world, He used prayer,fasting and Verses from the Old Testament to prove who He was.....and those that were humble and willing to truly listen, understood who Jesus Christ truly was...He had to pray like this to give us an example of how we should also be.....
For those that thought otherwise and did not truly listen to Jesus Christ, had their own ideas of who the Messiah would be .....



Sorry But i still see a man praying to his father. What your saying is God got down on his knees to pray to himself, to show everone els what they should do. Some how i dont believe in this. ( THUO SALT WORSHIP ONE GOD) In this belief you are worshiping too. A brake of the commandment. second When Jesus died on the cross he said( God why does THUO forsaken ME. Why does the God in heaven forsaken Jesus on Earth????

Plus i say again
MOst imporant if you read revelations Chapter 4 v2-3 & and read chapter 5 v1 then read v 6-7 What happens is this John go's to heaven in spirit and see's god siting in the throne between 24 elders holding the Scroll Of Seven Seals in his right hand. Jesus comes and takes that scroll right out of God's right hand. showing Two different bodies.

Read revelation in these scriptures Jesus comes and takes the scroll out of God's right hand?????

How do you answer this

I've read in more than one source that the council of Nicea took the democratic approach. All the Bishops under the iniciative of Constantine took a vote.

Jesus became God with a vote of 40 to 33.

Or, so the story goes .......

But, you can't believe everything you read.

Mainly because history has been written by those who ruled with fear and hate at that time.

History has been permitted to be what it is by those who ruled with fear and hate since that time.

History has been changed by those who ruled throughout history.

People don't usually rule with peace and love and a reverence for truth, they usually rule with a reverence for what was most self serving for themselves.

Human nature propels ignorance.

The short answer, Jesus is God and worthy of worship and praise. Jesus was believed to be God from the first Apostles not several hundred years later during a vote.

Open your hearts and minds and the truth will set you free!

www.ankerberg.com...

[edit on 11-8-2005 by Machine]

Paperclip/

So, most references to Jesus being God are from the Gospel of John.
Oh and I am talking about CLEAR references to Jesus being God, stuff like "I am GOD", and not vague interpretations of something that might be interpreted as such.

In the Gospel of St John St John the Babtist is the Fore-runner of Christ(He prophesied the Messiah coming and the Jews knew this and were scared,it will be just like the Antichrist,a false prophet will proclaim that the Messiah is coming who will be the Antichrist)
He Prophesied .......
6:There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7:The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8:He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9:That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10:He was in the world,and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

15:John bare witness of him, and cried,saying,
This was he of whom I spake ,He that cometh after me is preferred before me:for he was before me.
16:And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17:For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.


Jesus Christ came as a HUMBLE servant so we can also imitate Him in His ways.....Vanity and pride is our downfall.

Esoteric/

I've read in more than one source that the council of Nicea took the democratic approach. All the Bishops under the iniciative of Constantine took a vote.

See Figures 5 and 6 of Saints Ignatius, Clement, Polycarp and Irenaeus, the immediate successors of the apostles. They confirm that the books of the New Testament were written by Christ’s disciples and were thus accepted by the early Church as valid from the outset. They also point to the unbroken continuity of the Orthodox Church from the time of the Apostles to the present.
Figures 5 and 6


Slymattb/

MOst imporant if you read revelations Chapter 4 v2-3 & and read chapter 5 v1 then read v 6-7 What happens is this John go's to heaven in spirit and see's god siting in the throne between 24 elders holding the Scroll Of Seven Seals in his right hand. Jesus comes and takes that scroll right out of God's right hand. showing Two different bodies.

The fourth chapter contains the beginning of a new, a second vision.
The depiction of a new and magnificent spectacle which opens before the gaze of St John begins with a commandment to him to ascend through an open door in heaven so as to see''things which must be hereafter''.
The opening of the door signifies the revelation of the hidden mysteries of the Spirit.By the words ''Come hither,'' the hearer is commanded to put off entirely earthly thinking and be converted to heavenly thinking.

The Apocalypse: In the Teachings of Ancient Christianity (Paperback)


Ch.4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty four seats:and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting,clothed in white rainment;and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
see Mathew 19:28)....Ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
That by these twenty four elders one must understand twelve representatives of the Old Testament humanity-the Holy patriarchs and prophets -and twelve representatives of the New Testament humanity-namely, the twelve Apostles of Christ.
The white garments are a symbol of purity and eternal feasting,and the golden crowns are a sign of victory over demons.

Taken from Teachings of Ancient Christianity ...The Apocalypse..see above.

IX
helen

Originally posted by Machine
The problem we as human beings often have when we consider this is that we have a very limited perspective of time and space.

Yes!

It turns out that the spots were not lying when they claimed that they were three yet one.

Another yes!

I must add: I think there is no limit to these 'fingers,' either--the goal is to populate the entire hand with fingers like that hand--the right and not the left, so to speak.

This may help to give you a glimpse of God's greatness and help you to understand that which our limited Human minds cannot conceive.

No doubt!

Many topics are talked about but the science of God is one of my favorites!

Mine too! I think it is an unlimited supply--as much 'brain food' as one might want--or maybe I should say living water and manna from heaven!

'God' more than just three forms--and God, the Father is not part of the whole, but is the whole--as in the source and energy fueling all of creation, both material and ethereal.

Manifestations of God are by His malaks--messengers: angels, prophets, and apostles.

In the OT, God's Spirit was manifested by the 'Angel of the LORD' with varying characters (according to their name, such as Michael='who is like God' Gabriel='God is my strength' Raphael='comfort of God')

God's character is vast and unsearchable, and more than likely too big for man to encounter in His wholeness (so far). So man receives the appropriate manifestation for each situation of divine assistance and guidance.

When God visited Abraham, on the way to judge Sodom and Gomorrah, there were three angels who comprised God for that visitation. There were two different purposes for the visit, from what we read, and so likely 3 angelic beings were required for the full manifestation due those situations.

Moses wanted to see God--and God said He would do this for Moses--but He concealed His face from Moses, so only His 'back parts' were viewed by Moses. More than anyone else saw, nevertheless.

Our LORD God, the 'Self Existent' who proclaimed His name was 'I AM that I AM' to Moses, was the first manifestation of God the Father in any sense--The Father is pure spirit--and even though in the OT the LORD was not yet a human, He was not pure Spirit, either. Pure, yes--but some substance was given in order to be the LORD, the ruler of the creation which had been His first work of order (I'm guessing--from what I know, that was the first thing, but I know little).

The Father, pure Spirit, essential and pure Mind. The LORD was the First Thought of that Mind, and then when the Word was spoken, the Christ became manifest, but hid in God until His time.

But the chasm between Creator and creation was still impassable for man--and would remain so without any augmentation. Only God can bridge that wide of a gap.

So God did just that--and spiritual reality (which is the vertical piece of the cross) intersected with carnal reality (the shorter crosspiece of the cross) upon the cross.

Jesus was prepared from conception by his Father, the Father--and was sired by spirit and given birth to by flesh. Just as for every human born, the Life (air) from God and the flesh (earth) combines to create the soul, the vehicle of which is blood (water). And the pure Spirit of the Father is fire.

So Jesus was just as much a human as all of us--yet He was given more than just that which makes us a living soul--He was given the mind of the LORD, through the spirit of his Father, in full. And by the time He was crucified He had obeyed his Father, had become the first official Son, at the time of His baptism, and strenthened and established as the Son again at the time of Transfiguration, became the Christ through receiving anointment at Bethany, and won the battle at the moment the human body died. He was the one who 'opened the womb'--due as a tithe per the covenant law of Moses. He was the first begotten of the dead.

When 'He gave up the ghost', He gave up the soul that had been formed at His conception to the world--to serve as our guide across the chasm. His soul was made immortal by the Father before He died--and that is what must have happened at the transfiguration.

And as the Christ--the soul in which Spirit and flesh are reconciled--He made our bodies pure and eligible to house God's Spirit--temples.

Christ conquered all at the moment of death--except the grave, itself. Only faith in the Father could overcome the grave--He was an example for us in His every work, and the tremendous faith and obedience, not to mention love and selflessness, that the man, Jesus, went through as His divine work--that was one of our key goals--to trust as He did, because that's the only Way.

On the cross, He fulfilled His anointing and redeemed man from skin/sin by becoming the sacrifice and making the temple pure for all time.

In the grave, He fulfilled the curse of death, and built the bridge across the chasm.

At the resurrection, He proved the Father as faithful (don't misunderstand the word 'prove' here--it's in the sense we read of in scripture) and when He took His place at the right hand of God, was established as God's Magistrate--Supreme Ruler of all of creation. He had 'come of Age' by fulfilling every manifestation of the Father, and that's what He is to us.

He is essentially God, being the 'express image of the Father'--All the fullness of the Godhead dwells in the glorified body of Jesus Christ. He is the full and complete manifestation of God--but yet is not the Father, He is in the Father. And all things will become in Him, and so all things will be within the Father (which is a constant--there can be no existence outside of the Father).

He is not exactly equal to the Father, but on the other hand, He is. And the fullness of all is in Him, because He is the place where the two states of consciousness/existence meet.

I believe we are to worship God, the Father, manifested in our hearts by Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit--not as representations but more like facilitators--it is through those two that we can experience and know the Father. I do not think we are to worship either Christ, Himself, as Christ, or the Holy Spirit.

To say that Father, Son, and Spirit are three separate, equal, unified 'persons' in one 'trinity' doesn't really = unity. The Father is the unity--all parts are part of that unity--and none are parallel. The Father planned, and the Son and the Spirit performed separate but all-important roles in the Plan. As far as equality between those two--that doesn't seem to be an applicable categorization--for the Holy Ghost is the product of the birth of the human/divine Christ, and was only a separate manifestation after the Son was accepted at the throne. At that time Christ must have no longer required that 'life-line'--and it was then free to perform it's task toward us--becoming our lifeline, among many other things. Many angels all in one--inside of us.

The Father is the head of the family, and the Son is 'the builder of the family name.' The Spirit is much like the 'nurturer' of the babes growing up in the family. We are the family.

All are part of God the Father--but only within the Son.

My official answer, slymattb, is:

Jesus Christ didn't become 'God' until He ascended to the throne---although He had been God in the days of the OT. He made Himself a little lower than angels and also did not think it robbery to be equal with God--but He clearly said that the Father was greater than He even while it was true that He and the Father were one--He was in the Father, and the Father inside of Him.

????



[edit on 8/12/2005 by queenannie38]

Originally posted by helen670

Esoteric/

I've read in more than one source that the council of Nicea took the democratic approach. All the Bishops under the iniciative of Constantine took a vote.

See Figures 5 and 6 of Saints Ignatius, Clement, Polycarp and Irenaeus, the immediate successors of the apostles. They confirm that the books of the New Testament were written by Christ’s disciples and were thus accepted by the early Church as valid from the outset. They also point to the unbroken continuity of the Orthodox Church from the time of the Apostles to the present.
Figures 5 and 6

Then why do the gospells contradict eachother with respects to Jesus's birth stories and his family geneology?

Originally posted by slymattb
How does a believer that Jesus is God answer this?????

The New Testament is a compilation of the evolution of the Jesus myth. The earliest writings, Paul's, depict Jesus as the spiritual intermediary between humans and the perfect inaccessible Platonic god popular in the first century. Paul never refers to Jesus as the "Son of Man", but rather, as god's son, a spiritual being who conquered over sin before the beginning of time, with Paul himself chosen as the one to reveal this secret that had been previously hidden.

Later on, Jesus was turned into a historical figure by the gospel writers, who leveraged off thinking from the books of Enoch, in which the savior was the spiritual Son of Man who could be manifested in both the physical and spiritual realms.

Later still, the trinity doctrine was popularized, thus turning Jesus into god incarnate.

The confusion you are having is caused by failing to recognize the evolution of a myth.

Jesus IS THE SON OF GOD... no ifs or buts ...

Thats what the Bible says, for some reason some denominations have distotted that to say that Jesus is God, and they make that their bravato " Do you know who Jeeeesus is ?"... and if you answer Son of God, they're answer is "well you're not ruly saved than"...whatever!

and the Trinity doesnt exist either...the Bible speaks of a God-Head and of Jesus THE SON OF GOD..."God's only begotten son"

since there is no way to prove this, either way, I guess you are taking an opinion poll, right? You should say that up front.

I was not going to post this, as most of you already know the passage, and I had really hoped that it would come to mind - so that it would not be necessary to "Force it" - as I was a little concerned about causing an unnatural progression in what must remain individual discovery of G-d. However, as this question needs to be answered decisevly.

Mat 15:34 Proves that Christ IS NOT G-d.
If he was He could not forsake himself, and if he could forsake himself he wouldn't ask why he was being forsaken.

[edit on 8/13/2005 by dancer]

Originally posted by dancer


Mat 15:34 Proves that Christ IS NOT G-d.
If he was He could not forsake himself, and if he could forsake himself he wouldn't ask why he was being forsaken.

[edit on 8/13/2005 by dancer]

EXACTLY ! Pretty simple to get huh?

and of course this thread is to be answered based on what the Bible says... we are not debating if it is true or not...just simply POSTING what the Bile says.

Spam quoteThe confusion you are having is caused by failing to recognize the evolution of a myth.



Now I like to know why cant some believe in God the father by faith. I wan t all to answer this by they're on opinion back up with Bible scriptures. I think ITs important to understand who Jesus really is. And I give thanks to those that posted great things about Jesus . But now lets look at The fact that some cant believe in something we cant see. Why cant they.

example One way to look at this, is the fact that the devil stops people from see. The Devil blinds people.

Example 2 some people canot believe in something like God with out proof, evidents.

Originally posted by slymattb
But now lets look at The fact that some cant believe in something we cant see. Why cant they.

example One way to look at this, is the fact that the devil stops people from see. The Devil blinds people.

Then doesn't that make the devil more powerful than god?

Originally posted by slymattb
Example 2 some people canot believe in something like God with out proof, evidents.

Your right.

[spam quote
Then doesn't that make the devil more powerful than god?]

To say there is a evil force, also means there is a good force. Right now there can not be one with out the other.

Originally posted by slymattb

spam Your right.

Hope fully God will change you. But put it this way. being that you know so much. God says you have to follow him by faith. And that if you ask him for a sign for his liveing, he will give you none. What if god did prove he was here to you. What would you do???????????? Being YOU cant follow by faith, and that you are weak. So if God did prove TO YOU that he was here, what would you do??????????? you cant follow him by faith, why because you know. So what would you do??????? most likely nothing because your faith is weak, your faith would still be weak, even if there we proof.