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Weapons for Citizens?

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posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 03:49 PM
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Cool....I was just wondering because I know that in my Legal Studies Class a couple of years ago our teacher was telling us how if someone breaks into your house it is best to just let them be and not to hurt them or you could be charged with something....I would personally shoot the guy and then bury them. No one would know.

Back to the guns another point that I forgot to make was that yes I am From America( first time anyone has thought otherwise) Cleveland to be exact but I always that Self defense is the necessary amount of force to stop an attack. Ex...a guy comes at you with fists a blazing and you shoot them that is exsesive. I could be wrong. I never really liked my law classes.

Also, Every where I go there are signs saying no guns. And really there are only three places I could carry a gun if I had my concealed: weapon the sidewalk, my house and my barbershop. That is why I really never saw a need. I have no problem with it, I really believe everyone(except crazy people) have the right. It just seemed more like a hassel since in my town because you can't really take it anywhere.

Remember Ohio just adopted this law...That could be why I am not very well informed on it.

[edit on 11-8-2005 by Timcouchfanclub]




posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 04:03 PM
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Ok, I see a little more information is necessary.

Firstly, you law professor needs to recognize that the "retreat requirements" vary from state to state, but most do recognize the "castle doctrine" for your own home. This basically states that you are not required to retreat from a threat in your own home, where you would be required to do so if physically and situationally possible in a street encounter.

As for letting an intruder do what they want. well, do a Google on the Carr brothers, and see what happens when you play nice with violent criminals.

As for killing a perp and then burying them, that is a guaranteed way of getting yourself some serious jail time. If you shoot a home intruder, you're almost certainly safe, if you try and hide it, you are almost certainly in trouble. Although seeing as how you're in Cleveland, you're already in a lot of trouble, what a hell hole.

Some statistics for you - there are approximately 2 million lawful uses of firearms to prevent serious crime in the US each year, of these 97% do not result in the discharge of any weapon, i.e. bad guy sees gun, realizes that he is not dealing with a helpless victim - and runs like hell.

As for being in a situation where some guy comes at you swinging his fists - although this can, and has, killed people - you are correct in saying that YOU would not be justified in shooting him. However, a 95 pound female faced with a 300 pound ape would be. Similarly, if you were attacked by 3 or more unarmed individuals - most courts would recognize the "force disparity" rule and acquit you of perforating their nasty violent hides.

Not owning a firearm is like driving without insurance, you may never need it, but why take the chance.

I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.


[edit on 11-8-2005 by Winchester Ranger T]



posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 04:32 PM
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Winchester ranger T: I completly agree with you about the gun educational value that being able to carry a concealed brings about. Also, the great respect that the majority of holders have for their weapon and the use of it. People who may not have before now understand the power and damage that a firearm can do. It is a great safety measure.

I guess I was just looking at it in a different way...If I am walking down my street with a concealed weapon I can not go into a single store or building( except to get a haircut) unless if I leave my gun on the sidewalk which I am sure the local police would be thrilled. Then I was thinking what if a person comes up to me with a gun and I pull my gun. I am sure a gunfight will ensue. That would just be a mess all on its own.

Don't get me wrong I am completly for the concealed weapon law. I guess I am trying to do the devils advocate thing with it so I can learn more about the law. And get some reasons for carrying because it is new to my town.



posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 04:36 PM
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Originally posted by Timcouchfanclub
Then I was thinking what if a person comes up to me with a gun and I pull my gun. I am sure a gunfight will ensue. That would just be a mess all on its own.


Getting your brains blown out because you didn't have a gun to protect yourself with would be kinda messy too


In Arkansas I am not real sure about the specific laws on the books but in over 50 years I have not heard of ONE person going to jail for self defense, inside or outside the home.

But I would call the police after the fact not try to hide the body (bury), you WILL go to jail for that

[edit on 11-8-2005 by Amuk]



posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 04:41 PM
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In most places in the U.S. the police would sooner give you a medal for blowing the brains out of an intruder in your home rather then send you to jail.

I think that's how it should be.



posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 05:15 PM
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In Pennsylvania, only a police background check is required for a permit to carry concealed.

No training, no practice, no certification in gun use is required.

At least it wasn't when I got mine, in...1999, I think it was. Maybe 2000.



posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 06:22 PM
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Originally posted by Figher Master FIN
well, if you have promision then yes, but not any "big-guns" or anything, just hunting rifles, small shot-guns and hand guns... it's crazy, in America an ordinary human can carry an M-82 without the police interfiering about it...


Ha ha...no. Those damned liberals and "bleeding hearts" are banning just about anything. First it was automatics, then it was high-powered rifles. Soon, we'll have to defend ourselves against buglers with kitchen knives.

Besides, an M82 is classified as a "really big gun" here. It can blow off your head with one shot from long range. Only the military can use them.



posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 06:27 PM
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That's correct about Pennsylvania - they have very relaxed carry laws, check out www.packing.org for state by state details.

Don't worry Timcouchfanclub, you ask some very valid questions


As for entering commercial premises, once again we have to apply generalizations (a dangerous game) because of state by state variations.

For most states while it is a minor offence to carry while on a premises that serves alcoholic beverages (and would probably lose you your carry permit but not much else), if a store owner posts placards prohibiting the carriage of firearms, all they can ask you to do is leave their premises (technically you're now trespassing) and that is all that you can be charged with should they choose to involve the police.

I would never instruct anyway to ignore the law, but hey, figure it out for yourself.

For the record, my wife decided to treat herself to a new gun yesterday, a H&K USP Compact 9mm in Stainless is now a permanent household resident. As a realtor, she carries 24/7 being in an exposed occupation. for the gun savvy, she will carry in a strongside Kydex paddle holster in the 4 o'clock position with a forward cant. Carry ammo will be Ranger T 127gr +P+ or 124gr +P Gold Dot. The USPc came with hi caps which gives her 14 rounds on tap (13 + 1) - enough to deal with anything short of a Somalian riot.

Interesting side note - Suzie Lamplugh was a realtor in the UK who showed a house to a male client - they never did find her body.

For my wife, the likely outcome would be an embarassing admission as to why she lost the sale.........


[edit on 11-8-2005 by Winchester Ranger T]



posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 06:43 PM
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.. it's crazy, in America an ordinary human can carry an M-82 without the police interfiering about it...




No, a civilian cannot carry one of these little gems. And for good reason.

Nobody. NOBODY (in the civilian world) needs a gun like that. Not for personal protection (against who?! The Terminator?), not for defense, not for anything legitimate.

Nobody.

Nobody needs a .50 calibre sniper rifle.



posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 07:16 PM
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Every day and all the time I carry this:


When going to work or other major cities (within my state) I carry:



Or if my clothing won't allow a full size frame pistol to conceal properly I carry:



Now the first item there requires absolutely no kind of permit or permission to be carried. It's also probably the deadliest of all three in a close quarters situation. The laws vary by state but we can carry folding knives with a blade(sharpened part) up to 4 inches where I am. That one is 3 1/2.

The other two require a safety course, written and proficiency testing, Background check by the local police, approval from the first selectman (mayor), 2 sets of fingerprints (one for the FBI the other for the Department of Public Safety). Now wait up to 8 weeks for everyone to make sure you're not insane or a criminal. Now go to DPS and fill out another form and have your picture taken (digitally) and that's it. You now get your 5 year permit to carry a handgun concealed.
If someone were to see a gun on you while reaching up for a pound of coffee at the supermarket, you could lose your permit---forever.
If you ever take your gun out in public without justifiable cause you lose your permit---forever. If you shoot a guy coming at you with a butcher knife with clear intent to kill you, you get to face his family in civil court where they will sue you for millions and probably win.
Welcome to liberal America.


Nobody needs a .50 calibre sniper rifle.



Not true. Extreme long range target competition has gotten more popular as of late (2000 yards and more).

[edit on 11-8-2005 by Fry2]



posted on Aug, 12 2005 @ 02:28 PM
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Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T

Originally posted by Timcouchfanclub

I have a question for those of you that carry a concealed. Why? Don't get m wrong I like guns and I really have no problem with people carrying them but it just seems pointless unless you are a Body Guard or a Farmer. It is very limited where you can take them anymore and lets say if someone comes up to you with a knife and you shoot them. Your going to go to Jail. Especially if you fire the thing off in a residential area. I just feel that there is to many limitations to make it worthwhile. Just curious on what some of the reasons where.


If someone attacks you with a knife and you use your weapon to kill them, we call that lawful self defence in the US, in the UK you would be going to jail no matter what you used to defend yourself. If anyone can cite a single case where a weapon of any kind was used to kill someone in self defence in that emasculated nation I will concede the point.

Here in Arizona there have been several recent cases of store owners and citizens using handguns to kill attackers, and none of them has gone to jail. The biggest risk is a civil suit, and the smart gun owner takes out insurance with the NRA to protect against this.

I carry - therefore I am.

Molon Labe.

[edit on 11-8-2005 by Winchester Ranger T]


Yet again Winchester with the mis-information. Why do you comment when you clearly don't know? - In UK we have similar self-defence law. You can hurt and kill people if the perceived threat warrants it.

Most legal gun owners will choose a bat etc over a gun - but if you can unlock the cabinet, load it etc and the threat warrants it (unlikely to be 100% certain!) you CAN shoot.

I wouldn't presume to comment on the fiearms laws in, say, Alabama as I don't know - when was the last time you were in UK?



posted on Aug, 12 2005 @ 02:42 PM
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Just to let you all know the streets are safe. My desert Eagle came in last night.(One hell of a concealed weapon). And I am 5-0 in gunfights already.



posted on Aug, 12 2005 @ 03:00 PM
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In the Netherlands, when you use a gun on anyone, perp or inocent, you will probably suffer the same faith, PRISON, since you are only supposed to use the gun for target practice, people don't count under any circumstances.

If they break in your home and break their leg on something you left on the floor, you more than likely will get SUED for letting them allow to get hurt on your premises.


I tried getting a .22LR rifle in the US, I had my citizenship pending, and the FBI denied me, more than likely due to the fact I wasn't a citizen yet...although I was married, perhaps this is Iowa law but I dunno, I was pretty bummed, I probably would buy it withtout a question asked in Tennesse or something...



posted on Aug, 12 2005 @ 03:38 PM
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Attn Winchester.

Your concession is awaited:

Man killed burglar in self defence

news.bbc.co.uk...


news.bbc.co.uk...

news.bbc.co.uk...

Shot thief jailed for seven years

news.bbc.co.uk...

There's also the guy, after Tony Martin, who shot & killed a drunk who was banging on his door. The Householder was in his 70's and shot the guy through the door - acquitted. Can't find that link at present.

Perhaps not as emasculated as you'd have everyone believe eh?



posted on Aug, 12 2005 @ 03:53 PM
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Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo

I tried getting a .22LR rifle in the US, I had my citizenship pending, and the FBI denied me, more than likely due to the fact I wasn't a citizen yet...although I was married, perhaps this is Iowa law but I dunno, I was pretty bummed, I probably would buy it withtout a question asked in Tennesse or something...


Weird, yeah.

I wasn't a citizen either, when I got my permit to carry, in Pennsylvania.

(I'm still not a citizen, but that's not the point).

Is Iowa a "will issue" state?

Ah, here you go. Scroll down to "types of permit available".

Iowa info



posted on Aug, 12 2005 @ 08:47 PM
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Weird. Never knew anyone where I was that was turned down for a weapon (in Iowa). Probably did help that I personally knew about half of the police station (played paintball with them) though.



posted on Aug, 12 2005 @ 11:18 PM
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I could have appealed it, but I was like: What the hell, Who dares to argue with the FBI...screw it


I was quite bummed though, so next time i'll let my wife buy the weapons



posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 10:21 PM
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Anyone apart from those above got example - Australia for instance?

I couldn't understand it - .303 is Darwin shops & have-a-go ranges in Adelaide but a ban in other states? Is this correct?



posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 10:41 PM
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.

[edit on 13-8-2005 by Winchester Ranger T]



posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 11:01 PM
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.

[edit on 13-8-2005 by Winchester Ranger T]




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