UK Firearms Policy

Posted for the benefit of Americans (mainly) who keep posting rubbish like 'Guns are banned in UK' etc etc. Why comment if you clearly have no experience or facts to go on?

In the UK:

Shotguns are available to all unless police can show good reason why one shouldn't be held. Semi's with capacity over 2+1 are on Firearms Certs.

Fireams (of any calibre) are allowed but subject to checks and proof of 'good reason' (usually land access)

Semi-autos are allowed only in .22RF - no full auto.

No pistols (except the odd deer hunter), no assault rifles (only 'straight-pull' conversions)

Airguns over 12ft/lb have to be on firearm certificate

Link to London Police firearms team

www.met.police.uk...

I think for a small island the laws are about right.

We don't give guns to kids, crims, loonies etc but if you want to shoot in the UK you can.

So please stop with the mis-information - you clearly don't know what you're talking about

I agree, the laws are acceptable. Its one of the reasons why our gun crime is nothing compared to what the Americans have. Although I would love my own arsenal of weapons, I know there are people out there who simply can't be trusted with guns so Im happy not to have them.

Besides, pussies use guns, real men fight with their fists. Thats why us Brits win wars, cos we're bloody hard!

Yes, you have less gun crimes, but crime overall is higher per capita than the US.

So, enslaved, let me get this right....You are happy to not have guns, because the criminals do not wish to obey laws or have morals? I am confused.

Please, can you show me one law that has PREVENTED a crime? Laws are for establishing appropriate punishment against those that would bear ill will against their fellow citizens. You are not supposed to go faster than the posted speed limit....yet we all do it, right? Murder is illegal in every society, yet murder happens daily in every society. Law doesn't stop you, but it will punish you.

Here in America, if someone is in my home or on my property (and in now Florida, anytime anywhere), with intent to do me or mine harm IN MY OPINION...then I have the Constitutional RIGHT (read: Law) to protect mine and myself with the most effective means available, until the threat is no longer. If that means includes a firearm, then GREAT! That means I don't get all that icky bad guy crap all over me.

A little Google research ( capmag.com... ... www.mcsm.org... ) shows, that until the first anti-gun laws passed in England after the turn of the last century, overall crime was rather insignificant....but began to visibly rise, then skyrocket, as more and more anti-gun and weapons laws were passed by Parliament.

You Brits keep on thinking you live safely out of harms way......I'll keep my .45 by my bed and in my truck.

Enslaved?
Yeah ok, what ever ______ I'll be happy with out the need for a .50 cal rifle tucked away under my bed.
PS, I take it you are saying scotland has very low crime rate since you failed and your links failed to comment on that too.



Mod Edit: removed part of a personal attack, this is not the way to have a discussion.


[edit on 10-8-2005 by UM_Gazz]

With respect Umm gazz, he insulted PERSONALLY everyone in the UK and every UK citizen.
If you dont choose to act on this then fine, thats your choice your the mod, but I want to make that fact known.

[edit on 26/02/2005 by devilwasp]

You have voted Army for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Great post and interesting links. I especially liked this part:

The English government has effectively abolished the right of Englishmen, confirmed in their 1689 Bill of Rights, to "have arms for their defence," insisting upon a monopoly of force it can succeed in imposing only on law-abiding citizens. It has come perilously close to depriving its people of the ability to protect themselves at all, and the result is a more, not less, dangerous society. Despite the English tendency to decry America's "vigilante values," English policy makers would do well to consider a return to these crucial common law values, which stood them so well in the past.

from the second link.

Very thought provoking stuff. I'll have to look into this a little more I think.

BTW, one thing you forget is.
Ever firearm user gets the "rules of engagement" booklet which alreadu says you can engage anyone who threatens or appears to be threatening you or your fellow citizens.
Hardly defenceless...

Yes, you have less gun crimes, but crime overall is higher per capita than the US.

And how do you get that conclusion?
We don't have the freedom of fire arms that the US has. OK, some get illegal firearms to use for illegal purposes, but over all ,most use them for sport, and who are affiliated to some kind of shooting club.

I myself own a shot gun. I have a license, but it is subjected to scrutiny from the relevant authorities each year.

If someone broke into my house and threatened me, then i would not get away with shooting them. Smashing their skull in with a 2 by 4 maybe, but not shooting them.

The US has a higher rate of gun related crime than the UK. FACT.....
It also has a higher rate of crime than the UK. FACT.....

Common sense tells you that it has to because its a larger country than the UK with a lot more relaxed laws than we have.

Devilwasp..Oh?...
* In 1994 an English homeowner, armed with a toy gun, managed to detain two burglars who had broken into his house while he called the police. When the officers arrived, they arrested the homeowner for using an imitation gun to threaten or intimidate. In a similar incident the following year, when an elderly woman fired a toy cap pistol to drive off a group of youths who were threatening her, she was arrested for putting someone in fear. Now the police are pressing Parliament to make imitation guns illegal.

* In 1999 Tony Martin, a 55-year-old Norfolk farmer living alone in a shabby farmhouse, awakened to the sound of breaking glass as two burglars, both with long criminal records, burst into his home. He had been robbed six times before, and his village, like 70 percent of rural English communities, had no police presence. He sneaked downstairs with a shotgun and shot at the intruders. Martin received life in prison for killing one burglar, 10 years for wounding the second, and a year for having an unregistered shotgun. The wounded burglar, having served 18 months of a three-year sentence, is now free and has been granted �5,000 of legal assistance to sue Martin. The failure of English policy to produce a safer society is clear, but what of British jibes about "America's vigilante values" and our much higher murder rate?

So much for defending house and home in Britain. Recall also, the hundreds of thousands of private weapons donated to British citizens under lend lease during WWII, by us "cowboys".

Bikereddie...
Not my conclusion. Read up on the hometown news:
Telegraph. UK

I've no need to lie about things, or make up stats. The truth is easier to produce and verify.

Originally posted by Army


Recall also, the hundreds of thousands of private weapons donated to British citizens under lend lease during WWII, by us "cowboys".

It's not forgotten, mate.

Bad Examples you used to make your case:

Tony Martin was backward, used an illegal shotgun, booby-trapped his house, no evidence of warning shot, shot perp who was exiting property - under our self-defence laws courts had no choice!

Many accounts of people shooting burglars (dead!) and not being prosecuted in UK.

The fear with a firearm law is normally used by the courts for Bankrobbers - not aware of a householder who's been prosecuted, let alone convicted for this.

Agree it's stupid people were arrested in these circumstances. Overall we are lacking some Householders' rights but Guns are serarate factor.

Originally posted by Army
Devilwasp..Oh?...
* In 1994 an English homeowner, armed with a toy gun, managed to detain two burglars who had broken into his house while he called the police. When the officers arrived, they arrested the homeowner for using an imitation gun to threaten or intimidate. In a similar incident the following year, when an elderly woman fired a toy cap pistol to drive off a group of youths who were threatening her, she was arrested for putting someone in fear. Now the police are pressing Parliament to make imitation guns illegal.

* In 1999 Tony Martin, a 55-year-old Norfolk farmer living alone in a shabby farmhouse, awakened to the sound of breaking glass as two burglars, both with long criminal records, burst into his home. He had been robbed six times before, and his village, like 70 percent of rural English communities, had no police presence. He sneaked downstairs with a shotgun and shot at the intruders. Martin received life in prison for killing one burglar, 10 years for wounding the second, and a year for having an unregistered shotgun. The wounded burglar, having served 18 months of a three-year sentence, is now free and has been granted �5,000 of legal assistance to sue Martin. The failure of English policy to produce a safer society is clear, but what of British jibes about "America's vigilante values" and our much higher murder rate?

I take it your still missing the point that england and the UK are not the same.
A) Those 2 examples above are not in accordance with the ROE.
B) The first one is holding someone prisnor, he had no right to do so.
C) The old lady was using a cap gun to scare people off, If it had been a real gun firing a round in the air CAN and WILL kill someone, how? Because that bullet will go right up and come right back down.
D) The man killed a person, since when is that justifiable, thats over kill.
One shout of "get out I have a shot gun" and if they still threatened him he would have got away with it.
E) He used an illegal shotgun to kill someone, what do you expect the police are going to say about that crime "oh its ok we'll just ignore that."

So much for defending house and home in Britain. Recall also, the hundreds of thousands of private weapons donated to British citizens under lend lease during WWII, by us "cowboys".

Yeah during WW2 we where threatened with invasion, we are not now.
You can defend yourself and your home, if you can prove it was necessary to use that ammount of force.
If a man runs at you with a knife, you can kill him.
If a man shouts at you , you cant kill him.
How difficult is it to understand that?

I always find this argument amusing.

First off, I couldn't care less if Americans were allowed to own attillary, tanks, grenade launchers, whatever. That's great. Good for you. Blow the hell out each other all you want from now until eternity if that's what you want, why should I care?

The simple fact is that you have an established gun culture. You couldn't get rid of it even if you wanted to. You're stuck with it and you have to live with it.

Have fun with it by all means.

What you don't understand is that we neither want nor need guns. We view them exactly as they are, an instrument designed for one thing and one thing only; Killing. It's not sexy, it's not cool. It's an instrument of death and death only. That's all it's designed for. I'm glad we have the sense not glorify such an abhorrent thing.

What we do find disturbing is the almost sexual element Americans apply to the gun. Don't give us any of the "defend our home n land" crap. We were using guns and the preceding death implements before America was even born.

I know for a fact that all anyone breaking into my house or accosting me in the street has is a knife. I have a baseball bat in the house which has a larger reach than a knife. In the street I have arms, and legs to run so a knife can't reach me. You can't outrun a gun.

Where I live there is lots of street violence by mindless idiots, but I can still walk outside knowing that anyone that wants to attack me will still have to do it face to face.

I worked In New York State for four months back in '99, and I can tell you that knowing anyone around me could have had a gun is the most unsafe I have ever felt in my entire life.

The defending against the government argument is also mute; It's also the most amusing argument. Those that are always the most vocal about "support the troops" as people doing a job are also those that advocate most strongly the need to have guns to fend off the very troops they support. Of course, as soon as their particular brand of whatever politics is jepordized those same troops turn into mindless robots intent in destroying the homeland at any cost. It's laughable really.

The troops are still people. You want change. If you convince the people, you convince the troops. No guns are needed.


But hey, Keep on stroking your argument killing phallus. We'll still be here when you start stoking your brains.


BTW, the thing about the equivalent crime rates is just ridiculous. Check the type of crime etc ffs..


[edit on 10-8-2005 by kegs]

Originally posted by Army
Bikereddie...
Not my conclusion. Read up on the hometown news:
Telegraph. UK

I've no need to lie about things, or make up stats. The truth is easier to produce and verify.

The link you gave says nothing to the fact about the UK having a higher crime rate than the US.
It does give facts about localized crime in different areas within the UK.

I never said you lied about anything, but i do think you miss read the facts of the link you kindly posted.

Originally posted by Army
Yes, you have less gun crimes, but crime overall is higher per capita than the US.

So, enslaved, let me get this right....You are happy to not have guns, because the criminals do not wish to obey laws or have morals? I am confused.

Please, can you show me one law that has PREVENTED a crime? Laws are for establishing appropriate punishment against those that would bear ill will against their fellow citizens. You are not supposed to go faster than the posted speed limit....yet we all do it, right? Murder is illegal in every society, yet murder happens daily in every society. Law doesn't stop you, but it will punish you.

Here in America, if someone is in my home or on my property (and in now Florida, anytime anywhere), with intent to do me or mine harm IN MY OPINION...then I have the Constitutional RIGHT (read: Law) to protect mine and myself with the most effective means available, until the threat is no longer. If that means includes a firearm, then GREAT! That means I don't get all that icky bad guy crap all over me.

A little Google research ( capmag.com... ... www.mcsm.org... ) shows, that until the first anti-gun laws passed in England after the turn of the last century, overall crime was rather insignificant....but began to visibly rise, then skyrocket, as more and more anti-gun and weapons laws were passed by Parliament.

You Brits keep on thinking you live safely out of harms way......I'll keep my .45 by my bed and in my truck.

But thats the thing I don't need a .45 under my pillow. I don't live in constant paranoia that some heavily armed burgler is going to break into my house and steal my stuff. I'd be interested, how many people do you know that have ever had to fend for their lives and have been saved because they have a gun?

Your right the law is there to prevent crime and btw it is legal for you to do whatever you like to a burglar if he comes up the stairs towards your bedroom in England. I too have that right. That was front page news in the papers a few months ago. I see your point, but the fact remains, I am happy knowing that it is difficult for people to get hold of firearms in this country and yes it is a case of a few people spoiling it for everyone else, but what you have to understand is that I can actually go and get a shotgun if I want. I am eligable to own a weapon in England but I don't because it won't make me any safer.

One of the statistics I read about gun ownership in america is that you are more likely to kill a member of your family that a burglar

www.jointogether.org...

Yes its a left leaning site before you start but that statistic is prevelant througout the internet. Id be interested in your opinion. I eagerly await your reply.

Originally posted by devilwasp
Enslaved?
Yeah ok, what ever ______ I'll be happy with out the need for a .50 cal rifle tucked away under my bed.
PS, I take it you are saying scotland has very low crime rate since you failed and your links failed to comment on that too.



Mod Edit: removed part of a personal attack, this is not the way to have a discussion.


[edit on 10-8-2005 by UM_Gazz]

With respect Umm gazz, he insulted PERSONALLY everyone in the UK and every UK citizen.
If you dont choose to act on this then fine, thats your choice your the mod, but I want to make that fact known.

[edit on 26/02/2005 by devilwasp]

Im sorry, but are you refering to me? I fail to see how I insulted everyone in Britain? Oh and btw, I was joking about the fist fighting thing, it was a little pun.

Originally posted by enslaved83
Im sorry, but are you refering to me? I fail to see how I insulted everyone in Britain? Oh and btw, I was joking about the fist fighting thing, it was a little pun.

Never mind mate....its my fault...this will teach me a lesson to not jump into things.

UM_Gazz, Could you delete my post?

Enslaved, yes that is a terribly left leaning site, which uses horribly skewed statistics in order to feed its agenda.

The family member danger is an out-right falsehood, purported by anti-freedom types to scare those that are less informed about firearms in American society. They take small samples of reality, and extort them to fit theories.

The family member bit, came from police figures that showed that drug dealers, drug users, people who are intent to commit crimes, and gang members, have a tendancy to argue among themselves. The majority of these bottom-dwellers being related (cousin, uncle, brother, father, mother, aunt, nephew niece) by blood or marriage. When two gang members get into a fight, they tend to want to kill each other. When drug deals go bad, users and dealers tend to get violent. The result, is these "family" members killing each other, often with firearms.

Gun-ban zealots leave out the criminal activity and history of these Families, in order to make you think that I am going to shoot my wife at any moment now, just because I have a gun.

I know folks over there have been killed with Cricket bats, but does that make criminals of all Cricket players? Should Cricket fields be closed? Should the game be out-lawed? No, of course not, for the bat has no mind of its own, nor any means to animate by its own volition. A person must undertake the purpose to use the bat to kill. It is the very same with firearms.

You also ask if I know of anyone that has used a gun in defense of their life.

Yes. My wife, and myself, on seperate occasions.

My wife is a property manager for a very large corporate. Her work sometimes encompasses evictions. While serving eviction papers to a family(!) of known drug dealers(!) and gang members(!), she was threatened with death. Later that evening, while resting in bed with our 1.5 year old daughter, a heavy plant stand was thrown through the window. Cursing and other threatening epitaths followed, with more debris being thrown into the house. The 4 gang members split up, with 2 going to the front door and the other two clearing the glass from the window in order to climb inside.....

.....only to be confronted by my lovely wife, and her personal 12gauge riot style shotgun. She loudly told them to get the [blankety] out of here, or she will blow their heads off. Police found the 4 gang members running down the street, 6 blocks away. She was not molested nor threatened again while at that property.


I have used my .45 (semi-auto 1911) three times in fear for my life, and uncountable times to dispatch poisonous snakes and other vermin, including a coyote with near terminal Rabies ( I long range varmint hunt a lot, so I encounter dangerous vermin rather often). Of the three times I have pointed my weapon at bad guys, two went to jail, and one to the hospital where he later died from injuries. I'm not proud of that, but I am very happy that I followed the law and human morals that left me alive and well to go home again. My family is also glad I came home that day.

Army.

I see what your saying about the sight. Indeed I realise it is left leaning! But the point I was trying to put accross is that sometimes a gun doesn't necessarily make those in your house safer.

I was also trying to put accross the point that a lot of gun advocates who say they need guns for their protection actually don't! They have probably never been in a threatening situation in their life!

However, from you post, I can see that you talk the talk because you have indeed walked the walk! (To quote John Wayne I think) Im glad your wife was able to fend off the burglars and Im glad you were able to protect yourself.

It is important to defend oneself, indeed I keep a bat in the house for burglar bashing. I just wonder, is a society any safer because it has access to large ammounts of lethal weapons? Attacking someone with a knife/bat is very different to doing it with a gun. To do it with a gun is easier ( I use the term liberaly, attacking someone is never easy), you are pysically detached from the killing but to do it with a knife is harder, people are less likely to do it.

What do you think?

As an Englishman of 27 years, I have never fired a gun (proper one anyway), nor have I ever been attacked with one. I cant remember if there has ever been a shooting in my town (population 80k+), to my knowledge there has never been one. I dont want or need a gun thanks.

squarepusher, do you have any hobbies? If so, whatever it is, I can make it seem quite dangerous. It's all a matter of perspective.

Remember too, that our societal make-up is different. Your history is legend with Kings and Queens, Princes and Princesses, all who used to have full control over their subjects lives (your Houses aren't much changed from that).....which was a big reason for our little "disagreement" we all had back in 1776, we didn't like being told what to do. We have kept that attitude, and expanded on it as individuals in a land of representative government.

We long ago decided that keeping and bearing arms for personal and societal protection, is a God given right (same as freedom of press, speach, religion, to gather, and to voice displeasure with the government) for every free American...and all people, really...and made sure that is was a firm part of our Constitution. As individuals, we relish our personal independance guaranteed by wise men who founded the good 'ol USA.

Have a gun, or not, that is your choice. Mine is to be prepared, whether I ever use it or not. I shoot varmints from very long ranges (I start at 400m for the close ones) with rifles I built specially for this type of hunting. I always carry a handgun with me when I do, for where there are ground squirrels (my favorite varmint target), there are rattlesnakes......I hate rattlesnakes.

But vermin can walk on two legs also, and they are the most dangerous of all. My wife was safe that night, thanks to her shotgun, and the law that says she can use it with her own discretion. There was no time to call the Police, as the bad guys were coming in the window only moments after they broke it. The Police still took almost 3 minutes to respond after she did call 911 (our national emergency connection to the Police and Fire officials). No doubt about it, her gun saved her and my daughters' lives.

BTW, our Supreme Court has stated that the Police have NO obligation for the safety of individuals, but society at large. That leaves it up to the citizen to keep himself and his family protected from bad guys.....and lousy rattlesnakes

I dont dislike guns or anything, and I know that the vast majority of Americans who have guns use them responsibly and I respect that. If I lived in America, I would probably have one (or a nice selection).

I also dont think for one second that we're any better (i.e more civilised etc etc) for not having guns. As you said, Army, Americans are, quite rightly proud of their independance and history. The right to bear arms is an important part of that, and one of the things I admire about America.

But here in GB, the majority of people just dont want them, there is no gun culture here, never really has been.

Oh and we dont even have much to hunt here either, there are 2 or 3 squirrels who live in an oak tree in my garden, but I like them! Maybe if the pigeon population continues to increase us Brits will start packing heat but other than that we're just happy sipping tea and talking about the weather (and beating the Aussies at cricket, pity its rained off at the moment).