Vietnam air war! (NEW INFO!!! SEEKING FOR THE TRUHT!!!)

www.acepilots.com...

Now.. what im intressed in is full aa (air to air..) loses of all sides, (Notrh, south, US..) and not just shot down fighter planes.. I have only managed to find these figures about MIGs vs F-4, but we know that "Quan Chung Khong Quan" (Vietnamese People's Air Force, VPAF) fighter pilots did shot down many more planes, Attack / fighter-bombers / even couple B-52s (SAM:s had plenty B-52s..) / Recce drones and planes / couple helicopters.. etc..

So, does anyone has any REAL info?
Does anybody have access to "orginal" US or NVAF documents or alike? Can somebody translate info from Vietnamese pages?

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Obsolete MIG-17 of NVAF (Yeah obsolete even in 1960s).
MIG-17 had heavy CANNON armament of 2x23mm and 1x37mm CANNONS.

*note*

Ok! We can include the helicopters also! I just want to learn more facts about air war in Nam.

Both will do In-country and North.

I would love to hear about all sides, yes even Yankee side.. if people just stick with the truht..

I dont want to hear any crap about claims that put kill ration over to 1:1 as what i have heard is that the actual kill ratio was something like 3:1 if all AA kill were counted and still 1,25:1 if only "AAM carrying fighter vs AAM carrying fighter" were counted.. but still in favor for the NVAF and the AAA and SAM:s plenty success in NVA side (between 1800-2000 "kills" or even more..), and US AAA and SAM:s had none or just 1-4 aicraft attacking ships on "gun line" or in "Yankee station"..

With aircraft it really isnt matter of even downing them, damaging them beyond repair is as good result.

Or interception, forcing the enemy attack aircraft to abort mission.. by making it return to the base or forcing it to drops its bombs unaimed so that it can take effective evasive action against fighter or SAM attack.. this method is even better as nobody has to die.. if the evasion is successful..

[Edited on 8-9-2003 by FULCRUM]

Some videos:

1) "A 1972 Air Force documentary focusing on the Search And Rescue (SAR) efforts to recover a downed pilot. Mixes simulated combat footage with the real deal. This installment features an H-53, HC-130, A-1, and refueling pix."

www.secretvietnamwar.com...

2) "Same planes as the previous clip plus an OV-10 and a growling mini-gun spraying the jungle from the door gunner's perch."

www.secretvietnamwar.com...

3) "A continuation of Part 2."

www.secretvietnamwar.com...

Not quite what im looking for, but close enough..

In the early days, the U.S. lost an aircraft every other month. By 1967, when Operation Rolling Thunder was pounding North Vietnam with the heaviest aerial bombardment since World War II, the loss rate could reach ten planes per day.

Business as usual was the grim day of May 19, 1967, which saw: An Air Force A-1E Skyraider shot down over Laos by anti-aircraft fire (pilot killed), two Navy F-4B Phantoms and an A-6A Intruder from the carrier Kitty Hawk destroyed over North Vietnam by SA-2 surface-to-air missiles (aircrew taken prisoner), a Marine F-8E Crusader hit north of the Demilitarized Zone (pilot killed), another Navy F-8E and an F-8C brought down by missiles and gunfire in the North (pilots taken prisoner), and a Navy RA-5C Vigilante that was seen on fire during a photo run over Hanoi (aircrew died in captivity).

...

Here is aces list:

wio.ru...

Operation Rolling Thunder loses:

"Rolling Thunder continued from 1965 to 1968. In all, the US flies 304,000 fighter-bomber sorties and 2,380 B-52 sorties over North Vietnam, losing 922 aircraft and dropping 634,000 tons of bombs."

Causes from those 922.. im still looking.

During 11 days of Linebacker 2:

"Surface-to-air missiles, described as flying telephone poles, brought down 19 Air Force aircraft, including 15 BUFFs, with 35 airmen being killed and 39 taken as prisoners of war."

But i have no details for loses to AAA and MIGs..

(North?) Vietnam total:

"The United States lost 2,400 jet aircraft (more than 1,800 to enemy action) along with some 2,000 pilots and crewmen. Vietnam Era jets cost up to 9 million dollars apiece. Just counting aircraft destroyed and using 5 milion dollars apiece as an average figure this comes to a staggering 12 billion dollars."

But lets remember.. this was a 10 years long war for the US.. and much longer for Vietnamise.. they "started" it back in 1945.. and even before that they had been fighting, against French and Japanese..

Here is some kind of list of US air-to-air loses:

home.sprynet.com...

And..

Here for US air-to-air victories:

home.sprynet.com...

And here again with no mention about the causes,

US losses of aircraft in combat over NORTH Vietnam:

USAF
F-105 -> 282
F-4 -> 192
F-100 -> 16
F-102 -> 1
F-104 -> 4
F-111 -> 6
RF=101 -> 27
RF-4 -> 37
B-52 -> 17
C-130 -> 2
EB-66 -> 4
B-57 -> 5
RC-47 -> 1
A=1 -> 18
T-28 -> 1
O-1/2 -> 5

USN
A-4 -> 173
A-6 ->52
F-4 -> 73
A-7 -> 38
RF-4 -> 1
F/RF-8 -> 18
A-3 -> 1
RA-5 -> 21
A-1 -> 43

Total: 1083? doesnt seem right to me..

Here is about S-75 Dvina missile system in Vietnams defence.. also known as SA-2 Guideline..

www.milparade.com...

Intresting.. but maybe too optimistic..

Yet a another good find:

skyraider.org...

"We were receiving several Mig calls but none of us were familiar with the reference point, CRAB, used by the radar guys. After listening to the tape someone reports that the Mig position is some 15 Miles north of us. Anyway, shortly thereafter, people started yelling "Migs!" and Jolly 71 disappeared in smoke. King 03 dropped his tanks and headed west into the weeds and the now disconnected refueling Jolly 19 did the same. Apparently two Migs made one pass through the holding helicopterformation and escaped to the North. Jolly 72 was in loose trail with Jolly 71 when the missile and Mig passed them on the right and hit Jolly 71."

...
Here more BS:

Aircraft Lost:

- AAA Fire: 1,580 (yeah right.. like somebody would belive this..)
- Air Combat: 76 (and 1580 to AAA?)
- SAM's: 196 (...BS!...)
- Total Combat Losses: 1,852
- Total Accidental Losses: 1,486
- Total Aircraft Losses: 3,338
- Helicopters Lost in Combat: 2,076
- Helicopters Lost to Accidents: 2,566
- Total Helicopters Lost: 4,642

Im getting tired of looking for these "facts", as there seems to be nothing desent about these loses/victories in the net.. or in any of my books..

Seems like everybody is just bashing the MIGs and SAMs, but still saying that US lost 1500 to AAA.. that was mostly "optical and manualy controlled"..

And i really cant find even single good page about whole damn air war..

No, that seems about right.

Remember there was a break of a few years between Rolling Thunder 1 and 2 (I think those are the right numbers) where there was no air combat and allowed the NVAF to regroup and retrain.

Cheers

I think before topgun, Us pilots killed at a 2-1 ratio.

Top Gun the movie or Top Gun the school?

It’s always been very difficult to get “global” figures: although it’s not too hard to get “fixed-wing” or “helicopter” or “ Phantom., B52 etc.” or “one branch of the Armed Forces” figures as here:
Giving a total of 441 helicopter losses but just for the Marine Corps
www.popasmoke.com...
This: www.vhpa.org...
In Adobe: will give you “Total helicopters destroyed in the Vietnam War was 5,086 out of 11,827“
And, one has to remember just how long the total campaign lasted and how notoriously inaccurate air-to-air “kill” claims traditionally are.
Then there are the training losses, accidents, wear and tear etc. etc. and conflicting claims (e.g. the US tends to insist that no B52’s were ever shot down by enemy aircraft whereas the Vietnamese claim the opposite.
There are a number of good books available where the authors have done all the necessary cut and paste work. Here’s one: Vietnam Air Losses: USAF, Navy, and Marine Corps Fixed-Wing Aircraft Losses in SE Asia 1961-1973
by Authors: Chris Hobson
Released: 25 February, 2002
ISBN: 1857801156
Paperback

Thanks Estragon!

Good find that link about US MARINE LOSES..

But i did allready knew that US lost "huge" numbers of helicopters to small arms, aaa and some even to SA-7 MANPADS.. In south.

What i am really looking here for is the loses of ALL US SERVICES and NOTRH VIETNAM, during Roling thunder (I & II?) and Linebacker (I & II) campaings against the NORTH. And the causes of the loses..

And i am also aware that there were a "bombing halt" that lasted couple of years.. (How stupid is that?) (68-72?)

Also it would be nice to have some info about air combat between SOUTH and NORTH.. as there surely where those also..

As the South had one of the largest army/navy/airforce in the world..

I've quite often done research in this area, Fulcrum and I thinky you'll have to browse one of the books to get it all in one piece.
On the South Viets, try a search on VNAF: the actual title: and a little web-site here with some statistics.
vnaf.net...

Now that was what i call a GOOD POST, again!

There were some very good info/pics on those pages..

Do you happen to have any same kind info on NVAF?

That would really make my day.. also im intressed in Notrh Korean armed forces in general, but there seems very little of any info (reliable info..) on that ONLINE.

them figures seam a bit strange... i woulda thought mroe were lost to air 2 air than that...

oh well what do i know about dogfights...

Well i think the same way, that there should be more casualities in AA combat..

But like i said: reliable info i lacking.. (ONLINE..) and that is a shame.. But one thing is sure: NVAF did shoot down more planes in AA combat than it lost.. So i rate US claims for 76 lost and 200 downed as a lies. As that really cant be the truht..

As during 1972 201 air-to-air combats took place, in which US shot down 48 or 54 NVAF aircraft and lost 90, including 74 F-4 and 2 RF-4C..

[Edited on 7-9-2003 by FULCRUM]

But I can't help but view Viet Nam as more of a helicopter war than a fixed-wing war. The choppers are what were making the big difference. And the highest mortality rates (in air campaigns) lie with the chopper pilots.

[Edited on 1-9-2003 by Valhall]

Valhall, yes we know this, but what we are looking here is info about air-to-air combats between US planes and NVAF MIGs that were flow by extremely skilled pilots..

And btw helicopters were used as "trucks and apc:s" so it really isnt a suprpice that so many were lost..

Helicopters are very easy target as they fly between 150-250km/h only (100-150mph) so anykind of AD weapon can shoot them down with ease if they are in range..

About Rolling Thunder:
www.globalsecurity.org...

About Linebacker I:
www.globalsecurity.org...

[Edited on 1-9-2003 by FULCRUM]

"Overall Air Force losses included fifteen B-52s, two F-4s, two F-111s, and one HH-53 search and rescue helicopter. Navy losses included two A-7s, two A-6s, one RA-5, and one F-4. Seventeen of these losses were attributed to SA-2 missiles, three to daytime MiG attacks, three to antiaircraft artillery, and three to unknown causes."

www.globalsecurity.org...

This was during 11/12 days long Linebacker-II, only really succesful US air action against the north..

Other and more reliable sources claim that there were 8 air-to-air combats during 11 day Linebacker-II and that NVAF shot down 7 US aircraft (including 4 F-4 and one RA-5C) and lost 3 MIG-21s.

"In each engagement the NVAF technique was a stern attack and hard break."

...

And also:

"Between 1966 and 1972 US aircraft shot down a total of 54 MIG-21s. In same period MIG-21s shot down 103 F-4s and many other aircraft."

mig-21 ruled the sky
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You mean:

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MiG-21 ruled the skies!!! (NVAF MIG-21PF)

www.mig-21.de...



Note the KILL MARKINGS on this baby.. 14 stars..

[Edited on 6-9-2003 by FULCRUM]

The Mig-21 actually carried copies of the sidewinder missile. The story goes that a Taiwanese F-86 fired a sidewinder at a Chinese Mig. The missile hit and got stuck into the side of the Mig. When the Mig landed the Chinese took the missile and reverse engineered it and came up with a copy.

yup the sidewinder copy is called the PL-2 / PL-3 / PL-5
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