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Today Gaza, Tomorrow Jerusalem

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posted on Aug, 9 2005 @ 08:59 AM
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Well, the Palestinians have been calling for the Israeli’s to pull out from Gaza for years now and it’s finally happening. Now the Palestinians are no longer oppressed and there will be peace on both sides, they will live happily ever after together in harmony right?

WRONG!!

The Palestinians are calling this a retreat and a war victory on their way to Jerusalem. You and I have been hearing about “oppression” and “we need a land of our own” for years now. Well, Sharon has taken an initiative to make this happen, after years of Arafat throwing every proposal back in Israel’s face. Now that the Palestinians are getting what they claimed to want, the violence should stop right? Nope.

We have been lied to, pure and simple. The Palestinians will stop at nothing until they OCCUPY Jerusalem.

Article here


“…Are Israel’s critics correct? Does the “occupation” of the West Bank and Gaza cause the Palestinians’ anti-Semitism, their suicide factories, and their terrorism? And is it true these horrors will end only when Israeli civilians and troops leave the territories?

The answer is coming soon. Starting on Aug. 15, the Israeli government will evict some 8,000 Israelis from Gaza and turn their land over to the Palestinian Authority. In addition to being a unique event in modern history (no other democracy has forcibly uprooted thousands of its own citizens of one religion from their lawful homes), it also offers a rare, live, social-science experiment.

We stand at an interpretive divide. If Israel’s critics are right, the Gaza withdrawal will improve Palestinian attitudes toward Israel, leading to an end of incitement and a steep drop in attempted violence, followed by a renewal of negotiations and a full settlement. Logic requires, after all, that if “occupation” is the problem, ending it, even partially, will lead to a solution.

But I forecast a very different outcome. Given that some 80 percent of Palestinians continue to reject Israel’s very existence, signs of Israeli weakness, such as the forthcoming Gaza withdrawal, will instead inspire heightened Palestinian irredentism. Absorbing their new gift without gratitude, Palestinians will focus on those territories Israelis have not evacuated. (This is what happened after Israeli forces fled Lebanon.) The retreat will inspire not comity but a new rejectionist exhilaration, a greater frenzy of anti-Zionist anger, and a surge in anti-Israel violence….”

Read the rest.


The Palestinians don’t want to just live in peace in Gaza. They want to destroy the Israelis and occupy Jerusalem. Nothing less will be acceptable. We will all know this truth soon enough, if the Palestinians continue terrorist attacks against Israel after the Israeli’s leave Gaza, then you will know their true agendas.


What comes after the Israeli's have been destroyed? Peace? I somehow dont think so...



[edit on 9-8-2005 by skippytjc]




posted on Aug, 9 2005 @ 09:04 AM
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My religious side says:

The Palestinians need to be driven out of Jerusalem, the mosques destroyed, and the Jewish Temple on the temple mount needs to be rebuilt...it is the prophecy.

My more secular side says:

These people need to learn to live together in peace.


I wonder what will happen.



posted on Aug, 9 2005 @ 09:05 AM
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Only in that region skippy, they want to occupy holy sites in the middle east, they want the destruction of the jewish people and probably christian's too. All in the name of a religion that is a blatant rip off of judaism and christianity but arabinised for the pagan arabs. I know this is going to offend people but truth hurts doesnt it?



posted on Aug, 9 2005 @ 09:07 AM
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Originally posted by skippytjc
. We will all know this truth soon enough, if the Palestinians continue terrorist attacks against Israel after the Israeli’s leave Gaza, then you will know their true agendas.




I agree this will be the telling point. I dont think the Palestinians will make it, it could all come unraviled and a BIG war start.



posted on Aug, 9 2005 @ 09:14 AM
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Ran across this last night and bookmarked it.
May be of some interest to this discussion:
'Gaza will remain occupied territory'


Question: Is not currently all of Israel proper deemed/called "occupied territory"?






seekerof



posted on Aug, 9 2005 @ 09:16 AM
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The article may be biased (frontpagemag) , but I have a feeling its true based on the Palestineans track record. Lets not forget Israel can take back that territory and much more if the Palestineans can't control the wild-dogs in their midst.

This is really the Palestineans "last chance" to show what kinda people they really are and if they can be civilized....Im sure they will screw it up and those settlements will be re-occupied before long.

Maximu§



posted on Aug, 9 2005 @ 09:29 AM
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May I ask, what is happening in the West Bank, are the Israeli's decreasing or increasing their occupancy?



posted on Aug, 9 2005 @ 09:30 AM
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You hit the nail on the head Maximus: Regardless of the source, this is something we will all know the truth about soon enough. This is the reckoning for the Palestinians, time to show their hand so to speak.

If peace prevails then the Palestinians have shown that they were in fact fighting for what they thought they deserved, if they continue their violence towards the Israeli's, their true agenda will be revealed.

Their motivations will be transparent to the world soon enough.



posted on Aug, 9 2005 @ 10:03 AM
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I take it my previous question is not a valid one, seeing as how it's been ignored?

Is the West bank not a point of contention or should the Palestinians be content with what thay are being given?

I was led to believe that the Palestinians agreed to share the land with the Jewish people, but the Zionist factions wanted the land only for the Jewish people, which is the reason the Palestinians decided to fight back.



posted on Aug, 9 2005 @ 10:08 AM
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Originally posted by Koka
I take it my previous question is not a valid one, seeing as how it's been ignored?

Is the West bank not a point of contention or should the Palestinians be content with what thay are being given?

I was led to believe that the Palestinians agreed to share the land with the Jewish people, but the Zionist factions wanted the land only for the Jewish people, which is the reason the Palestinians decided to fight back.


Thats the question of the century Koka. If any of us had the answer for that maybe things wouldnt be so bad over there. My guess is that BOTH sides, Palestine and Israel feel they have the right to ALL of the contested areas.

So it matters not who thinks they deserve what, as they think each should have all of it. The question here is that what is "enough" for the Paletininians to feel content. My opinion? They want it all and Palestinian terror agaisnt the Israeli's will never end until the Israeli's are gone.

And your usage of the word "zionist" tells me what side of the fence you fall on.



[edit on 9-8-2005 by skippytjc]



posted on Aug, 9 2005 @ 10:16 AM
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I use the word Zionist as that is what they are.....


Would extremist Jews be a better term?

As I see it, the general populous of both Israeli's and Palestinian's are quite capable of sharing the same land, it's the extreme wings of both parties that have caused the conflict, and as I see it, that started when the Palestinians accepted the existence of Israel, but Israel refused to recognise Palestine.

p.s. As for showing which side of the fence I lie, am I mean't to hide it, whilst you make no attempt at hiding your bias.

[edit on 9-8-2005 by Koka]



posted on Aug, 9 2005 @ 10:22 AM
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Look at this story on the home page of the web-site. I think it relates.


IT WAS A MOURNFUL MILESTONE. Last Thursday, for the first time in more than a decade, a private Israeli citizen committed an act of terrorism against Arab civilians


 



The Israeli government also scurried to head off additional violence from those ultra-Orthodox Jews insisting any pullout from the West Bank and Gaza amounted to sacrilege. Israel had deployed 20,000 troops to stop a protest near the Gaza border in July, and just days before this deadly attack, the IDF trained soldiers to prepare for assaults on Arabs perpetrated by their fellow Jews. Last Saturday, Israeli Defense Minister Sha’ul Mofaz responded to the Shfaram shootings by announcing Jewish “extremists” would be arrested and held without trial. The next day, Mofaz signed “administrative detention” orders for three young men who belonged to the same religious terrorist organization as Natan-Zada.

www.frontpagemag.com...



posted on Aug, 9 2005 @ 10:24 AM
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Originally posted by Koka
I use the word Zionist as that is what they are.....


Would extremist Jews be a better term?

As I see it, the general populous of both Israeli's and Palestinian's are quite capable of sharing the same land, it's the extreme wings of both parties that have caused the conflict, and as I see it, that started when the Palestinians accepted the existence of Israel, but Israel refused to recognise Palestine.


I made that statement because Israeli's or Pro Islraeli's dont refer to themselves as zionists.

But thats just it, you say "that started when the Palestinians accepted the existence of Israel, but Israel refused to recognise Palestine." But thats one sides opinion. To you its fact, to the pro Israeli's it garbage.

The "beauty" of this situation (Gaza pull out) is that its a great test of what the Palestinians want, regardless of what side you are on.

The entire world will know, no way of hiding it, if Gaza will apeaze Palestine. If the Palestinians continue to attack Israel's after the pull out, then their Agenda will become transparent.



posted on Aug, 9 2005 @ 10:27 AM
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Originally posted by Koka
I use the word Zionist as that is what they are.....


Would extremist Jews be a better term?



A jewish Zionist is not equal to an extremist Jew.

I'd like to suggest to you to learn about Zionism, if you want to use this term.



Originally posted by skippytjc

I made that statement because Israeli's or Pro Islraeli's dont refer to themselves as zionists.


I can't say how 'Pro Israelis' refer to.

But most of all Israelis - or Jews in general - refer themselves as Zionists, since Zionism is also defined as a movement to support the development and defense of the State of Israel.

Only a very small minority of Jews oppose Zionism on either political or religious grounds. The most radical and vocal of these is the small Neturei Karta group, which not only opposes Zionism, but also opposes the existence of the State of Israel.


[edit on 9-8-2005 by Riwka]



posted on Aug, 9 2005 @ 10:33 AM
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In recent years it seems Israel has been fighting an increasingly uphill PR battle. By unilaterally initiating the Gaza pull-out they are banking some much-needed 'moral points'. Should the Palestinians continue or accelerate their violence Israel can point to the pull-out and say, 'See, we've tried everything and it's no use'. This would give them --- in their eyes --- the license to hit back hard. I think you're right Skippy... this is one of those unique turning-points in history.



posted on Aug, 9 2005 @ 10:35 AM
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Riwka then give me a better term?

I used the term in it's antagonistic context, as I thought that was the main reason this thread was started, it shows clear bias against the Palestinian cause, and quite clearly ignores the West Bank issues, especially as Israel are looking to occupy even more land there.

..and as Seekerof pointed out in the link provided, it would appear that the Palestinians will have a great many restrictions placed on their borders and air space.

[edit on 9-8-2005 by Koka]


cjf

posted on Aug, 9 2005 @ 10:46 AM
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From the above yNet News source:



In a report presented to the United Nations, several foreign governments and international organizations, the PA foreign ministry calls on the international community to reject Israel’s claim that by withdrawing from Gaza, it would relinquish the legal responsibilities of being an occupying power….…The Fourth Geneva Convention and Hague Regulations will continue to apply (to Israel),” they said……Palestinian Foreign Minister Nasser al-Kidwa said, “Israel will continue to rule over Palestinian airspace and territorial waters, and will maintain partial control over border crossings….……Therefore, individual movement and our connections with the outside world will continue to be subject to Israeli authority,” he said.


Intersting but has been a point of contention for a long while.

Rejecting these claims (legal relinquishment of occupational responsibilities) would absolve the PA of any social and security problems which will exist and continue to hold the responsibly solely upon the shoulders of the Israeli, again. (Thus continuing a ‘legitimized insurgency’ to exist) The PA knows there will be continued violence, but how to blame another is the question? Perhaps the PA is already having difficulty not being the ‘victim’ and the PA is finding that the transition to ‘responsibility’ is not really so easy.

The Israelis are seeking, in some ways, to relinquish Gaza with ‘sanctions’. This is understandable. I would not trust the PA initially with open boarders and ‘trade’; this probably would invite even more violence by access and ease in resupply (via airspace and territorial waters). Especially since the PA obviously does not currently want to be responsible in any part for illegal acts inside the borders. However; small steps are better than no steps.

This has been a contention since at least March of 2004:



Qureia said that as part of Sharon's plan, Israel needs to withdraw from all Gaza settlements and give up control of international border crossings, ports and airports there. It also needs to hand over control to the Palestinian Authority in a coordinated way, he said.
AP article link



posted on Aug, 9 2005 @ 10:56 AM
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Originally posted by skippytjc
Well, the Palestinians have been calling for the Israeli’s to pull out from Gaza for years now and it’s finally happening. Now the Palestinians are no longer oppressed and there will be peace on both sides, they will live happily ever after together in harmony right?

WRONG!!

The Palestinians are calling this a retreat and a war victory on their way to Jerusalem. You and I have been hearing about “oppression” and “we need a land of our own” for years now. Well, Sharon has taken an initiative to make this happen, after years of Arafat throwing every proposal back in Israel’s face. Now that the Palestinians are getting what they claimed to want, the violence should stop right? Nope.

We have been lied to, pure and simple. The Palestinians will stop at nothing until they OCCUPY Jerusalem.

Article here


“…Are Israel’s critics correct? Does the “occupation” of the West Bank and Gaza cause the Palestinians’ anti-Semitism, their suicide factories, and their terrorism? And is it true these horrors will end only when Israeli civilians and troops leave the territories?

The answer is coming soon. Starting on Aug. 15, the Israeli government will evict some 8,000 Israelis from Gaza and turn their land over to the Palestinian Authority. In addition to being a unique event in modern history (no other democracy has forcibly uprooted thousands of its own citizens of one religion from their lawful homes), it also offers a rare, live, social-science experiment.

We stand at an interpretive divide. If Israel’s critics are right, the Gaza withdrawal will improve Palestinian attitudes toward Israel, leading to an end of incitement and a steep drop in attempted violence, followed by a renewal of negotiations and a full settlement. Logic requires, after all, that if “occupation” is the problem, ending it, even partially, will lead to a solution.

But I forecast a very different outcome. Given that some 80 percent of Palestinians continue to reject Israel’s very existence, signs of Israeli weakness, such as the forthcoming Gaza withdrawal, will instead inspire heightened Palestinian irredentism. Absorbing their new gift without gratitude, Palestinians will focus on those territories Israelis have not evacuated. (This is what happened after Israeli forces fled Lebanon.) The retreat will inspire not comity but a new rejectionist exhilaration, a greater frenzy of anti-Zionist anger, and a surge in anti-Israel violence….”

Read the rest.


The Palestinians don’t want to just live in peace in Gaza. They want to destroy the Israelis and occupy Jerusalem. Nothing less will be acceptable. We will all know this truth soon enough, if the Palestinians continue terrorist attacks against Israel after the Israeli’s leave Gaza, then you will know their true agendas.


What comes after the Israeli's have been destroyed? Peace? I somehow dont think so...



[edit on 9-8-2005 by skippytjc]


Jerusalem was Arabic, before the British decided that Israel should be placed there. For 2000 years, it was Arabic land.

The best solution, as it is right now, would be for Jerusalem to be a multinational city, with Arabs and Israelis living peacefully together. Since it ain't gonna happen, too much blood will be spilled from both sides.



posted on Aug, 9 2005 @ 11:06 AM
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A people or country in general is labeled "uncivilized" because they are fighting for land? and the right to be free?
Interesting if you think back to the US revolution...I imagine we were uncivilized too.
In as much as im SURE most of you would find justification in this, is it?
I mean the earth and land has been around for some 4.5 billion years, and will
be around for countless billions after were long gone. There's no question really
as to who the land belongs to given that.



posted on Aug, 9 2005 @ 11:09 AM
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Originally posted by Koka
May I ask, what is happening in the West Bank, are the Israeli's decreasing or increasing their occupancy?




Israel will evacuate the Jewish settlements Ganim, Kadim, Sa-Nur, and Homesh in northern Samaria (West Bank) and all military installations in this area.
This move will enable territorial contiguity for Palestinians in the area.

Israel's Disengagement Plan - and Selected Documents.

just think it over:




Removing the Jewish communities from the Gaza Strip and northern Samaria means:

■ 42 day-care centers, 36 kindergartens, seven elementary schools, and three high schools will be closed
■ 5,000 schoolchildren will need to find new schools
■ 38 synagogues will be dismantled
■ 166 Israeli farmers will lose their livelihoods - plus some 5,000 of their Palestinian workers
■ 48 graves in the Gush Katif Cemetery, including those of six residents murdered by terrorists, will be exhumed and moved to Israel.



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