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To those of you that dont support the prez and his war on terror/IRAQ

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posted on Aug, 10 2005 @ 06:54 PM
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He worked as a civilian through the Army as a computer networker.




posted on Aug, 10 2005 @ 06:54 PM
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Originally posted by umwolves123
WE NEED YOU ALL, just as much as you need us. please dont forget that.

Sorry we don't need you. We have 2 large oceans and a lot of nukes to protect our country. The only wars fought that had anything to do with protecting americans freedoms were The Civil War and World War II. That's the honest to god truth and you all know it. Your buddies are dieing over there to make Elites money period and you know that also in your heart. Have a nice day semper fi means nothing anymore and hasn't since 1945



posted on Aug, 10 2005 @ 06:57 PM
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Originally posted by TruthWithin
He worked as a civilian through the Army as a computer networker.


(I'm assuming this was to me
)

Then..with all due respect...I'm just not seeing the issue. Was he not somewhat responsible for gaining his own education and/or work experience during that time as a civilian?


Sorry. Off topic, somewhat - I'm just genuinely puzzled.



posted on Aug, 10 2005 @ 06:58 PM
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Originally posted by umwolves123
...for us everything boils down to one thing....not really fighting for the pres. or building schools but it really just boils down to fighting for the man next to you...honestly that's all you have over there.

And that's why I support you. Very moving words.

I just wonder, for those of us who don't support this war, what would you have us do? Lie and say we do? Somehow change our minds? Or just have our feelings and be quiet about it? That's a real question. What do you want us to do?



posted on Aug, 10 2005 @ 07:49 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by umwolves123
...for us everything boils down to one thing....not really fighting for the pres. or building schools but it really just boils down to fighting for the man next to you...honestly that's all you have over there.

And that's why I support you. Very moving words.

I just wonder, for those of us who don't support this war, what would you have us do? Lie and say we do? Somehow change our minds? Or just have our feelings and be quiet about it? That's a real question. What do you want us to do?


I know this question wasn't directed to me, but I'm jumping on it anyway as it relates to my two previous posts. My contention is that many who don't support the war, especially here on ATS, need to do a better job of making the distinction between being against the war and being against the troops. I think far too much time is spent by many anti-war activists on here ripping Bush, calling the Administration "Oil Whores", calling the war illegal and its justifications a sham, and so on. Far too little time is spent by these same people, in their writings, showing their support for the troops.

It was the opinion of another poster, and I'll say that I agree with him, that a good amount of the troops over in Iraq don't see a difference between being anti-war and being anti-soldier.

Now to answer your question as best I can- I think that those who spend so much effort putting down the war and the President should take some of that "rage" and put it towards something good for the troops. Next time you write one of your "Bush is the Devil and We're in Iraq for Oil" posts, be sure to mention that you still support the troops. Maybe write a letter to some of the troops themselves, telling them how much you support them. Make a donation to a charity that helps the families of fallen soldiers. Donate school supplies for Iraqi children. I don't know! Just do something positive to show the troops that while you don't support the President's decision, you still support them and want them to be safe. Tell them you're behind them 100%.

Remember... it was not the soldier's choice to go to Iraq. It was their choice to join the military to protect this nation and the very rights you guys exercise by ripping the war effort itself. I think more time should be spent doing things for our troops and their families and less time bickering over a war that has already occurred and is too late to do anything other than see the thing through. That's just my humble opinion...



posted on Aug, 10 2005 @ 08:14 PM
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Originally posted by Illdanstormrage

Having come from the UK. I do agree with the anti-war sentiment and I know the only reason why we as a country have gotten into this mess is due to the "auld alliance" but I am sick of us being used as a poodle by the US who tend to assume we are on their side all the time.



Nice poodle. Here's a scooby snack. No just kidding, that's a funny way of putting it, but I don't agree entirely ... we live in a curious modern age of international conflict where people are actually aloud to disagree with their governments, and (at least in the US) even to refuse to fight if they so desire.

Since we have done away with the draft, our military is 100% volunteers. Now, many people take the calculated risk that they can join the military and probably not see any major action, and be able to get great bonuses and tuition payments covered for college, etc. I am not sure what the rules are in England currently.

But, historically this is quite a new arrangement. Every major war prior to and including Vietnam in the USA utilized conscripted troops, except for very early wars which also had volunteers (including the revolutionary war) that felt they were doing the right thing.

It's always intriguing to me to hear the modern British pacifist spin on world affairs ... The United Kingdom in it's heyday was one of the most bloody and ruthless conquering forces of all time! Taking countries by force all over the world in it's globalisation.

Of course they were not alone (Spain, Portugal, France, etc.).

I agree that the rationale was questionable. However, Britain and the US took the lead and took action based on what they thought was the best intelligence available.

Turns out the intelligence was a sham ... but it was a sham at the level of CIA Director ... if the British were so smart why didn't their intelligence put out suitable alternative cases that cast George Tenet's position into doubt?

The question is not one of allegiance to some sort of perceived common cause, but more of collecting evidence.

I would commend the British for example, for their quick action on apprehending the London bombing suspects ... we still can't seem to find Bin Laden, 4 years later!!



posted on Aug, 10 2005 @ 08:55 PM
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Turns out the intelligence was a sham ... but it was a sham at the level of CIA Director ... if the British were so smart why didn't their intelligence put out suitable alternative cases that cast George Tenet's position into doubt?


The intelligence that Saddam was still in posession of WMD was not mutually exclusive to the US and UK. According to France, Germany, Russia, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and so on... Saddam had WMD's. It wasn't just the United States. Hell, some argue that even Saddam thought he was still in control of WMD's only to be fooled into thinking so by government scientists and others who knew better than to have such things with Saddam in power.

I still find the notion that Bush knowingly lied about Iraq having WMD's quite absurd. Anyone with half a brain (and I'm sure the Bush administration collectively has more than half a brain) would know that once no WMD's were found in Iraq, the perverbial "pooh" would hit the fan. It would not only hurt support for the war at home, but would jeopardize any international support for a future pre-emptive strike on another nation (something that the ATS Hippies seem to think Bush is all about doing!).



posted on Aug, 10 2005 @ 10:34 PM
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I used to actually have debates about the war when it first started, but the day i was considered unpatriotic for wanting troops at home with their families, and those who were patriotic felt they should be dodging bullets and dying leaving bastards at home, i knew something was very wrong and wondered if the movie "The Matrix" wasn't fiction at all...



[edit on 10-8-2005 by Trueminatti]



posted on Aug, 10 2005 @ 11:34 PM
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Ok seriously....for the third time.......

this is not a thread for debate....
i didnt create it for that. so if you cant contribute to what the thread was originally intended for i would appreciate it if you didnt contribute at all because for once this was for people to share their opinon on something positive.

its a do you suppor the troops yes or no and why and why not. and theirs no need to rebuttle what anyone else says because this is a "answer the question thread" not a "debate thread". there are 10 million war on terror/iraq war/pres. bush debate threads on here. please with all due respect go to one of those if you feel the need to debate the issue. but this thread has gone WAY off track.


Kind Regards,
DigitalGrl

[edit on 10/01/2004 by DigitalGrl]



posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 05:45 AM
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I support the troops. 99% of them are there bravely risking their lives daily to make Iraq safer. I believe we should make sure our politicians do what it takes to give them the support they need, both while over there and after they come back.

I don't support the occupation itself, because it was handled neither competently nor honestly by its political proponents, it was a strategic error of the largest sort in the "war on terror," if it ever was supposed to be a part of the "war on terror" to begin with.

I don't see any type of incompatibility with holding both these views. Just about the only good coming out of the war in Iraq comes from the daily acts of our soldiers and the Iraqi people who want to make life better in their country. Doesn't mean the war itself was the smart or right thing to do.

-koji K.



posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 07:36 AM
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.
The pot is broken.
The mess is made.

Anymore time spent in Iraq stomping on it more will not unbreak it.

Bring the troops home.

How stupid America is.

Virtually everything that has come from the invasion has been bad.
And it is a lingering thing that will bear poisonous fruit for a long time to come.

With our hands tied up in Iraq we are far from the best position to deal with the real threats such as Iran & North Korea. [and Pakistan]

Flag waving will not save you from being an idiot.
.



posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 08:28 AM
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Originally posted by DigitalGrl
its a do you suppor the troops yes or no and why and why not.


NO I do not support the invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq by coallition forces.
NO do not support the Military Personnel involved.

I was not consluted on whether they should be sent or not. They are trainined professionals, equipped to carry out the job they were sent to do by those who issued the orders.
Just as the extremists they are fighthing are trainined and equipped to do their job.

The war does not make the world safer, it only promotes an increasing anti American sentiment, it divides communities, pomotes fear, hate and terror and promises to give nothing in return.


[edit on 11-8-2005 by Expositor]

[edit on 11-8-2005 by Expositor]

[edit on 11-8-2005 by Expositor]



posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 09:17 AM
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Originally posted by Expositor
The war does not make the world safer, it only promotes an increasing anti American sentiment, it divides communities, pomotes fear, hate and terror and promises to give nothing in return.



.... except to a few with hyperprofit and strategic corporate expansion motives.



posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 10:31 AM
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DigitalGrl:

its a do you support the troops yes or no and why and why not.


Well, first off, what do you mean support? I have a friend in Afghanistan serving in the Canadian military and I send him CDs and USB datavaults full of tunes, is that supporting troops?

Or do you just mean walking around and saying "I support our troops" and that's it?

I'm not American, and I can't say I support 100% everything the US military does in Iraq nor what each individual soldier decides to do in the heat of combat nor their reasons for being there. I can't make blanket statements about the behavior of 360,000 individuals walking around with rifles.

I CAN say that I 100% don't support the war in Iraq, it's caused more harm than good to all involved. I CAN say that I hope that people serving in the US military don't get killed or maimed for doing their jobs, but I can also say I hope no innocent Iraqi civilians get killed or maimed just trying to do theirs. You can try to blame the Iraqis themselves for the suicide bombings and lack of security, but these attacks are directed at the US occupying forces. None of this ever happened before in Iraq until after the invasion. The same people doing suicide attacks used to be cafe owners and mechanics and legal consultants before all this. Maybe unhappy ones, living under a pretty oppressive regime, but people weren't KILLING THEMSELVES and others around them to try and bring about change.

My general statement would be: I don't support the war in Iraq, I don't support everything the US military is doing in Iraq, and I hope that more people don't get killed or hurt on both sides before this whole mess is fixed through sitting down and talking about it instead of using explosives as punctuation.

Just one more thing: I know people in the military and if the public is not 100% behind them in what they're doing, they couldn't give a rat's butt. They have FAR more immediate worries and none of them joined thinking there would be tickertape parades anyway.


jako



posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 12:04 PM
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Originally posted by DigitalGrl
Ok seriously....for the third time.......

this is not a thread for debate....
i didnt create it for that. so if you cant contribute to what the thread was originally intended for i would appreciate it if you didnt contribute at all because for once this was for people to share their opinon on something positive.

its a do you suppor the troops yes or no and why and why not. and theirs no need to rebuttle what anyone else says because this is a "answer the question thread" not a "debate thread". there are 10 million war on terror/iraq war/pres. bush debate threads on here. please with all due respect go to one of those if you feel the need to debate the issue. but this thread has gone WAY off track.


Kind Regards,
DigitalGrl

[edit on 10/01/2004 by DigitalGrl]


Geez, it looks like the Thread Nazi has blown a fuse! I think you should realize that this is a "discussion" board, one which you are not in charge of. The beauty of ATS and other message board is that people are free to engage in discussion, debate and a free exchange of ideas. As long as we stay on the general topic then we can discuss and debate it however we wish, regardless of the wishes of the person who started the thread.

You can jump in whenever you want and try and guide the thread back to the area you intended it to be in, but for God's sake you can't come on here and scream at us all just because we're not playing by your rules. We're exchanging ideas and opinions freely and that is what this place was established for. If you want everyone to post along your guidelines then maybe you should start your own website/message board with your own rules. This isn't a Nazi Regime here!



posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 12:09 PM
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Agreed, DigitalGrl your topic is fine and it's serving it's purpose. What is your problem?

Do you want a simple "no I don't support the war, yes I support the troops" answer?

It doesn't work like that, there's going to be debate in every topic, get over it. You're ruining your own topic.



posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 12:40 PM
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Never in history have troops been blamed for the war their masters created. Iraq is a political expedient orchestrated by industry. No one can possibly doubt that.

GWBush won an election his daddy rigged for him, and because most of the electorate actually voted for Gore, he gave it to them by invading Iraq...



posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 12:52 PM
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Justifying the unjustifyable

Never in history have troops been blamed for the war their masters created. Iraq is a political expedient orchestrated by industry. No one can possibly doubt that.

GWBush won an election his daddy rigged for him, and because most of the electorate actually voted for Gore, he gave it to them by invading Iraq...


have you lost your friken mind. A rig election? Payed for by Daddy? Show your proof..show how it was riged how it was payed for otherwise is just more bush bashing because you can back it up.

[edit on 11-8-2005 by Racer5]



posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 04:08 PM
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.
In 2000 the Florida Election officials demanded Choicepoint use non-standard extremely loose methods on unverified data to create purge lists, all over the objections of Choicepoint employees. There is legal testimony to this effect.

People with differing names, sex, race and age than the purge list were summarily disenfranchised, without being informed, from voting. The vast majority were minorities.

In a state where the final tally differed by only a few hundred votes this was enough to steal the election.
en.wikipedia.org...
.



posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 04:11 PM
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Originally posted by umwolves123
as a United States Marine i must post my vote here. rather some of you may not agree with it at all. however i do agree with the statement that if you dont support the war you inadvertantly do not support our troops, and the reasoning behind this is rather simple. you see our troops over there believe in this war 100%, i've seen it with my own eyes. We believe what we are doing is honestly for the greater good, it goes FAR beyond just governments, it's about kids going to school, people getting fair treatment in hospitals, and people voting. it's about giving people a voice they've never had before. the government may and probably has a different oppinion but for the men and women over there, THAT is what it's about. we believe in this war, and if you dont support what WE believe in then you dont support us. comming home is NOT the answer YET. we must finish what we started no matter why we started it. we cant just leave these people helpless yet. our job is not finished, our mission has not yet been accomplished. so IF you say you support US, then support what we believe. Support this war regarless of government position. Support Helping other people live better lives.



Ive been out of the U.S. Army for about a year and half now, and to state most soldiers over there believe in this cause is simply crazy. Most of them are there because they chose to enlist for the oppertunity to obtain money for higher education. I mean they do understand the responsibility behind there job, and they are under oath, but I have recieved countless phone calls from friends I've served w/ saying they wish they never joined. I mean the sad truth is every family cant afford to send their kids to college so the end result is to enlist in the armed forces. Yes it is patriotic to serve for your country, but that is not why they enlist. And to help others, IMO you must show you want help.




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