Israeli bulldozers raze 100+ shops in West Bank, Nazlat 'Isa

Originally posted by Djarums
CA, your last statement is one used by a group of Hasidic Jews (the ultra orthodox) to explain their opinion that the Jewish people should not have gone back to Israel until the Messiah came and rebuilt the third temple. Please take into account when quoting things the size of the group who uses it as their motto and what it represents. I'm sure it was a cute quote at the time, and looked great to show that Jews thought God will kill everyone else and waltz them on in though.

And therefore i tell you that the same as "take into account the size of the group who uses or says that",
well the idea of the Promissed Land untill 1896.
Something like this:
1896:
Theodore Hertzl, founder of the Zionist movement, writes in Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State) that �the idea which I have developed in this pamphlet is a very old one: it is the restoration of the Jewish state.� Hertzl mentions Palestine and Argentina as possible sites. Also Uganda as possible land of the jew population.
Please explain as well that the idea of move to the Land of Israel, was based on religious matters.
Also don�t forget that the ones that decided planned and did all to move and succeed where the Zionists.
That is also a "small group not representing the whole jew world".
If you want to specify do it properly mate

Ah... see I was explaining the phrase you used in the context of how it's used today. There are certain groups of ultra orthodox jews aka hasidic who believe that the devoutly religious jewish people should not move to Israel now because God promised them that he would return them to Israel, and they should not take things into their own hands, but rather wait until he brings them there. Notice the state of israel and it's government don't really run much based on religious views e.g. most things are still running on the sabbath, none of the government officials are religious, and the one religious party "Shas" is a very small minority these days and in fact walked out on the coalition government formed by Sharon.

My point was just that the statement you said was used nowadays by the far smaller ultra religious groups which don't believe in - and in fact dislike - the current secular government of Israel. Herzl was not a religious jew either and wasn't very well liked in those sects to begin with.

Originally posted by CoLD aNGeR
I accept your challenge, you can start with those 2 books,

Altneuland
The Jewish State

And the biography of (Read the biography of Gaster 1st before u read any book.)
Theodore Herzl Gaster
Max Nordau

And for the last remember this:
"Only Hashem will return the Jews to the land of Israel."

Great! I'll see if I can locate a copy of the book (starting with the biography) and in the meantime I'll figure out some reading material for you.

Originally posted by Djarums
My point was just that the statement you said was used nowadays by the far smaller ultra religious groups which don't believe in - and in fact dislike - the current secular government of Israel. Herzl was not a religious jew either and wasn't very well liked in those sects to begin with.

Well, to start, we must say that thanks to Herzl. Israel had existance 50 years after his dead, but he already planned and start to work with much more groups of jews and interested people, even after his dead, his idea was running 200%.

"Quote from Herzl"
�In Basle I founded the Jewish state . . . Maybe in five years, certainly in fifty, everyone will realize it.�

Now the first Zionist Congress (Where btw they were talking about how to get a home for the jewish people) was organizated by him, thanks to him they made the reunion, they talked and he contacted with powerful and wealthy people for the cause.

Herzl's ideas were met with enthusiasm by the Jewish masses in Eastern Europe, although Jewish leaders were less ardent. Herzl appealed to wealthy Jews such as Baron Hirsch and Baron Rothschild, to join the national Zionist movement, but in vain. He then appealed to the people, and the result was the convening of the First Zionist Congress in Basle, Switzerland, on August 29�31, 1897.

The Congress was the first interterritorial gathering of Jews on a national and secular basis. Here the delegates adopted the Basle Program, the program of the Zionist movement, and declared �Zionism seeks to establish a home for the Jewish people in Palestine secured under public law.� At the Congress the World Zionist Organization was established as the political arm of the Jewish people, and Herzl was elected its first president.

Herzl convened six Zionist Congresses between 1897 and 1902. It was here that the tools for Zionist activism were forged: Otzar Hityashvut Hayehudim; the Jewish National Fund and the movement's newspaper Die Welt.

After the First Zionist Congress, the movement met yearly at an international Zionist Congress. In 1936 the center of the Zionist movement was transferred to Jerusalem.


Just read this a little bit,

When Herzl was a little boy he knew how to pray, and knew all about the Jewish holidays, but he was not an observant Jew. When he grew up he became a writer, a playwrite and a journalist. In the year 1894, his newspaper sent him to France. At that time there was a trial in Paris for a Jewish French army officer named Alfred Dryfus. In the trial he was accused of being a traitor. "I am innocent" cried Dryfus. "Death to the traitor, death to the Jews" people yelled, in the court and in the streets. The truth was that Dryfus did not betray anyone, but they said he was a traitor because he was Jewish. Herzl was shocked by the hatred against the Jewish people, and by the intense anti-Semitism.

Herzl wrote: "A Jewish state" - this is the only solution to anti-Semitism. Herzl decided to work hard so that the Jews could have a state of their own. He hardly saw or spent any time with his family. His friends thought he was crazy. They did not believe it was possible to establish a state for the Jewish people. Orthodox Jews argued that it is forbidden to establish a Jewish state, because only Hashem will return the Jews to the land of Israel. The Jews were scared that if they began to desire their own state - this would lead to even more hatred. But Herzl did not give up.

In 1897 Herzl invited representatives of the Jewish communities from all over the world to the first Zionist congress in Bazel in Switzerland. The representatives at the congress decided that they wanted to establish a home land (state) for the Jewish people.

Herzl met with important people, leaders and ministers of influentiel European countries: Germany, England, Turkey and Russia. He wanted them to help the Jews get a legal right (charter) to establish a state of their own. But they did not help.

At the same time the situation of the Jews in Russia was dire. Herzl wanted very much to help them. When the British offered him Uganda, in Africa, for the Jewish people, he agreed. But the represenattives from Russia and Chaim Weizman, one of the great Jewish leaders at the time, did not agree. They wanted to establish the Jewish state in the land of Israel. Herzl died in 1904 and asked to be buried in Eretz Israel.


You just stated that he wasn�t religious, buy i guess you will understand the huge mistake you just did saying such non sense, and not only that, if you presume of your knowledge of Israel (I guess u are jew) then why you don�t mention names, or at least show that u know what you are talking about?

I�d really like to get a reply answering me if u know the names i asked you in other thread, or the books, u say ask you for your knowledge about religion or Israel has a sense of humor, so show us , your wisdom, show that u really know what you are talking about, and i mean history, books and facts.

Originally posted by Mycroft
Great! I'll see if I can locate a copy of the book (starting with the biography) and in the meantime I'll figure out some reading material for you.

Ok deal, i also will look forward to your info
Just tell me the name of the book, i�ll have to check in the Central Library of the City, but no problem at all, if i can�t find the book you recommend me, i�ll tell you and maybe you can give me another name to read, we will see, enjoy the reading mate

By "not religious" i mean not orthodox etc. Religious would be the people who keep sabbath, kosher, and all that stuff. The state of Israel was established by non-religious Jews, and has never had a religious PM.