Israeli bulldozers raze 100+ shops in West Bank, Nazlat 'Isa

Multiple sources. First one has pictures.

electronicintifada.net...

www.scoop.co.nz...

www.melbourne.indymedia.org...

www.pengon.org...


How to make a suicide bomber. What the hell are these people supposed to do now with their lives?

This kind of crap makes me so angry, I can't even imagine what I would feel if it was my shop.

Not to mention the people who I'm sure relied on the market. TOTALLY unjustifiable, but give it your best shot if you must.


jakomo

yes another clear cut example of the israeli government going after JUST the terrorists...


lol i find it hard to believe anyone is suckered into believing that still.

its apparent israel is doing the same thing as the palestinians but they have the support of the US government and the plaestinians have......NOONE.

yes my government is such a fair unbiased government. lol what a crock of SH!T!

im not interested let them all kill each other, im sick to death of the constant bulls**t that is coming out of the middle east...

sad little people that need to grow up and realise there religion is not the right religion..

they both equally disgust me as much..

Let�s see, for how long the palestinian people built those shops, houses, and land to live in a place?
Who knows...
How long does it take to bring it down?
One day.
Reasons? (djarums will say here that they were all terrorist shops, of terrorist people, they deserved what they got...)
But in reality there is no reasons to destroy an entire civilization, murder the population, destroy hospitals, block the ways, and then (expect no fight back?) , well there is people fighting back, they are called terrorists.
So kill people without reason by orders of the goverment is fair.
But do it being civilian and u will be a terrorist, that is the difference...

www.flashpoints.net...

Also Check this out:

www.flashpoints.net...

Uh huh, tell us again about horrible things like the Jenin "massacre". The stories are great

By the way... electronicintifada is an awesome neutral objective news source. Thanks for sharing it's writings!

CA, you mentioned that Israelis go in and destroy hospitals? I'd like to see support of that statement please. The only thing I can remember even minutely similar to that was the attack on a Palestinian ambulance after discovering that the "Patient" inside was strapped to the gills with dynamite and trying to drive through into a town. Please elaborate on your point.

[Edited on 8-28-2003 by Djarums]

What bothers me the most is the fact that news like this never make it to front page news of the official media ! But when someone blow him or her self up, you see all news papers with it as front page news !

That is why peoples get a wrong picture of the conflict.

Zionists need Palestinian terrorists and atrocities committed against Israeli civilians so that they can justify their continued expansion into the land of others.

It is the only explanation that makes sense.Why else would they destroy so many homes and create new freedom fighters.

That's an interesting way of looking at things John. So you think that the government of Israel is secretly happy when kids get blown up on a bus because it gives them an excuse to do something?

No,I did not say the government of Israel.

I'm not going to go into details but there has been speculation that it is not without precedent.RE:The foundation of Israel.

Originally posted by CoLD aNGeR
But in reality there is no reasons to destroy an entire civilization, murder the population, destroy hospitals, block the ways, and then (expect no fight back?)

No more true a statement has ever been uttered C.A. I think the militant Islamic Jihad could learn much from just letting that sink in for a moment. It is their stated goal to drive everyone else into the sea in a massive wave of genocide..but to be politcally correct, we can't be intolerant of their intolerance now can we? We must strike down religious symbols of peace but we can't get in the way of a bunch of half-crazed religious tyrants because its their freedom of religion to follow their beliefs..even if it means the massacre of the rest of the planet. Well, that may still be the practice in a select demograph of the world but the tide is turning..the world is tired of this..and though many of you may refuse to see it, the end is coming for this idealogy.

Let us examine the case of the S.S. Patria, full of Jewish refugees from Hitler, which was blown up on November 25, 1940 [off the coast of Palestine] supposedly in a mass suicide protest against the British decision to transfer them to Mauritius instead of admitting them to Palestine.

On the 18th anniversary of their deaths, the Zionist leader Sharett together with Ben Gurion declared that they were martyrs to the cause and admitted complicity saying 'It is sometimes necessary to sacrifice a few in order to save the many' (Shonfeld, Holocaust Victims Accuse, p.62)


www.codoh.com...

This is a very good list of atrocities committed against both Jews and Arabs by Zionists terrorists.

www.alfredlilienthal.com...

iT's jUsT thE oTheR siDe oF tHe stOrY.

Djarums: "Uh huh, tell us again about horrible things like the Jenin "massacre". The stories are great

By the way... electronicintifada is an awesome neutral objective news source. Thanks for sharing it's writings! "

Are you insinuating it's fake? That it's actually not happening? Doctored pictures?

That's why I quoted multiple sites. It was picked up by Reuters and AP as well, more conspiracy?

" So you think that the government of Israel is secretly happy when kids get blown up on a bus because it gives them an excuse to do something?"

Do you think for a SECOND that the IDF doesn't know that destroying a marketplace is going to cause more anger and resentment and probably suicide attacks? Of course they do. The more they push the Palestinians (and make no mistake, this is a strong push) the more the militant Palestinian groups react. The more the militants react, the more the Israelis can "clamp down" and strike at refugee camps. The more they can use disproportionate force on a captive civilian population.

So while they're not happy when Israeli kids get blown up, they CAUSE much of the anger in the Palestinian community by doing stuff like THIS, demolishing livelihoods.

Nothing can justify this, and you didn't even try, you just questioned the source.


Jakomo

Excuse me but pictures of the FRAUDULENT jenin "massacre" and eyewitness accounts were invented until the UN themselves discovered it was all a fake. I don't see what's so shocking about me questioning something.

Originally posted by DjarumsExcuse me but pictures of the FRAUDULENT jenin "massacre" and eyewitness accounts were invented until the UN themselves discovered it was all a fake. I don't see what's so shocking about me questioning something.

Effective propaganda needs good pictures. The thing is, if you show someone a picture and tell them what they�re looking at, they will believe what you tell them even if the picture you show contradicts it.

Try a thought experiment:

Look at these pictures. Forget the headlines. Forget the Middle East. If you can�t bring yourself to do that, try printing the pictures, removing the text, and show them to a friend without telling him what they are.

What do you really see? What does your friend see?

Well, what you don�t see are shops and homes being torn down. You don�t see crowds of people recently made homeless, you don�t see shopkeepers suddenly deprived of their livelihood, you don�t see IDF personnel, no weapons or military vehicles.

In fact, what you do see is ordinary work being done in an ordinary scrap yard. It could be anywhere in the world.

What do you see?

Nice homes in the background. Wherever these pictures were taken, they�re in an affluent neighborhood. Does that describe Nazlat �Isa? I don�t know, I don�t know Israel geography, but it�s a question worth asking.

What else do you see?

Roads that have been built for a while, roads that have power lines strung up next to them. Roads that haven�t been torn up by the treads of heavy machinery, as you would expect in a demolition project.

You see piles of metal. Just metal. If this were the result of demolition, you would see broken blocks of cement and refuse of mixed materials. Instead you see piles of scrap that someone has taken the time to sort for later use.

No broken walls, no broken glass�I could go on.

Open up your eyes and see. These pictures are not what they�re sold as.


[Edited on 28-8-2003 by Mycroft]

Mycroft & Djarums: HAHA! They're fake pictures, right, because Israel would never do this?

I am astounded by your ability to shut out any logical reasoning when it has to do with the potential of the Israelis to do ANY HARM WHATSOEVER.

You want to bring up Jenin? The Israelis DIDN'T allow ANY foreign press into Jenin for DAYS after the incursion. While there probably weren't 500 killed they have been able to verify 52 deaths. Funny how you slam the UN every time they say something against Israel except now. "THE U.N. EXONERATED US FROM THE MASSACRE AT JENIN, SO THERE. BUT ANY OF THEIR CRITICISMS ARE INVALID."

Fair weather friends, I guess. The UN is good and trustable when they report things that agree with your little insular imaginary world.

"But it cited copious evidence that the army violated international law by using human shields, failing to protect civilians, shooting at ambulances and denying medical aid to the wounded."

Do you still like them?

Mycroft says : "Well, what you don�t see are shops and homes being torn down. You don�t see crowds of people recently made homeless, you don�t see shopkeepers suddenly deprived of their livelihood, you don�t see IDF personnel, no weapons or military vehicles." Unfortunately, they can't just stand there and snap pictures of anything they want. Nazlat is a closed area, under curfew, and if you are taking pictures for the foreign press you're in danger of being shot or at least "detained". And as for military vehicles, you see bulldozers. We both know Israel uses them for demolitions, armored. Look again at the pictures.

"In fact, what you do see is ordinary work being done in an ordinary scrap yard. It could be anywhere in the world. " Not quite. Look at the landscape, look at the styles of the homes.

"Roads that have been built for a while, roads that have power lines strung up next to them. Roads that haven�t been torn up by the treads of heavy machinery, as you would expect in a demolition project" ? Again, you're basing your doubts as to how the ROAD looks in a few pictures? A bit of a stretch there.

"You see piles of metal. Just metal. If this were the result of demolition, you would see broken blocks of cement and refuse of mixed materials. Instead you see piles of scrap that someone has taken the time to sort for later use." Sorted metal scraps? Huh? Are you looking at the same picutres as the rest of us? The second picture shows a bulldozer in action (notice the dust around the front of the bulldozer, where the claw is). I see buildings destroyed, some of them little shanties, some a little larger, but clearly side by side along the sides of the street.

"No broken walls, no broken glass�I could go on. " There's broken walls and broken glass, don't bother to go on.

Open up your eyes and see. These pictures are not what they�re sold as. "

If you're trying to fool anyone else with your observations, good luck. It would seem to me that you're trying to fool yourself, which must be far easier. WHY you are trying to fool yourself is obvious, you don't want to face up to the truth, it's a natural human reaction.

But face up to it. As soon as this is picked up by any large international media I will repost and you can make up some more "observations".

Do you not agree that Israel routinely demolishes Palestinian property? Do you not agree that they already razed 82 shops in January in Nazlat? Do you in fact live on this planet?


Jakomo

Originally posted by Jakomo
Mycroft & Djarums: HAHA! They're fake pictures, right, because Israel would never do this?�
�Do you not agree that Israel routinely demolishes Palestinian property? Do you not agree that they already razed 82 shops in January in Nazlat? Do you in fact live on this planet?

Let�s turn these questions around:

Do you think Arabs never produce propaganda? Do you think they would never exaggerate or outright lie to swing public opinion? Do you think that every piece of �news� that comes from the Arabic Middle East is the pure unadulterated truth? Do you, in fact, live on this planet?!

I don�t know anything about Nazlat, but I�ve worked in demolition sites and scrap yards. I do know that these pictures are not demolition photos, and anyone that says they are is a liar or a fool.

I hope you�re the second. Being the first would say something really ugly about you.

Take a look at the pictures:

The first picture is just an ordinary bulldozer. It�s not even running. It�s got a digging tool on the back, and the earth around the tool looks as though it may have been stirred recently, but that�s it. There is a lot of trash, but there isn�t a piece of broken wall or foundation anywhere. The wall you can see, on the building that�s perfectly intact except for a few pieces of sheet metal missing from the roof,

The second picture�it�s heavy equipment doing something, but demolition? Look at the scrap metal. This is not the remains of buildings, there is nothing there that looks like it could have been part of a wall or a building frame. Take a look at that white square in the lower left hand corner, the one that looks like a crushed drum or cylinder of some sort. It�s been there long enough to accumulate dirt or rust around the lower edge. That�s something that�s been there a while.

The third picture�Are we supposed to believe Israeli bulldozers moved these piles of scrap into place without disturbing the power lines on both sides of the road? This was something done fast, within 24 hours, yet there are no scrapes on the road from metal or rocked being pushed into place, no gouges from the tread of heavy machinery? The Israelis did this, but were careful to leave a parking space for the blue civilian truck in the upper left corner?

Speaking of the blue truck, look straight up from the nose of that truck and you see�the cab of a semi! Could that semi be there to pick up a load of scrap metal, because this picture is just a picture of a normal scrap metal business?
And what are those walls in the mid left side of the picture? Is it the remains of a home or business the Israelis have destroyed�or is it just a corral for the horses?

Look at the trash on the road, lower right. The stuff that�s been ground into the pavement. Does that look like new trash? Or trash that�s been exposed to the sun and rain for months or years?

I won�t even bother with the fourth picture. Somebody took pictures of a scrap metal business and is trying to pass them off as evidence of an atrocity.

This propaganda isn�t even good. They�re trying to pull a Goebbels on us.

Mycroft: "Somebody took pictures of a scrap metal business and is trying to pass them off as evidence of an atrocity.

This propaganda isn�t even good. They�re trying to pull a Goebbels on us."

I wanted to see what kind of lengths you'd go to in order to keep fooling yourself and wow, you even surprised ME. Of COURSE I believe that sometimes there is Arab propaganda but these pictures appear real. They definitely don't look like any scrapyard I've ever seen, far similar to pictures of other demolished Palestinian properties I've seen.

But I can see that your rabid Pro-Zionist slant isn't going to be swayed by mere physical proof. Pity, but there'll be plenty more atrocities for me to report and for you to try and discount.

They do add up though.

jakomo

Is very common that pro palestinians discredit pro israelis and viceversa. But this has to stop, if everytime somebody shows a picture of whatever regarding the middle east conflict, can have the problem of "ohh what a nice photoshop work", but then what kind of picture or from where do you want it to not say is propaganda?
Do u think Zionists are not using propaganda?
Even america does it, but wait, maybe the palestinian security agency did it, or maybe all the pc specialists that Palestine has....
Dude stop it, as well as u say that we go to far, u are crossing the same line, talking like that about arabs,
anyway if u feel so disturbed about the propaganda of the arabs in their news (that i see and understand) i won�t mention a lot that American, and european propaganda were much worst in that period of time.
I can assure 100%, I even have family, i know what i am telling you, and i have access to those channels daily, as much as i understand them, and not only that, i am not muslim, and i don�t like religions and i don�t believe in god. NONE OF THEM.
And i see that the arab world is just trying all the time to see the conflict as it is and not as the world is showing to the public, what is very funny is the hypocrisy of the non-arab people telling what is good for them and what is not, is like egypt going now to Italy and criticise the society, how people lives, the goverment, everything, because they don�t like how the live their lifes...

All the world talks about them as the crazy, the sucide bombers, the fanatics, extremists, when they just see themselves living in a muslim country, believe me, i�ve been in some of them, is not like the media shows, i mean of course they live in poverty, but still they are satisfied, they REALLY BELIEVE IN THE QUORAN, they don�t need Hamas people to tell them how or when to believe, 99% of them are muslim, and this religion is very strict against SIN, therefor was the last one of the 3, in the quoran mentions that GOD tries it 3 times with his creation, and the first 2 failed.
He came out with the 3rd, therefor u read about the bible, and the torah inside the quoran, but u can�t do that from the bible or the torah, if u know what i mean.
In the quoran talks about jews in a different way, is not anti-jew, but suposely God tried to put order, and make the definitive mandkind with the religion, but due to what happend with moises, and many more things, he gave up, then the christians, and then muslims.
Muslim are feeling therefor that they are more right than other, and therefor they won�t accept any order of the outside world regarding religion faith or believe.

U have to keep in mind, that they are all feeling attacked, that the attack is against the religion and not agaisnt terrorists. Everybody in the world talks about them, decides for them, but nobody understand THEM.

Keep in mind last thing, the palestinian conflict has a huge problem, which is AL Quds, the 2nd holiest place on earth for any Muslim or Islam believer.
Guess where is that place, and what happened to it, how the intifada started and why.
Or even read the provocations your own

www.news.com.au...

But anyway, i am not asking you anymore to understand muslims or arab world, u seem to not like to do that and only understand the Zionists and Israeli position. Ok let�s try some of this:

Mycroft, with the knowledge u seem to have
those books must be obiously important and relevant.

The Jewish State

Holy and the Profane: Evolution of Jewish Folkways

Passover, Its History and Traditions

Theodor Herzl: Journalistic Stories Feuilletons

Dead Sea Scriptures

Diaries of Theodor Herzl

The Jews' State: A Critical English Translation


And not just those books, if u like u can tell me which one have u read, and we can talk about it, also i�d like to know what is your opinion about those people:

Theodore Herzl
Rabbi Fischmann
Nathan Birnbaum
Golda Meir
Levi Eshkol

Do you know what happened in Basle?

Herzl's ideas were met with enthusiasm by the Jewish masses in Eastern Europe, although Jewish leaders were less ardent. Herzl appealed to wealthy Jews such as Baron Hirsch and Baron Rothschild, to join the national Zionist movement, but in vain. He then appealed to the people, and the result was the convening of the First Zionist Congress in Basle, Switzerland, on August 29�31, 1897.

The Congress was the first interterritorial gathering of Jews on a national and secular basis. Here the delegates adopted the Basle Program, the program of the Zionist movement, and declared �Zionism seeks to establish a home for the Jewish people in Palestine secured under public law.� At the Congress the World Zionist Organization was established as the political arm of the Jewish people, and Herzl was elected its first president.

Maybe you should tell some more about these people, organization and Rabbis to everybody here, since you know so much about jews

And please keep in mind that i read most of that, so don�t even try ....


[Edited on 29-8-2003 by CoLD aNGeR]