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CNN mentions PJ's UFO special upset a lot of people

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posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by nightwing
"But if you take people, say from ATS that have researched the subject, and are more qualified to make a judgement, you will get the opposite result, which is what happened." == Hal

NOT exactly. Hal, you and Gazrok have researched the subject. I do believe you and he would be more
qualified but would still have to swear to make your judgement from only what is introduced in court.


If this were tried in a court of law, it would have to be shown that Roswell was not a myth. Therefore the evidence of Roswell would have been admitted, and also on the table to be judged. The outcome of that would set the basis of whether PJ is guilty or not. In order for a juror to make an informed decision, the Roswell case would have to be examined.

As far as Truman goes, he definitely was a busy president. But in your short biography it failed to mention the Security Act of 1947, which allowed for very high security within the government and bypass oversight, among other things like create the air force branch of the military. Coincidently, it was signed July 26, 1947. Twenty-two days after the Roswell incident.

en.wikipedia.org...




posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 11:49 AM
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Coincidently, it was signed July 26, 1947. Twenty-two days after the Roswell incident.


As I understand it, the Act came (bureaucratically) seemingly from nowhere, and was drafted, pitched, and approved in record time.... I've always thought that was EXTREMELY odd for such a sweeping measure of legislation.

I mean, we're basically talking about the entire overhaul of the structure of the department of defense! Yet it took place relatively overnight, with little press leading up to it. I'd wager if you asked an airman of early July how he felt about becoming a member of the Air Force, versus the Army he is in now, he'd reply, "Huh?".....



posted on Aug, 24 2005 @ 02:28 AM
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"If this were tried in a court of law, it would have to be shown that Roswell was not a myth." == Hal

And so we arrive at the heart of the matter. Until that can be proven, saying "Roswell is a myth" is correct.

"The outcome of that would set the basis of whether PJ is guilty or not. " == Hal

Well, sort of. The outcome of that would set the basis of whether or not the charges against PJ are
even legitimate. Bogus charges mean case dismissed. Legitimate charges means you now have a case.



posted on Aug, 24 2005 @ 08:04 AM
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For the LAST time...

He fully stated the credentials of Skeptics and completely ommitted mentioning ANY credentials of the UFOlogists mentioned. This is a FACT.

It's sleazy journalism, pure and simple.

You can nitpick semantics all you want, but the bottom line is that anyone with a lick of common sense can see that he clearly stated his OPINION of Roswell as a FACT, and that he is ignoring a huge amount of evidence.

I'll state this again too. A COVERUP is a verifiable FACT (It is NOT a myth). On the very same newspaper page featuring the Roswell story of a recovered disc, you'll also see another story and statement about the Army (General Ramey if I'm not mistaken) saying there were NO TESTS being done in the area that could have crashed. Therefore, IF accepting the Roswell crash as Mogul, you'd also have to accept that the Army told a bold-faced lie when it stated there were no tests, therefore confirming a deliberate coverup.



posted on Aug, 24 2005 @ 09:36 AM
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I stated that I was quiet interested in hearing your take on this Nightwing. But trying to use the same standard as a court of law...

Please!

I've participated in (heh you bozos! NOT criminal.
) and witnessed lots and lots of cases and the very first thing that gets lost is the truth.

Court has absolutely nothing to do with the truth (justice usually gets violated somewhere along the way also
).

So why this ridiculous notion Nightwing?



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 01:11 AM
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We have now come full circle. PJ and his supporting press folks have lied.

The USAF lied.

The US Government is engaged in a cover-up of monstrous proportions.

Now we can add the general consensus in here as:

"Court has absolutely nothing to do with the truth ." == Golemina

Well, so much for our legal system. Obviously there is no value contained there for examining testimony and hearsay.

I will make one final try before standing down from the forum. Lets see, what is left ?

Science. OK, lets go for a complete sweep.



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 11:00 AM
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You are seriously cracking me up bro.


Let's get serious for one moment... If we can.


>'We have now come full circle. PJ and his supporting press folks have lied. '
Is it a big stretch of the imagination that the 'press' can lie?

>'The USAF lied. '
The guys in blue WILL do their job... No matter what is asked of them.

>'The US Government is engaged in a cover-up of monstrous proportions. '
Do I REALLY need to say anything Nightwing?

>"Court has absolutely nothing to do with the truth ." == Golemina

>'Well, so much for our legal system. Obviously there is no value contained there for examining testimony and hearsay.'

Our legal system is an absolute joke. For example, a recent conversation I witnessed in Superior Court... (Not exactly in a whisper.
)

Plaintiff: "She"... (referring to the Asst Prosecuting Attorney) "FORGED that document!"
Attorney: "She would never take that risk."
Plaintiff: "Look! She couldn't possibly have successfully faxed that document..."
Attorney: "What?"
Plaintiff: "She transposed those digits... That area code does not exist!"
Attorney: "You have to understand... YOUR case is not that important for her to do that!"
Plaintiff: "Yet here we are..."
Judge: "" (



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 01:47 AM
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"Is it a big stretch of the imagination that the 'press' can lie? " == golemina

For some I guess. As Dr Love pointed out earlier, Gazrok's reaction has been
in line with the British soccer fans. "He continues to kick you even when you're rotting in the ground."

"The guys in blue WILL do their job... No matter what is asked of them. " == golemina

Agree. They can watch my back anytime. And they aint gonna lie over something like aliens.
Nukes, maybe. But not little green frag targets.

"Come on Nightwing, we are all adults here." == golemina

Uh, one last legal shot. I would like to see a reference for that, other than testimony. (Smirk)

"I'm highly (and easily) entertained!" == golemina

So I see. A trait we share, perhaps. My above post was a take on lost shaman's last post. I could
not answer him directly as he was too spun up in hear no evil, see no evil mode. All I can do there
is eat popcorn and see if his tasmanian activity produces butter or ice cream.

"Do you really think you'll fare any better with 'science'. " == golemina

Actually I do. When confronted with a lack of science to study, Ufologists start pointing back at
reams of eyewitness accounts. There are still at least two options open to them and might even
generate another break a la SETI. And that is a preview of the "big finish".

"Let's jettison the pretense and powdered wigs... and talk turkey. " == golemina

OK, I'll concede that point and divert for this post. I'll try to put it in a nutshell.

This is a "believer" board and does not take kindly to the other side. But the other side
has become very similiar to this board in some ways. The total set of testimony and
what minimal physical evidence exists is split almost down the middle and some testimonies
are used by both sides with a different take on it. Gazrok has done a rather remarkable job
of putting together the believer take and it would be interesting to me to see the other side
do the same. I dont want to do it cause that would be real work, and I dont fully agree with either
side anyways. In any event, its a stalemate. What I said to Gazrok earlier on, two conflicting
sworn testimonies and what do you have ? Focus on COMPLETE set of data. Ready ?



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 04:22 AM
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True Believers


Originally posted by nightwing
This is a "believer" board and does not take kindly to the other side.

I've been reading through this thread, and it has turned out to be much more than I had expected. I originally looked at it because I wanted to know who “PJ” was.

Thought it might be someone else.


I think it is inaccurate to refer to ATS as a “believer” board. There are believers here, there are skeptics, there are cynics, and there are people who couldn't care less about any of this.

And no one here agrees on everything.

A broad brush paints a crude picture. Even if you think you're surrounded by “believers”, there are plenty of “non-believers” and skeptics like myself (I remain undecided about many of the allegations in this case) who may not be commenting, but that doesn't mean we aren't watching.

The Peoples' Court

The court analogies are fun to a point, but I think the motif is a bit overdone.

This is a discussion forum, not a court of law, and the rules that govern our discussions cannot be used to render judgment on anything other than a member's compliance with the agreement which authorizes us to post here.

As I have come to understand, people will believe what they want to believe. Regardless of how wrong someone may seem to be, if they believe something to be true, changing that belief is almost always too great a task to justify the effort.

Which leaves us with no other rational course than to accept the existence of disagreement and respect its validity.

Unless, of course, we choose not to.


The only verdicts which really matter in this case, as in all cases brought before the membership of ATS, are the verdicts we reach in our own minds, and even those are subject to change without notice.

So, What Happened In Roswell?

In order for a conspiracy to exist, it must make sense.

At least, it has to make sense to the conspirators, if no one else, or their actions would not be coherent enough to constitute conspiracy. When examining conspiracy allegations, I find it helpful to keep that in mind.

And I find it helpful to ask questions as I examine the various claims. What are the motivations of the players? Why are they doing what they are claimed to be doing? Who benefits? Are the allegations consistent with other facts? Stuff like that.

In the case of Roswell, the government's actions were not consistent with a routine Mogul balloon recovery. Such operations didn't routinely make headlines, to put it mildly.

But Roswell did. It also involved a great deal of unusual government activity, much of which is well-documented somewhere.

I am convinced that the U.S. government is not being forthcoming about Roswell. The fact that it continues to maintain secrecy about the event is significant in itself.

It means whatever they were hiding, they wish to remain hidden, and they have gone to great lengths to keep it that way -- despite the fact that most of what constitutes “they” are now people who weren't even born when the Roswell Incident took place.

Above Top Secret

Is the government hiding evidence of the crash of a craft piloted by extraterrestrial beings?

I don't know.

But it is hiding something, and has been doing so for over half a century. It has also repeatedly issued conflicting statements about Roswell, none of which stand up to scrutiny, which is why UFOlogists can rightly claim the government lied. Self-contradiction and obvious fabrication are, in fact, lies.

So why the secrecy?

At the very least, I am reasonably convinced that the government has used classified information related to the question of extraterrestrial life as a basis for loyalty tests and counterintelligence operations, because that sort of information leaves a glowing, radioactive trail of shock wherever it goes.

For high-security applications, that makes it ideal as a “taggant”. Whether the information is true or not is irrelevant, what matters is the effect it causes.

Perhaps the government staged all of this as part of a foundation for the broad, sweeping mole-hunts that took place after WWII -- hunts which bagged a lot of moles.

Perhaps not.

The U.S. government did something mysterious in this case. Actually, quite a few mysterious things. Whether it discovered aliens or made the whole thing up as a foundation for all the Majestic Twelve variants, I don't know.

But the truth has not yet been revealed, and as long as it has not, it is reasonable to wonder why, and entertaining to speculate about and discuss possibilities.

That's why I come here.

P.J. O'Requiem

Peter Jennings was a news personality. Though he was no newcomer to journalism, he earned his chops by selling news on TV, and that requires talent and skill.

Gazrok's charges are hardly the worst crimes that could be laid at his feet, but his job was to sell news, not truth.

Those who forget that forget what sets a man like him apart from people like us.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 04:59 AM
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Originally posted by nightwing
"Is it a big stretch of the imagination that the 'press' can lie? " == golemina

For some I guess. As Dr Love pointed out earlier, Gazrok's reaction has been
in line with the British soccer fans. "He continues to kick you even when you're rotting in the ground."


What is he kicking people with ? Evidence and facts?




"The guys in blue WILL do their job... No matter what is asked of them. " == golemina

Agree. They can watch my back anytime. And they aint gonna lie over something like aliens.
Nukes, maybe. But not little green frag targets.



Unless of course " something like aliens" was classified TOP SECRET or ABOVE TOP SECRET , like "Nukes".




"I'm highly (and easily) entertained!" == golemina

So I see. A trait we share, perhaps. My above post was a take on lost shaman's last post. I could
not answer him directly as he was too spun up in hear no evil, see no evil mode. All I can do there
is eat popcorn and see if his tasmanian activity produces butter or ice cream.


What? I said , when Truman was asked about UFOs he said "Oh Yes! The subject of UFOs has been brought up at every conference we've had with the military."

And you say I'm " too spun up in hear no evil, see no evil mode", and all you can do is watch my " tasmanian activity"!

That's Classic, I can see you've learned from the pros!

Are you not above that?

I'm simply arguing that evidence fits with the original press release from Roswell.

You started out on the thread saying that the Air Force " borrowed" the UFO idea from a Ufologist! That makes no sense if the whole idea was to recover a TOP SECRET Mogul balloon, why on Earth would you go off and send out a fake press release that is guaranteed to bring the Full attention of the World?

But of course Truman was in on the "Big Joke" right?

Oh yeah , and if that is what was really going on why was Truman getting Oral briefings about UFOs from his personal Air Force Pilot every three months? If the point is to keep people off your case by creating a cover story why not leak fake documents instead of receiving Oral briefings?

Unless of course they were actually taking UFOs seriously for some reason.

Then oral briefings make perfect sense.

If Truman is saying UFOs were brought up at every conference the white house had with the Military , and you know as well as I do , that no one has ever found documentation of UFOs being discussed at any time in this way with Truman , much less everytime. (That tells me its Secret.)

What was going on in '47?

Do you really think Truman was involved in this public deception ?

That sure is taking things pretty far , and all for what ? So they can call General Ramey away from his vacation to pose him with a piece of a Mogul balloon , when they were trying to cover up a Mogul balloon recovery no one knew anything about in the Middle of the New Mexico desert. (That's real smart , coming from the military that just won a world war)

But hey Roswell is just a myth started by " Promoters" so they can sell keychains at the Little A'le Inn!

Don't believe me , just watch Peter Jennings UFO Special.






[edit on 26-8-2005 by lost_shaman]



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 07:17 AM
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you know, it's threads like this that keep this place rockin'

I'm a skeptic, i gotta see it to believe it.

Roswell is arguably one of the most fascinating events to happen in the last 50 years.

The truth will be revealed one day, i just hope it's in my lifetime



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 09:22 AM
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For some I guess. As Dr Love pointed out earlier, Gazrok's reaction has been
in line with the British soccer fans. "He continues to kick you even when you're rotting in the ground."


So you admit then, that your position on PJ is rotting in the ground?

Sorry, couldn't resist that one....


I'll agree that my accusations towards PJ aren't exactly the most serious ones to be levied, however I believe they support the basic idea of this thread (i.e. "PJ's UFO special upset a lot of people"). As one of those upset people, I felt it necessary to state the justification for it, and I think I've done that....



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 10:58 AM
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Only debunkers who believe the mainstreme press think he will be missed.
It's funny, Univision get's higher ratings AND they have programs that show REAL UFO footage.
Not debunk things using computer animation basing it on an official government statement of what happened.

I came across a linke where Jennings says some harsh things toward conspiracy theorist, meanwhile the mainstreme networks can only report the same BS headlines from the news wire.
Watch World news which gets low ratings these days, the same 12 headlines on all major networks.
Unless your getting payed to debunk UFO's and your seeing a lot of it post Bush pro-War, higher energy prices administration. GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS.
The mainsterme press is a big cooperate joke.
Bush approval ratings 36% and falling you #ing sell out's.


EDIT: allow the censors to work, no need to try and get around them.

[edit on 26-8-2005 by Gazrok]



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 11:12 AM
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Btw., Univision is the hispanic network.
They get higher rating then the networks.

They showed the ovoid cricular UFO that matches the SOM 1-01.
You #ing Millitary Industrial Complex Nazi's? What's wrong, the American public is not buying into your backwoods NASCAR Republican inbred scare tactics.

LOW TV NETWORK RATINGS. You Nazi.
LOW APPROVAL RATINGS FOR THE KARL ROVE CONFERDERATE STATES OF AMERICA ADMINISTRATION

Raise that confederate flag when you go to NASCAR and support our troops, fill up that Ford F150 with 3 DOLLAR A GALLON GAS SUCKER.

That there defense contractor pay ya' good huh?


EDIT: same note as above...

[edit on 26-8-2005 by Gazrok]



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 03:00 PM
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topsecretresearch, not that I disagree with you, but you need to tone it down dude.

Otherwise, it's been nice knowin ya.

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 03:32 PM
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Many Mexican and hispanic stations though (ebaumsworld.com comes to mind) continually portray known hoaxes as real though too, so viewer beware....

Univision is basically a monopoly in it's niche market, so hardly surprising it has high ratings...just a cautionary note. I think most of us here know how well the mainstream media can be trusted, hehe.... (about as far as I can throw a truck, hehe...which of course, isn't very much
)



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 05:17 PM
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Yo Topsecretresearch, let off just a little on the throttle levers dude... You actually creased the stop peg 1/4 inch.


You've got an interesting viewpoint, if you tone it down just a tad, we might actually get to see it.


Nice job on the edits Gazrok... You managed to get Topsecretrearch almost sounding sane...


and here I was thinking you Mods had it so easy.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 05:48 PM
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d = v^2/g


Originally posted by Gazrok
I think most of us here know how well the mainstream media can be trusted, hehe.... (about as far as I can throw a truck, hehe...which of course, isn't very much
)

Depends on the size of the truck:



As every ATSers knows, the devil is in the details.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 08:27 PM
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Originally posted by Majic
Depends on the size of the truck:

Touché Majic, very funny.


I really enjoyed your earlier post.



Originally posted by Majic
And I find it helpful to ask questions as I examine the various claims. What are the motivations of the players? Why are they doing what they are claimed to be doing? Who benefits? Are the allegations consistent with other facts? Stuff like that.

This is true with any conspiracy. This helps identify who is behind the cover-up and why. There are plenty of documents on the "who" and the "how". If you think the Majestic documents are real, they explain the "what", which they say a craft with bodies was recovered.

If you put witness testimony and the MJ12 docs aside, there is not many other things it could be that would still be classified to this day other than extraterrestrials, IMHO.



Perhaps the government staged all of this as part of a foundation for the broad, sweeping mole-hunts that took place after WWII -- hunts which bagged a lot of moles.

That is an interesting theory, but if your referring to McCarthyism, most of that took place later in the 50's.



Peter Jennings was a news personality. Though he was no newcomer to journalism, he earned his chops by selling news on TV, and that requires talent and skill.

Gazrok's charges are hardly the worst crimes that could be laid at his feet, but his job was to sell news, not truth.

This may be true, but the public expects to get a truthful and unbiased report from someone like Peter Jennings. ABC could have used other anchorman for this special, but by using PJ it lends more credibility in the eyes of the public.



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 02:01 AM
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"That's Classic, I can see you've learned from the pros!" == lost shaman

I am learning from you. I did not know you were a pro.

"You can't deny that the evidence exists!" == lost shaman

I dont think I have. We just disagree on what the word should mean for Ufologists. I will borrow
one of Gazrok's favorite analogies, "sorting the wheat from the chaff." I believe that physical evidence
is wheat, and should be completely examined before doing a "Chicken Little" violation of Occam's Razor with it.
I further believe that conflicting testimonies is chaff, but it is still SOMETHING. Now you have me diverted a second time.

"your short biography it failed to mention the Security Act of 1947.......things like create the air force branch of the military. Coincidently, it was signed July 26, 1947.
Twenty-two days after the Roswell incident. " == Hal

"As I understand it, the Act came (bureaucratically) seemingly from nowhere" == Gazrok

Obviously WW II did not play a part at all. By that reasoning, I could conclude that the act was arranged totally
by the Roswell AAF commander and commenced as an emergency measure the DAY AFTER ROSWELL.

Time to look at some wheat, cause this aint testimony.

Col William H Blanchard, commander of RAAF, was on leave 9 July (from RAAF Morning Report for 9 July)
and the Morning Report for Monday 28 July, documents his return from leave on Saturday, July 26th.) During
this period, his vice commander, Col Payne Jennings was commander of RAAF.
1st Lt Walter Haut's office of Public information, who was responsible for publishing "The Atomic Blast"
has a picture on page one, July 25, 1947 edition showing Col Blanchard, Oliver LaFarge (Air Force Association
representative and Santa Fe resident), witnessing Acting Gov Montoya sign the state's Air Force Day declaration
celebration for 1 Aug. The story goes on to say how Col Blanchard had an appointment with Gov Mabry on 9 July
to work the details. (Gov Mabry was out of state after 9 July - Colorado - Govenor's conference so the details were conducted by
the Acting Govenor.) The rest of the issue is focused on Air Force Day. This story is also in the Albuquerque Journal,
July 15 edition.




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