Where would Islamic nations be without the West?

What a stupid thread.

Where is the Human race going with idiot threads like this and the situations we have at the moment.

Obviously real History about the great learning centres of Cush, library of Alexandria etc mean nothing today. Where would buildings be without Egypt? Where would music be without Africans, where would MORDERN technology be without the west (and Japan). Where would rail travel be without China?

We need the east, the east needs us. Its that Simple!

Originally posted by Netchicken
Where would Islamic nations be without the West?

[edit on 7-8-2005 by Netchicken]

safe and warm, without the worry that at any moment they could be killed. without having to mourn for their brothers who were killed.

Originally posted by Netchicken

If they are barely literate, barely technological now, and that by copying or stealing techology from the west, what would they be like if they had no contact with the west? Still in the middle ages?

and what makes you think they wanted us to help them? they may not have wanted to be living like us, but no. we are too stupid to have seen that. we think that we are better than everyone else and can save the whole world...well we cant....

Um I don't understand.
Surely the Ottoman empire doesnt count as the "west". and they were under Ottoman rule until fairly recently (less then a hundred years ago). Last time I checked the ottoman's werent that backward.

I really don't understand what this thread is supposed to illuminate in fact its entire premise is off. Anyone who knows anything about history understands that the "west" and Islamic nations have been codependant for basically their entire history. In fact lets talk about about where the west would be without the influence of islamic nations. According to Netchicken "we can easily say that if Islam had not been around the West would probably be similar to today."

Yeah that sounds about right...
Things would be pretty similar of course we wouldnt have algebra, optics, gunpowder, astronomy, chemistry, or any of the many things that make life in the west today so nice and "civilized". Unless you believe the west would have been able to rediscover two thousand years worth of technology in a thousand years I think its safe to say we would be even less advanced today then the Islamic nations people love to put down so much. Thats not even mentioning the cultural niceties Islam offered to us. I suppose "sooner or later" the west would have managed to work out all this technology stuff on its own (I'm going with later by the way) but I think its a fairly safe bet that we'd probably be just exiting the Renaissance just about now if we had to go it alone.

So please..
Spare me the White man's burden B.S. we didnt really offer that much to Islam when compared to what Islam offered to us.

This thread is especially hilarious considering the author is the very same one who was snivveling about "revisionism" in regards to another issue. The very fact of the matter is, Islam came out of the same place as civilization. Sticking with the example though instead of launching a full fledged attack on all of the western world, lets look at the specifics.

First off Islam is deirectly responsible for the environment that fostered the scientific advancements that the west does acknowledge. Had it not been for the islamic school structure, that eventually paved the way for European "universities", none of their contributions would of been possible.

Let us start with the most important contribution-The Zero. One could argue had it not been for islamic scholars the very mathematics necesarry for all these programs might not be possible. For example, consider the use of "zero." The Hindus had the concept of zero, but it was the Muslims who developed its use as a placeholder that made possible the powerful digital system upon our modern civilization is built. This computer in front of me has a memory filled with nothing but zeroes and ones. Were there no zero its memory would consist only of ones and would be utterly useless.

Now, I give you another example relating to the detailed motions of the planets known as the Ptolemaic system. The essence of the Ptolemaic system is not just the belief that the earth is at the center of the universe–although that was an important element. In Ptolemy's system, an ingenious and complex system of cycles, epicycles, and offset centers of velocity account for the motions of the planets. I won't go into the details here; the point is that it was very complex. This system was criticized by the Muslims on a variety of grounds, the significance of which have not been fully appreciated by modern Westerners who are obsessed with the question of whether the sun or the earth is at the center of the planetary system. The Muslim objections have nothing to do with whether the sun or the earth is at the center. To make this clear, I shall concentrate on the orbit of the moon, because everyone agrees and always has agreed that the moon goes around the earth. In the 13th century there was a great Muslim scholar named Nasir ad-Din at-Tusi, who was the director of the marvelous observatory at Maragha. The equipment at Maragha was so precise that it was unmatched in Europe until Tycho Brahe's famous observatory in the 16th century. But at-Tusi was not only an excellent observer, as Tycho was, he was also an innovative theoretician. He was also a wonderful observatory director. The Maragha observatory was not just an observatory; it was science research institution with a library of 400,000 books. He attracted scientists from around the world to work with him, even including a Chinese scientist. He devised a new theory to substitute for Ptolemy's. At-Tusi's replaced Ptolemy's complicated model with the ingenious devise of picturing the planets as rolling within a series of concentric cylinders (or spheres). This powerful mathematical model (which scientists will readily see is equivalent to a series of linked vectors) is not only easier to understand, but is easier to adapt to the actual observations, whatever they may be.

At-Tusi himself only sought to show that his model could account for the same motions as Ptolemy's, but his student Ibn ash-Shatir used at-Tusi's powerful model to try to resolve observational problems with Ptolemy's system. Most Westerners have not appreciated the degree to which Muslims were concerned with observational issues. They object that it wasn't until Johannes Kepler's day that the minute differences between planetary positions in Kepler's models and Ptolemy's could be discerned. They miss the whole point. A correct theory must account for everything, not just the planetary positions. In the 14th century, Ibn ash-Shatir said that something is wrong with Ptolemy's theory of the moon. If the moon really moved in the big epicycle in Ptolemy's model, then it would move huge distances out and in, out and in. Every time it moves in, it gets closer to the earth and it should appear huge–twice the size of what we observe. He used at-Tusi's powerful theory to account for the moon's size as well as its position. Hundreds of years later Copernicus publishes his theory of the moon moving in circles on circles. He mentions at-Tusi, but he never mentions Ibn ash-Shatir, even though the so-called Copernican system is just Ibn ash-Shatir's system with the order of the circles changed. Despite this overwhelming circumstantial evidence, some Westerners refuse to admit of a link. They protest that Copernicus couldn't read Arabic and Ibn ash-Shatir was never translated into Latin. They forget that Copernicus learned astronomy at the University of Padua. Even though he spoke no Arabic, others on the faculty there knew of the work of Ibn ash-Shatir and, it would be expected, would have mentioned it to the promising young student.

Now that we are out of the heavens lets focus our attention on more terrestrial matters. It is a very well known fact that whilst the superstitioius Europeans were not allowed to dissect bodies, and were diagnosing disease as the result of malignant spirits, and offereing such useful remedies as a thorough bleeding. The Muslims were dissecting bodies, mapping anatomy, and correctly diagnosing diseases. One interesting fact-Muslim Doctors noticed a black substance in the lungs of smokers, which later came to be identified as lung cancer.

These of course are just a few of the many ways that Muslims have helped western society. The very fact of the matter is-Islam is responsible for the renaissance, and all the advancements as a result that are prasied to this day. To claim that Islam has had no effect on Western society is grosslly innacurate at best, and downright false at worse. I seriously suggest you familiarize yourself with a bit of history before making such claims. One could very easily ask where would the west be if it were not for the east, one can not however pose the opposite question, because once you do then we have to acknowledge that the rest of the wolrd would probably be in peace, or at least a great amount more than it is already now. The west has brought only one thing to the table-Their deplorable efficiency at murder death, and exploitation.......... Then again why else were they called the occident??Occidere......To slay!

(this ignorance has been denied as part of a nation-wide program brought to you by the Office for Dis-information Awarness)
www.ais.org...
www.minaret.org...&se1.htm

[edit on 8-8-2005 by phoenixhasrisin]

[edit on 8-8-2005 by phoenixhasrisin]

They would be riding camels around killing each other, being ruled by some sultan. In otherwords, more of the same.

I guess this thread truly shows how heavy the white man's burden really is .

Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go, bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait, in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught sullen peoples,
Half devil and half child.

Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain,
To seek another's profit
And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine,
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
(The end for others sought)
Watch sloth and heathen folly
Bring all your hope to nought.

The White Man's Burden - Rudyard Kipling

phoenixhasrisin,

Great post.

American Mad man, posts like yours bring shame to your country. You claim to love your country but infact you bring it down. Learn about the world and the real history of it, and stop being fuel for the very people you are insulting!

BTW, I am not muslim, from the middle east or anything to do with it, before you rain insults down on me.

This is, by far, the most ethnocentric thread ever. however, its quite interesting.

Before the advent of islam, the middle east was a land of warring tribe factions and sultans, all ambushing and killing eachother. However, once islam became common, the ME untied into one nation in which there was a massive center of lerning and knowledge. new ideas were explored, and the peace and knowledge that islam brought into northren africa calmed many and helped economic trade in the ilsmaic empire.

At this point in time, the west was a corrupt land of surfs, pesants, no middle class and a largly agurian econemy. all of this was persided over by the catholic church which suppresd the advent of new ldeas except for ones that made the church look good. The church also decided to invade the ME, as an expanison of their empire.

The european invasion (Crusades) the islamic empire, and caused rifts and schimis that wouldnever be repaired. while The europeans were driven out of the ME, they would aslo use the knowledge gained from the curasdes to start the renissance.

Apperently the west never learned from rule #3 and the historical examples of afganastan, ruissa, vietnam, korea, imperialism, world war 2, and the curades

NEVER GET INVOLVED IN A LAND WAR IN ASIA

Thank you 7th Chakra-

Neither am I actually. I do have family that are muslim, but not arabic though. I seriously am amazed at the western worlds current understanding of Islam.

Before all this nonsense I remember asking my Uncle about his religion, and why he prayed soo much, and why he went to church on Friday and not Sunday.He always explained to me why he did what he did, and quoted scripture from both the bible, and the quran to help illustrate his point. I was raised with the understanding that Islam was truly the religion of the intellectual. So much study has been undertaken all in the name of Islam, mainly to justify their actions and beliefs through careful study of scripture ,but also to prove that they actually do believe in the same God as the Israelites, and the Christians.

It saddens me now to see this religion demonized, and outright misrepresented, for political purposes. I was raised around the knowledge of dis-information and how the government lied to us, but I can honestly say that I never saw such a glaring example of the proof of this fact before our war on Terror. Since then every attempt has been made to demonize these poor people. The funny thing is..I only mentioned three or four things that Islam is responsible for, I did not even touch on what is known and accepted by academia, or even that which is debated.

I wish people were able to realaize that they were lied to as children, and as such that means that every bit of information that you carry around in their head should be subject to re-evaluation. I mean if we acknowledge that we might of been taught with an agenda in mind, is it not logical then to question all that we were taught in order to differentiate between what was propaganda and what was truth?

Unfortunately that is not what is being done, people would rather rely on their admittadely limited and biased version of history in order to illustrate and further their point which is actually based on nothing but propaganda.

Originally posted by Supraliminal
.

Before the advent of islam, the middle east was a land of warring tribe factions and sultans, all ambushing and killing eachother. However, once islam became common, the ME untied into one nation in which there was a massive center of lerning and knowledge.

Yeah for a while they were, but that still ignores the fact that the same area was united and peaceful (at times) and a place of learning 2000+, & 1000 years before Islam. When was it that the "middle east" started to decline? Oh yeah that's right, After the Greeks had F'd everything up for a few hundred years. Then the Romans had their fun, and the rest as we like to say-"Is history"

I do like the rest of your post though. LMFAO

[edit on 8-8-2005 by phoenixhasrisin]

Originally posted by Supraliminal

Before the advent of islam, the middle east was a land of warring tribe factions and sultans, all ambushing and killing eachother. However, once islam became common, the ME untied into one nation in which there was a massive center of lerning and knowledge. new ideas were explored, and the peace and knowledge that islam brought into northren africa calmed many and helped economic trade in the ilsmaic empire.

peace and knowledge? u got to be kidding me. the Arab armies invaded from Europe to Asia through the use of the Islam which they belive they have the right to spread Islam to all over the globe. sometimes its peaceful but mostly it was conquering that did most of the work.

At this point in time, the west was a corrupt land of surfs, pesants, no middle class and a largly agurian econemy. all of this was persided over by the catholic church which suppresd the advent of new ldeas except for ones that made the church look good. The church also decided to invade the ME, as an expanison of their empire.

Sadly, Islam cannot unite the Bedouin people as well as other for religion is religion but not family. in the end it broke up because people from other parts of the region still envy others and hate each other.

The european invasion (Crusades) the islamic empire, and caused rifts and schimis that wouldnever be repaired. while The europeans were driven out of the ME, they would aslo use the knowledge gained from the curasdes to start the renissance.

u should thank the Muslim Turks for helping Europe recover when the Turks conquered Constantinople.

Apperently the west never learned from rule #3 and the historical examples of afganastan, ruissa, vietnam, korea, imperialism, world war 2, and the curades

the Arabs have already learned that they couldnt conquer the rest of the world. thanks to the Reconquista.

Since I am a small and petty man, and as such, will not allow this attempt at historical revisionism to go unchallenged, and actually hang on the words of the un-educated, I offer the following.

For further proof of everythign I claim please be directed to this site, and the information contained within-Thank you

Inventions
Abul Hasan is distinguished as the inventor of the Telescope, which he
described to be a "Tube, to the extremities of which were attached
diopters".
The Pendulum was invented by Ibn Yunus, a genius in science who lived in the reign of Aziz Billah and Hakim bi-Amr-illah, the Fatimid monarchs of Egypt. The invention of the Pendulum led to the measurement of time by its oscillations. His outstanding work Sijul Akbar al-Hakimi, named after his celebrated patron Hakim bi-Amr-illah, was acknowledged to be the masterpiece on the subject replacing the work of Ptolemy. It was translated into Persian by Omar Khayyam in 1079.

The first watch was made by Kutbi, a renowned watch-maker of his time. During the Abbasid reign the use of a watch became quite common and the famous Harun-ar-Rashid once despatched a watch as a gift to his celebrated contemporary, the French Emperor Charlemagne. At that time a watch was considered a novel thing in Europe and was regarded as an object of wonder. Mustansariya, the well-known university of Baghdad had a unique clock with a dial blue like the sky and a sun which continually moved over its surface denoting the time. Maulana Shibli, the famous Urdu litterateur,
has described a watch of Damascus in the following words: "The watch was kept in the door of a wall. It contained copper plates and twelve doors. There was an Eagle (Bat) standing in the Ist and the last plate. At the end of each hour, these two eagles lay down on the copper plates and hence a sound was produced to show the time. At twelve all the doors were closed. This system was being repeated continuously". The construction of water clocks was also common in Islamic Countries. "The Arabs were skilful in the construction of clepsydras and water clocks with automata," says a European writer.

The invention of Mariners Compass, which revolutionised sea borne commerce and oceanic shipping and enabled the Arabs to roam over the stormy seas in quest of new lands and additional markets for their commodities, is essentially a contribution of the Muslims to the world of science. Knowledge about the properties of the needle, can no doubt be traced to Chinese sources, but putting it into working shape, in the form of a mariners' compass, was the achievement of Muslim scientists. The compass was probably invented for the purpose of finding out the Qibla for Prayers.

Mir Fatehullah Khan is known to history as the inventor of gun and
gunpowder. The presumption that gunpowder was first made by the Chinese does not stand the test of historical research. Writing in his book Arab Civilization, the author says that "gunpowder was a great invention of the Arabs who were already using guns". Guns were used by Arabs in 1340 A.D. in the defence of Al-Bahsur, when Franzdol besieged it. The statement of Dr. Leabon about the invention of gunpowder by the Arabs is further corroborated by Mr. Scott in his well-known work, History of the Moorish Empire in Spain.

It has been acknowledged by Joseph Hell in his book, Arab Civilization,
that the distinction of inventing photography goes to Ibn al-Hashem, who is not only credited with its invention but also its development. Muhammad Musa, a great scholar of geography, has the unique distinction of being the inventor of an instrument by which the earth could be measured. He also invented the "Astrolabe". These novel instruments invented by him have been preserved in the Museum of Madrid (Spain).

A unique instrument was invented by Abu Solet Umayya in 1134 A.D. through which a sunken ship would be raised--which greatly helped in the salvage expeditions of mediaeval times.

The credit for manufacturing soap goes to Arab chemists, who introduced it to the world. The first paper in Islamic countries was manufactured in 794 A.D. in Baghdad by Yusuf Bin Omar. The paper manufactured in Arab countries was of superior quality than that made in Europe. In the manufacture of cloth, Muslims particularly in Spain exhibited marvelous skill and taste. Their woven cloth captured almost all the big markets of the world and was considered to be the finest as well as extremely durable.

Al-Masudi who died in Cairo in 957 A.D. may be called the "Pliny of the
Arabs" In his celebrated work The Meadows of Gold, he has described an earthquake, and the first windmill which was also invented by a Muslim.
Giralda or "The Tower of Seville", was the first observatory in Europe. It was built in 1190 A.D., in the Spanish town of Seville under the
supervision of the celebrated Mathematician, Jabir Ibn Afiah. It was meant for the observation of heavenly bodies. It was later turned into a belfry by Christian conquerors, who, after the expulsion of the Moors, did notknow how to use it.
Bold experiments and unique innovations in the field of mathematics were carried out by Muslim mathematicians who developed this science to an exceptionally high degree. Algebra may be said to have been invented by the Greeks, but according to Oelsner, "it was confined to furnishing amusement for the plays of the goblet" Muslims developed it and applied it to higher purposes. They invented spherical trigonometry, discovered the tangent and were first, "to introduce the sine of arc in Trigonometrically Calculations" Zero is an invaluable addition made to mathematical science by the Muslims. They have also shown remarkable progress in mathematical geography.

The Muslims have made a lasting contribution to the development of Medical Science. Razi (Rhazes), Ibn Sina (Avicenna), and Abu Ali al-Hasan (Alhazen) were the greatest medical scholars of mediaeval times. Al-Razi was the inventor of "Seton" in Surgery and the author of Al-Judari wal
Hasbak, an authentic book dealing with measles and small pox. Avicenna wrote Al-Qanun Jil Tib known as Cannon, which was the most widely studied medical work of mediaevel times and was reprinted more than twenty times during the last 30 years of the 15th century in many different languages.
Alhazen was the world's greatest authority on "optics". The contagious
character of the plague and its remedies were discovered by Ibn Katina, a Moorish Physician.

Ibn Firnas is credited with making glass from stones. He had constructed his home as a sort of planetarium where one could see stars, clouds and even lightning. According to Hitti 'Ibn Firnas was the first man in Arab history to make a scientific attempt at flight. His flying equipment consisted of a suit of feathers with wings, which, we are told carried him a long distance, in the air. When he alighted, however, he hurt himself because his suit was not provided with a tail.
www.contactpakistan.com...

Originally posted by Netchicken
Islam seems a repressive religion stifling development, I would suspect that things would be the same as 500 / 1000 years ago.

[edit on 7-8-2005 by Netchicken]

Like our western Religions do not try and oppose medical advancements. Like Catholic law teaches its wrong to wear a comdom therefore stop the spread of Sexually transmitted dieases. Religion in Europe in the medievil times killed out of fear more then anything else, innocents were murdered by the hundreds because of religion (Within Europe). Witch hunts are a prime example, example of how primative the religious mind was in Europe at that time.

Islamic terrorists are to Islam as God serving Preists who rape young boys are to Christianity/Catholics. As Catholic terroists the IRA were to the Catholic church.

The REAL question is where would all of human kind be if we didn't interact and share our ideas?

[edit on 8-8-2005 by 7th_Chakra]

Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
American Mad man, posts like yours bring shame to your country. You claim to love your country but infact you bring it down. Learn about the world and the real history of it, and stop being fuel for the very people you are insulting!

BTW, I am not muslim, from the middle east or anything to do with it, before you rain insults down on me.

Learn about the world?

Lets see - last time I checked, automobiles were an invention of the the western world, thus what form of transportation would they be left with?

Camels.

Who rules the largest and most wealthy nation in the ME? Thats right, a sultan.

Who, historically has ruled the ME? Sultans.

What exactly would change?

Originally posted by American Mad Man

Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
American Mad man, posts like yours bring shame to your country. You claim to love your country but infact you bring it down. Learn about the world and the real history of it, and stop being fuel for the very people you are insulting!

BTW, I am not muslim, from the middle east or anything to do with it, before you rain insults down on me.

Learn about the world?

Lets see - last time I checked, automobiles were an invention of the the western world, thus what form of transportation would they be left with?

Camels.

Who rules the largest and most wealthy nation in the ME? Thats right, a sultan.

Who, historically has ruled the ME? Sultans.

What exactly would change?

You fail to see the point. They have contributed in many ways, as has the west. Together west and east has learnt from each other in different fields to produce and share different things.

Like you might be better at fixing your friends bike whilst he does DIY in your house. You both helped each other with different things.

They might still be on camels, but we would be without maths. They make, we build on it. We make, others build on it. For automobiles to be made someone had to invent the wheel yes? you need oil from which part of the world?? see how it works?

You know for yourself the sharing of ideas builds bigger and better things.

Why did the west make Automobiles? because Romans built them roads so the idea was easier to come up with?? because roads were mostly on flat areas so the idea again came easier? in the middle east sand and desert are not really any good for cars so the thought wasn't really there, do you agree? Why do cold nations build the best things for keeping themselves warm? and warm nations for staying cool?

End of the day Humans share ideas about their environment, culture, ethics and spirituality. This helps us evolve and incorperate what we learn from others into our own thinking, making us smarter and more 'world wise'. We are drifting away from that today, as we have amazing potential to progress together, west and east and amazing potential to destroy each other.

Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
We are drifting away from that today, as we have amazing potential to progress together, west and east and amazing potential to destroy each other.

Not to be confrontational, but I have previously mentioned terms used to descirbe the west. Could it be that each half plays a signifigant part in the evolution, progress, and destruction of the human race that could not exist without the other?

The occident has for sure served it's purpose, let us not be decieved as to what it's purpose was though. They were not labeled the slayers for nothing. The sun does not die in the west for no reason. The land of the setting sun, and our hero riding off into the sunset, share more similarities than differences......

Do not be fooled, the truth is most easily hidden in plain sight, and it is all there in plain sight to be seen, does anyone really want to deal with that though?

Americanmadman,

BTW, I've been to Egypt and the Pyramids. I have seen the outskirts of the Sahara. If you were stuck in the middle of that desert with no roads, a Camel would be more valuable to you then any car on Earth.

[edit on 8-8-2005 by 7th_Chakra]

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin

Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
We are drifting away from that today, as we have amazing potential to progress together, west and east and amazing potential to destroy each other.

Not to be confrontational, but I have previously mentioned terms used to descirbe the west. Could it be that each half plays a signifigant part in the evolution, progress, and destruction of the human race that could not exist without the other?

The occident has for sure served it's purpose, let us not be decieved as to what it's purpose was though. They were not labeled the slayers for nothing. The sun does not die in the west for no reason. The land of the setting sun, and our hero riding off into the sunset, share more similarities than differences......

Do not be fooled, the truth is most easily hidden in plain sight, and it is all there in plain sight to be seen, does anyone really want to deal with that though?

Sorry, its late in the UK and I am feeling tired. I don't get what you mean?

Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
You fail to see the point. They have contributed in many ways, as has the west. Together west and east has learnt from each other in different fields to produce and share different things.

Like you might be better at fixing your friends bike whilst he does DIY in your house. You both helped each other with different things.

They might still be on camels, but we would be without maths. They make, we build on it. We make, others build on it. For automobiles to be made someone had to invent the wheel yes? you need oil from which part of the world?? see how it works?

You know for yourself the sharing of ideas builds bigger and better things.

Why did the west make Automobiles? because Romans built them roads so the idea was easier to come up with?? because roads were mostly on flat areas so the idea again came easier? in the middle east sand and desert are not really any good for cars so the thought wasn't really there, do you agree? Why do cold nations build the best things for keeping themselves warm? and warm nations for staying cool?

End of the day Humans share ideas about their environment, culture, ethics and spirituality. This helps us evolve and incorperate what we learn from others into our own thinking, making us smarter and more 'world wise'. We are drifting away from that today, as we have amazing potential to progress together, west and east and amazing potential to destroy each other.

You fail to see the point. You got on my ass for saying they would still be riding camels, killing each other, and being ruled by Sultans.

Each of those statements is correct.

As pointed out, cars were a western invention. It doesn't matter if they contributed one part of it in the wheel (and BTW, oil was first discovered in the US, in my home state of PA. The US also has the LARGEST OIL RESERVES IN THE WORLD, located in the midwest - check the peek oil threads if you don't believe me).

Humans have proven that they will always kill each other, so again - that statement is correct.

And again, they were ruled by sultans then, and they are still ruled by them now.

So as I said, it would have been more of the same.