The Great Seal on the back of the dollar bill is not a masonic symbol!

I don't know what insights a dollar get you anymore, but if you fold a $20 a certain way, you get to see exactly what the Masons are up to.

well im sorry sebatwerk, french is my main language and im in a french lodge, all my material is in french and all the terminology i use is in french. I master english pretty well but i ignore the terminology in english. So please leave me alone you are annoying. Who the hell do you think you are? the defender of masonry? i dont really care wheter you think im a real mason or not. But im sure a lot of people on this forum will be interested in what ive got to say.

here are digital cameras pictures of my apprentice and companion certificates.




so now sebatwerk can you STFU and stop wasting my time?

Originally posted by Cug
Don't bother scanning, if your a member of the Memphis and Mizraim rites, they won't consider you a Mason anyway.

They consider the Memphis and Mizraim rites as irregular
The fact your lodge allows both men and women will also cause them to refuse to acknowledge you as a Mason.

Politics

i seriously think thats retarded. but you are right. And the fact that there are (cute) women in our rite makes the rituals involving sexual practices much more interesting, dont you think?

Originally posted by moonchild
i dont really care wheter you think im a real mason or not.

Your affiliation (if you even belong to what you claim) is considered irregular, and there fore not recognized by any of the "Regular" Grand Lodges anywhere in the world. For the edification of those that are unaware of what this means, a member of an "irregular lodge" may not:

Sit in a Regular Lodge.
Hold Masonic intercourse (yes, that's the term used, it means talk about it) with a Regular Mason.
Apply for affiliation with any Regular appendant body (Scottish or York Rite, Shriners, etc.).
Apply for any relief from a Regular Mason, Lodge, or Grand Lodge as a Mason, we would always provide relief on the grounds of Charity.

The reason they can't do these things is because quite simply, they are not Masons. There are a number of irregular or clandestine lodges and grand lodges throughout the world, and it is considered the responsibility of the individual Mason to ensure that they don't interact (Masonically) with such organizations.

To bolster my point, I'll call on the United Grand Lodge of England (UGLE), and their list of Commonwealth Grand Lodges that they recognize... I don't see "yours" there.

www.grandlodge-england.org...

so now sebatwerk can you STFU and stop wasting my time?

That kind of posting is not acceptable here at ATS, you are a fairly new member, but the Terms & conditions apply to all, regardless of length of membership here. I would ask that you please rephrase it.

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
How's that for a seal?

Mirthful, that has to be the absolute ugliest animal I have ever seen!

Originally posted by Mirthful Me

The reason they can't do these things is because quite simply, they are not Masons. There are a number of irregular or clandestine lodges and grand lodges throughout the world, and it is considered the responsibility of the individual Mason to ensure that they don't interact (Masonically) with such organizations.

OK I'm an outsider and I have a honest comment. I think most of the Masons here don't see me as a Mason basher, but I really don't think moonchild has been given a fair shake here. I understand the Freemasons concern over, for lack of a better term, "Trademark" issues. But this is not a Masonic forum, and while you believe you can't interact Masonically. You can (and should IMHO) still act like gentlemen which I haven't seen happen in regards to this poster.

I can see nothing but good come to this forum by having yet another "Secret Society" share their views here and Deny Ignorance.

moonchild, for peace's sake maybe when you refer to yourself as a Mason you could call yourself a M and M Mason or something like that? Just so things like this don't interupt the discussion? Yea, it's a pain in the butt and you probably don't see or agree with why you should do it, but if you could it would be very nice.

Come to think of it a thread about the Memphis and Mizraim rites could be interesting.

That Masonic Certificate is very interesting.
There's the Eye of Horus, an Ankh, the Swastika, Cross bound by a circle( not sure of its type), the Sun, a Crecent Moon, and the three unique corners of the triangle.
I have to say strange, strange, strange.

Is is a blending of all cultures? The Eye of Horus comes from Egypt. The Swastika comes from the Far East cultures and the others I'm not too sure.

[edit on 8-8-2005 by lostinspace]

Originally posted by moonchild
So please leave me alone you are annoying. Who the hell do you think you are? the defender of masonry? i dont really care wheter you think im a real mason or not. But im sure a lot of people on this forum will be interested in what ive got to say.

haha oh man, thank you for that!

here are digital cameras pictures of my apprentice and companion certificates.

These pictures just freak me out. So moonchild, what's your reason for becoming a Freemason? I'm interested. I just want to know what attracts people so much with this "Fraternity/Brotherhood" and all these sacred symbols, oaths, etc.

Originally posted by eudaimonia

These pictures just freak me out. So moonchild, what's your reason for becoming a Freemason? I'm interested. I just want to know what attracts people so much with this "Fraternity/Brotherhood" and all these sacred symbols, oaths, etc.

Ive always been interested in the occult / spiritual stuff. i started my quest for thruth (sorry to sound ike a new age princess) when i was 17 when i started reading conspiracy theory books. i was quite interested into the subject and i got a growing interest into the spiritual contents some authors were exposing. I then started to research on those occult societies those conspiracy authors are so afraid of.i recommend book by uthors such as aleister crowley, franz bardon, bayrd spalding, etc. for they are quite interesting.

Joining freemasonry was the next logical step. I went at the local scottish rite temple and passed an interview for admittance and got initiated. i was 22 at the time. 3 years and three degrees later, i felt like i was losing my time because the scottish rite doesnt dispense any deep mystical education. its a chritian rite, the bible in lodge is omnipresent. it was interesting nonetheless, but too ''light'' for my taste. it was however the path i had to undertake so i searched alternatives to the scottish rite. I stumbled upon a small underground lodge of the MM rite (the one im in now). I've met with the grandmaster a few times and we quickly become very good friends due to the fact that im young and curious and hes old and filled with knowledge and wisdom. The word master has a lot more meaning now than when i was in the scottish rite because now he has something worthwhile to teach. (our teachings now are basically the same has the scottish rite, with an added part with various content like crowleyan and golden dawn stuff, kaballistic rituals, oriental religions practices, christian and muslim mysticism (word in french is soufhi,) etc etc). I eventually left the SR to join the MM rite.

The retarted part is now most of the SR lodges in america wont recognise me has a mason, even though the basic teaching they receive is also dispensed in my MM lodge. however, im recognised all over europe, africa, asia and south america (the clipsas recognises us). I will actually do some research on why the is there a stupid little war between the memphis misraim and the scottish rite, but im sure that the fact that we require priestesses (women) in our rite and we are versed into the ancient, evil ''black magic'' (lol) part of masonry while the scottish rite is maintained by old conservative anglo saxons have something to do with it.

here is something taken from the CLIPSAS website that i am glad to abide to. I wish all the hardcore SR masons here would do the same.

www.clipsas.com...

Centre of Liaison and Information of masonic Powers Signatories of Strasbourg Appeal

At the initiative of the Grand Orient de France, CLIPSAS was created in Strasbourg on January 22nd 1961 by eleven Sovereign Masonic Powers which, confronted with increasing intransigeance and debarments of certain Obediences, decided to appeal to all Free-Masons of the world in order to unite them in a true and indissoluble Universal Chain of Union, in the respect of their sovereignty :

APPEAL OF STRASBOURG

The Sovereign Masonic Powers meeting in Strasbourg on January 22nd 1961

CONSIDERING

1. that it is imperative to restore among all Freemasons the Chain of Union broken by deplorable debarments contrary to Anderson's Constitution of 1723,

2. that, for this purpose, it is important to seek together the conditions which determine the quality of Freemason, taking into account all traditions, all Rites, all symbols, all beliefs and in the respect of absolute freedom of conscience,

BELIEVE

that the fact of invoking the Grand Architect of the Universe, and of requiring that one of the Three Lights be the Sacred Book of a revealed religion should be left to the assessment of each Lodge and of each Obedience.

DECIDE AND DECLARE

To establish fraternal relations between themselves and to open the doors of their Temples -without condition of reciprocity- to any Freemason (man or woman) having received the Light in a just and perfect Lodge, provided that the masonic specificity of the Lodge or of the Obedience allows for these visits.

APPEAL

to all Freemasons to join this Chain of Union based on a total freedom of conscience and a perfect mutual tolerance.

[edit on 8-8-2005 by moonchild]

moonchild,

Have you ever thought about the O.T.O.?

Disclamer: I'm a (Hopefully) future member of the O.T.O.

[edit on 8/8/2005 by Cug]

the venerable of our lodge was involved with the OTO in canada in the 1980's. He gladly includes OTO teachings in our education. I have yet to study on the subject fruther.

[edit on 8-8-2005 by moonchild]

Originally posted by moonchild
the venerable of our lodge was involved with the OTO in canada in the 1980's.

Very likely, the Montreal O.T.O. Lodge (Now gone) used to meet in a MM lodge, I'll bet it's yours.

BTW for the "regular" Masons, I now have zero doubt he is connected with the MM Masons. This is something someone faking it would not know. (Just too obscure IMHO).

[edit on 8/8/2005 by Cug]

Originally posted by moonchild
I seriously think thats retarded. but you are right. And the fact that there are (cute) women in our rite makes the rituals involving sexual practices much more interesting, dont you think?

I stumbled upon a small underground lodge of the MM rite (the one im in now).

I think that says it all, definetely clandestine and not representative of Freemasonry.

[edit on 8-8-2005 by AngelWitch]

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by Raist
My point is that it is the all seeing eye on the back of the dollar. Even some masons have stated that is is. Being above an unfinisjed pyramid does not change the fact of what it is. It could be above a rose and still be the all seeing eye. You could go and state that the unfinished pyramid is not a masonic symbol and with that I would agree.

I have never said that it was not the all-seeing-eye, I simply said that the eye above the unfinished pyramid is NOT a masonic symbol! As for the all-seeing eye, it has been used as a symbol by numerous cultures, groups and organizations. Even if it is a masonic all-seeing eye on the dollar bill, that's an awfully small part of the seal to make the whole thing "masonic", dontcha think?

As for attacking you I was merely pointing out two very closely related threads in wich you take two different stands.

Which threads? What opposing stands?

I can not prove you to be or not to be a mason. Wether or not you truely are is not my worries. We are on an internet disscusion board you can claim any thing you want and no one can prove different unless they know you as a real life, flesh and blood person.

Being a mason, it's not hard to know if others are also masons just by their posts. The language they use, the things they say, etc. can validate a mason, or it can give away a cowan (as was the case recently). But for non-masons, you are right, it is not possible to know if someone is lying or not.

I was not attacking you just pointing out that the all seeing eye is on the back of the dollar. If you think I was attacking you notify a mod and have them read my posts to see what they think.

By discussing me and my status as a mason, you are derailing the thread and attacking me. I would rather you discuss the topic.

I never said the whole seal was a masonic symbol either. I clearly stated that it would still be the all seeing eye even if above a rose. But actualy the eye on the back of the dollar finishes the pyramid as the eye it's self is in a triangle.

I don't see you speaking any differently then most others on the board. Your not saying anything speacial that I've not seen before nor are you speaking in a different manner.

Now as for how the great seal was explained to me is this.
The 13 layers of the unfinished pyramid are to represent the 13 orginal colonies an unfinished country that can only grow and get better. The all seeing eye is to represent the eye of God watching over us.

Now why is it viewed as a masonic symbol? Because the masons seem to have some fetish with egyption symbolism. They use the all seeing eye (Eye of Horus), they have used the ankh, pyramids and a few others wich I'm unable to think of at this time. So when ppl see the all seeing eye and either a whole or unfinished pyramid they will assume masonic, as several of the forfathers of the country were indeed masons.

The term ANNUIT COEPTIS above it means He has favored our undertakings.

The term NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM means new order of the ages.

Put them together and you get He has favored our undertakings for a new order of the ages.

Originally posted by Cug
BTW for the "regular" Masons, I now have zero doubt he is connected with the MM Masons. This is something someone faking it would not know. (Just too obscure IMHO).

Unless his dad or older brother are M&M masons, and this kid (moonchild really does talk like a child, I wouldn't be one bit surprised if he was in high school or somewhere around there) is just taking information from them and posting it here. It's VERY odd that he knows some things so well, and then has absolutely NO knowledge of some of the most basic parts of Freemasonry.

Originally posted by Raist
Now why is it viewed as a masonic symbol? Because the masons seem to have some fetish with egyption symbolism. They use the all seeing eye (Eye of Horus), they have used the ankh, pyramids and a few others wich I'm unable to think of at this time. So when ppl see the all seeing eye and either a whole or unfinished pyramid they will assume masonic, as several of the forfathers of the country were indeed masons.

Everything you had been saying up until this point was right on the money, but then you went off in the completely wrong direction! Freemasonry makes very little, if any, use of Egyptian symbols! None of the symbols you mentioned are used by Freemasonry, and only the advanced Scottish Rite degrees use some forms of Egyptian teachings.

The all-seeing-eye has nothing to do with Horus, MANY cultures have always used the eye as a symbol of Deity, and they did not all originate in Egypt.

The term ANNUIT COEPTIS above it means He has favored our undertakings.

The term NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM means new order of the ages.

Put them together and you get He has favored our undertakings for a new order of the ages.

You are again on the right path, but none of the Egyptian things you mentioned is correct. This is exactly why we say that the symbols on the back of the dollar are not masonic: out of all those things, only the all-seeing eye is used as a masonic symbol. But many other organizations also used the same symbol!

In fine, those symbols have no masonic significance whatsoever.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Unless his dad or older brother are M&M masons, and this kid (moonchild really does talk like a child, I wouldn't be one bit surprised if he was in high school or somewhere around there)

IMHO very unnecessary statement (especially from someone wise enough to be able to get to such ranks in the masonic orders) just like some others by moonchild

i thought the title of this thread was promising and went through it well i had to revise my opinion, instead of having an interesting exchange of views about this subject it ended up in something quite the opposite (apart from a few interesting contributions that actually made things clearer for me)

I'm sorry but weren't many of the founding fathers confirmed masons ?

George Washington, the dude on the front of that one dollar bill is a confirmed mason and yet you mean to tell me that the all-seeing-eye on the back of that bill has nothing to do with masonry ?

"Um... yeah the front of that bill is masonic but not the back of it. It has nothing to do with us"

It may not be the symbol of masonry you guys use when you get together and do whatever it is you guys do, but, masons put it there didn't they? Hence it's Masonic, and there's no refuting that in any way.

Unless the point of this thread is to say that they didn't have anything to do with it being there?
"Yeah, it just sort of popped up there".

No Freemason is bound by an oath to lie.

Yeah, just stagger the facts a bit right?

Edit: spelling

[edit on 9-8-2005 by joyouslyhumored]

Concerning the Rites of Memphis and Mitzraim:

It's not that regular Masons necessarily consider these Rites clandestine. After all, the original Rites of Memphis and Mitzraim were founded by regular Masons, and their membership was composed of regular Masons, all of whom were regularly initiated, passed, and raised in recognized Lodges.

But over a period of time, these Rites, for various reasons, went defunct. Today, there are numerous occult and/or pseudo-Masonic organizations calling themselves "Rite of Memphis", or "Rite of Mitzraim", or both, none of whom have any actual historical connection to the original Masonic bodies of the same name.

The original Rites which bore these names followed the Ancient Landmarks: they required a belief in the existence of the Supreme Architect of the World, they only admitted men who had been made Masons in regular Blue Lodges, etc. Indeed, Marconis de Negre, founder of the Rite of Memphis, would probably flip in his grave if he knew about some of the activities of the organizations who have adopted the name of the Rite he created.

This is not to say that there is anything necessarily wrong with the organization that Moonchild belongs to; only that, because it doesn't follow the Ancient Landmarks of Masonry (which defines what Masonry is, and makes it unique), it is not a Masonic organization. Just because it is not legitimately Masonic does not make it "bad"; nevertheless, just because its members call it "Masonic" doesn't mean it is so.

[edit on 9-8-2005 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by joyouslyhumored
I'm sorry but weren't many of the founding fathers confirmed masons ?

Yes.

George Washington, the dude on the front of that one dollar bill is a confirmed mason and yet you mean to tell me that the all-seeing-eye on the back of that bill has nothing to do with masonry ?

Washington had nothing to do with the creation and adoption of the Great Seal of the United States. The Committee that handled its creation had only one Mason as a member, being Brother Benjamin Franklin. Dr. Franklin had actually proposed a totally different Seal, being that of the Children of Israel shown safely on the shore, while the waves of the Red Sea crashed over Pharoah's army. The motto was to be "Rebellion Against Tyranny Is Obedience To God", or the latin equivalent.

The Seal that was actually adopted was designed by non-Masons.

"Um... yeah the front of that bill is masonic but not the back of it. It has nothing to do with us"

Neither the front nor the back is "Masonic". The front depicts the portrait of a guy who happened to be a Mason (Washington), but certainly that doesn't make it "Masonic".