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The Great UFO Debate

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posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 11:11 PM
Thank you for your response EarthSister. Although I have to admit I am still skeptical of the information you posted. For example, you said that aliens offered us aid in feeding the worlds hungry, curing the ill etc... Yet the powers that be only wanted weapons. I cannot understand the logic in why they would refuse any type of assistance, as any type of higher technology, whether it be militiristic or not, has with it the inherent possibility that it could possibly lead to some other new type of weaponry.

On the other hand, I have heard the argument before that people say "Hey, if the aliens want us to know about them why dont they just land?" It does seem logical by human reasoning however I would argue that if there really are alien creatures visiting the earth, and that they began as life somewhere else in the universe completely seperate from life that may have begun here on earth, we cant expect to comprehend what their motives are or what they are seeking. By the very nature of being an alien being; their motives are probably alien to us and we may not comprehend or understand the whats and whys of their motivations.

To be perfectly honest, I am skeptical of alot of things, like agreements between humans and aliens, channelers etc... However I do appreciate you taking the time to explain your position to me. It helps me look at the picture ina broader sense.

posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 11:31 PM
I believe they've been here for eons, keeping an eye on things and more than likely toying with our genetics and our societies on a massive scale.

People like to talk about UFO's as some sort of abstraction. Like it's just "unidentified" craft, that, by most accounts, can perform mind-boggling maneuvers and incredible feats of aeronautic power and finesse. What are the implications? IF UFO's exist? The history of sightings by people of every stripe and walk of life leave little question in the minds of many who study Ufology. The tagline for the recent War of the Worlds film was "They're Already Here". I for one believe that they are indeed already here. How long have they been here? What have they been up to regarding our little planet? Are they going to simply land on the White House lawn next week and change the course of history forever?

The biggest question of all, in my mind, is "Are we not alone?". If the alien question were answered once and for all in a "Mars Attacks" kind of landing scenario, wouldn't that be THE defining moment for history on Earth?

The implications are that there are numerous planets sustaining life n our neck of the galactic woods. And these civilizations of sentient bipeds have the ability to make craft able to traverse the massive distances between the stars. Consider. The nearest star is Proxima Centauri. It is 4.2 light years away. A light year is the distance a photon of light travels in one year. That distance is 6 trillion miles. So, Proxima Centauri is roughly 25 trillion miles away.

No way does Proxima Centauri have a planet like Earth orbiting it. But somewhere in the local Constellations there must be a handful of planets sustaining civilizations far advanced over our own. And these alien races have craft that must be able to travel many times the speed of light, like the "warp factor" of the Star Trek series. Or else, they leave their planet and live for decades aboard their craft while shooting off on a course for Earth at the dreary speed of light. So if they live 200 light years away, that means 200 years of travel, at light speed, just visit our humble planet.

The implications? Think of a race of global foreigners able to flit about the stars at speeds magnifying light speed. Mein Gott! They must have reached the very limits of technology to have such vehicles available to them. And these super craft which leave planets literally hundreds of trillions of miles away eventually come here and are seen in our skies as the UFO's everyone is talking about. At least everyone who likes to talk about UFO's. While we piddle about near space in our clumsy, antiquated space shuttles, vastly superior races might be using Earth as a way-station to points far beyond. Like a gas station on a desert highway perhaps. A mere curiosity, our entire world.

Or, secret government outfits are creating these super-craft that are occasionally spotted by some sky-gazer. And we're all alone among the tens of billions (estimate 300-400 billion with a B) of stars in our galaxy and all this talk about other living worlds is just for fruits and nutjobs. There's more to discuss perhaps but if anyone has any specific questions about the whys and wherefores, feel free to ask. I'm feeling a little starstruck tonight and if anyone cares I'd be willing to debate and or discuss.

posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 11:36 PM
William One Sac

Skeptical is the best way to be. It's infinitely better than seeing an alien craft or an alien being, and thinking that it proves that everything horrible you've ever heard about alien life must be true.

I don't understand very much between the alien races and the leading govts, just a little and in a simple way. I think the leading govts have everything set up a certain precarious way, over their own heads. They have made a series of serious mistakes and now they can't turn them around on their own. Politics and secret crimes have everything too twisted up.

I stick close to what I am taught. I am not a channeler and I don't support or agree with most people who make claims in the related fields. My alien experiences are physical and spiritual, and my husband and I are together for almost every encounter we have with our alien contacts.

What is happening to me and how and why, I understand very well. When others just can't believe it, or even imagine it, I understand that too. If it wasn't happening to me, I wouldn't believe it. I would believe in something, but I would not know what that something should be.

[edit on 8/6/2005 by EarthSister]

posted on Aug, 7 2005 @ 12:51 AM

I have a little more on my site about First Contact. The page is called First Contact.

Ummm Earthsister....what's the link to your site?

As to the Great UFO Debate. What debate? No matter what evidence is provided and how concrete it is, debunkers' minds are closed to it and will scream 'fake' at the top of their lungs. Even if an alien was captured and brought in chains to their door, they would say it was someone in a alien costume. Better to beat our heads against a wall, at least we might make and impression on it.

Do aliens exist? YES, to think we are the only living beings in this vast universe is ludicrious.

Are they visiting us on Earth? Yes, they have been watching over us for centuries. Ever since man learned to paint on cave walls, UFO's have been depicted in written documents around the world.

Where's the proof? Ummm...Get your head out of the sand! What do you think was going on in Mexico? Fleets of UFO's have been seen all over Mexico and have been recorded by local TV stations there.

The proof is out there and is being shown to you but you have to open your eyes to see it.

posted on Aug, 7 2005 @ 01:40 AM
I understand why it is hard for people to believe that the US government, or any government would even attempt to hide something like this. I was brought up to believe that the USA was the greatest Country in the World because it was run 'By the People, For the People'. But as I grew up I came to realize that no matter how high our intentions might be we still made horrible mistakes sometimes. Arrogant, power-hungry men have subverted the very core of what America is supposed to stand for more than once.

The reason there is fear of what knowing about Alien Life would do to us is not just based on 'The War of the Worlds' radio broadcast, it has been supported by serious scientific studies time and time again. One very famous one was done by the Rand Corp. I do not have a link to it but perhaps someone else can supply that. These are the people that those in government listen to, and then on top of that they add their own personal fears as well.

Humans fear the Unknown, that is an acknowledge fact. Humans also have a psychological need to feel that we are 'it', the top of the food chain, masters of all we survey. I rarely quote anything from the Bible but even there you see this, there is something about god giving us Dominion over the Earth. This sort of attitude has lead to the extinction of more species that we can count. What gives us the right to live at the expense of others, nothing, but we can, and we do.

I date the start of the modern UFO era to 1942, 'The Battle of LA'. The world was at War. How could the government acknowledge what happened that night? How could they possibly say 'Well we have no idea where that ship came from but we do know that nothing we did even slowed it down'. The answer is that they could not. That is when the secrecy began.

As time passed these craft demonstrated time and time again that they were far beyond our ability to cope. We could not stop them from viewing our most 'secure' installations, we could not shoot them down, we could indeed do nothing at all. Consider the military mindset for a moment. They are charged with the defense of this Nation. What else could they do but keep this knowledge away from the public?

As artifacts, and data, were accumulated they found there was a tremdous power inherent in them. It does not matter how much hard technology we got from them, although I think we did learn some very specific things, the mere knowledge is power. You cannot invent or discover something unless you try. If you assume something is impossible then you will not even look.

People have asked 'How can they fly across the Galaxy and then crash?'. My answer is always the same, Murphy and advancement does not mean perfection. But in truth I do not think there really have been many crashes at all and the physical evidence has never been huge. It has not taken all that much effort to grab what has been found. We have many more planes and Helos crash and no one wonders how we manage to clean those up.

But if I could place in your hand a piece of metal, and you knew it was not from Earth think of what that would do to your mind. Right now all our Science tells us there is no way to travel even to the nearest Star in anything less than what, a 100 years or so? But somehow they do, and if I could prove it, then I could get people to start to look at how that might be accomplished.

Once something has been deemed a secret it is very tough to ever change that. To do so you have to prove that none of the original conditions apply. To this day there are many documents from WWII that are still classified. If you wish another example, as of the 1980s, there is still a large mass of Tesla's papers that are classified and he did his work at the turn of the Century so we are approaching 100 years. What could he possibly have found that would require this? I have no idea but this Tesla information comes from a book that is by no means an investigation into the mysteries that surround this great inventor. 'Tesla: Man out of Time' is a very well researched biograpy that avoids any sort of speculation, the author sticks to the facts. Even she was shocked when she found out about the classified papers.

So we were asked for 3 reasons, and here they are:

1) Fear. We were not, and might not be ready to have it proven to us that we are indeed not 'It'. This is backed up by some of the most respected social scientists and think tanks. It is also supported by basic psychology.

2) Power. Whatever we may have learned, the mere knowledge in no uncertain terms that interstellar travel is possible yields a serious study of things we would not otherwise even consider. Knowledge is Power.

3) The nature of a Bureaucracy. Once something has been classified it is likely to remain so until someone proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is time for it to become public.


[edit on 8/7/05 by Alexander Tau]

posted on Aug, 7 2005 @ 03:00 AM
SETI is absolute nosense. A design to push Ufologists into the wrong search direction (see Gazrok's avatar).
I have been listening to Dr Shostak for years upon years with his foolishness and lack of space results from his own telescope efforts.

SETIs a sham and the only thing it seems to be doing which it should fifteen years ago is working on light transmission reception and decoding which is more likely a UFO communication media.

Scientists, most of which, must 'deny ignoance' in that they will lose federal funding for even the briefest positive metion on UFO/EBE reality. Some even die, eg Bill McDonald.

I respect all opinions but have trouble holding down my dinner when SETI pops up.

Funding Cancellation or Death = Scientists Supporting UFOs being here


posted on Aug, 7 2005 @ 08:02 AM

Originally posted by GreatAncientWhiteDragon

I have a little more on my site about First Contact. The page is called First Contact.

Ummm Earthsister....what's the link to your site?

As to the Great UFO Debate. What debate? No matter what evidence is provided and how concrete it is, debunkers' minds are closed to it and will scream 'fake' at the top of their lungs. Even if an alien was captured and brought in chains to their door, they would say it was someone in a alien costume. Better to beat our heads against a wall, at least we might make and impression on it.

Consider too, some of the foremost debunkers are those creating and maintaining the conspiracy, which relies on confusion and exasperation of the thoughtful, intelligent publics. I think the term is psuedoskeptic. You never know who is an agent of the secret govt, or what they too have been led to believe of the National cause against alien life.

Secret govt and special interest groups create hoaxes for the purpose of debunking the subject itself as well as the reputations of those who share their true knowledge and experience. To prevent the truth from standing out, they add more decoys to the pond. The decoys don't have to be good, the public just has to be confused and willing to take the bait.

My site is The First Contact page is linked from the News page.

posted on Aug, 7 2005 @ 09:02 AM
While we are highlighting the shortcomings and general corruption of our leading govts, especially the USA, which we really need to do in order to define the snag between our race and all the visiting races, I would just like to mention that I still believe in the ultimate morality and integrity of humanity.

We don't need to rebuild our whole system of govt, we just need to move a few key bad apples out at a time, and a few key, good, honest, morally motivated apples in. We just need to educate ourselves against the undermining and prejudice to make the propaganda ineffective, and give the alien races a chance to speak to us for themselves.

If the visiting races did not have respect and belief in us as a race, they would not even bother with this struggle, and certainly would not be taking such deliberate, patient care in their presentation to us.

posted on Aug, 7 2005 @ 09:43 AM
The problem with Shostak is that he has never actively searched for decent evidence. As he makes clear in his statements. When Shostak says " Lets look at the evidence." , what he is talking about in this paper is a couple of dubious photos.

Some of these objects appeared as out-of-focus lights, while others resembled hubcap-shaped Frisbees caught in mid-trajectory.

Since the former are perforce ambiguous, the latter commanded more of my attention.

He then goes on to discount all " “expert testimony.” Saying that claims this extraordinary requires additional evidence , and doesn't tell his readers what that means.

He closes his arguement with goofy statements like this, "The burden of proof is on those making the claims, not those who find the data dubious." Shostak should know as well as anyone that this is not a Trial in a court of Law , this is a debate , and as such there is no burden of proof! All the debate has been about since '68 is does the evidence warrant further investigation or not.

Maybe Shostak should put down the "Flying Saucer" photos , and figure out exactly what it is showing up on radars around the world, he is after all a Radio Astronomer is he not?

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